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visceril posted:And if Charlemagne hadn't divided up his kingdom in the Frankish custom, Europe and the entire world would be a very different place. Him being a short-sighted idiot truly altered the course of history.
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Jan 6, 2014 22:15
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to stay on topic
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Shibawanko posted:The Hebertists weren't really to the left of Robespierre, unless you think of atheism as leftist. At that end of the spectrum terms like "more leftist" become meaningless anyway, they all wanted redistribution of property, their differences were mostly about the definition of virtue and truth and so on.
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Jan 6, 2014 22:18
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Hob_Gadling posted:Right, this is exactly what I mean. People who vote SD don't believe this. You're essentially saying "no, you are wrong" and that's not a message voters will eat up. In Belgium, it happened more than 20 years ago  A lot of western European countries, since the 90's, and even more so after 9/11, have a politcal culture dominated by a focus on immigration and racist discourse. The right in Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, France, Italy... basically kept repeating a certain historical narrative about immigration and cultural difference. It has now become accepted as a basic truth by almost everyone, from state media to all of the mainstream parties. It goes like this: "Our beautiful country in Western Europe has built a strong welfare system after WWII. This has made us attractive to people who live in foreign countries. We allowed unchecked immigration from Muslim countries since the 60's. They have become overly dependent on welfare and undermine the progressive liberal culture and society we have built over the years. The mainstream parties have always adopted a policy of tolerance and multiculturalism, which clearly doesn't work, because young muslims are radicalizing, or turn to crime. We, [insert name of populist far-right party] are the first party to actually name the problems of ordinary people, people who are afraid of petty thievery in their formerly white working class community." Note that this "era of progressivism" never existed. It is simply a straw man to attack everyone to the left of the "immigration realist right". This strategy has been remarkably succesful, something which may not be immediately noticeable to someone who just looks up electoral trends over the years. As I said, almost all parties (including in a lot of cases the traditional social-democrats) have adopted this narrative as a basic assumption, and promise their voters "not to be as naive as they have been in the past on immigration", taking a more repressive line on petty crime. Often they introduce new "laws against radicalization", such as the Burqa ban (loudly addressing a problem that was not in any way, shape or form, an actually existing problem). An "interesting" (disgusting) effect is the usage of the word "allochtoon" in Dutch. Basically, it is a term (originally used for species of trees) meaning "foreigner". When you look at the wikipedia article, you'll read that "in the Netherlands (and Flanders), the term allochtoon is widely used to refer to immigrants and their descendants. Officially the term allochtoon is much more specific and refers to anyone who had at least one parent born outside the Netherlands." Because of hipocrisy, and legalism (referring to official statistical categories) the article doesn't mention the actual meaning of the word "allochtoon". It means 'undesirable foreigner'. An Australian who takes an engineering job in the Netherlands would never be considered an allochtoon by anyone, except maybe as a joke. A son of the son of a poor Turkish peasant who came to work in Limburg's mines, is still allochtoon. This usage is not restricted to the private sphere (as it might be in the US or the UK), but is actually very widespread in the media and politics. Antwan3K fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Jan 7, 2014 |
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Jan 7, 2014 03:09
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Is part of the problem with immigration that skilled immigration is extremely difficult and the lion's share of immigrants are asylum seekers bringing a boatload of social problems along with them? European countries could easily get a lot of skilled immigrants from OECD countries if their immigration policies weren't so terribly restrictive.
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Jan 7, 2014 04:36
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on the left posted:Is part of the problem with immigration that skilled immigration is extremely difficult and the lion's share of immigrants are asylum seekers bringing a boatload of social problems along with them? Am I misunderstanding you? This isn't even remotely true, asylum seekers make up a tiny part of immigration unless you live in the middle eastern countries nearer there origin where ~60% of them go.
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Jan 7, 2014 07:00
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Praseodymi posted:Am I misunderstanding you? This isn't even remotely true, asylum seekers make up a tiny part of immigration unless you live in the middle eastern countries nearer there origin where ~60% of them go. Is this true if you don't count inter-EU migration?
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Jan 7, 2014 07:25
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Are we talking about asylum seekers or all migrants?
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Jan 7, 2014 07:40
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on the left posted:Is part of the problem with immigration that skilled immigration is extremely difficult and the lion's share of immigrants are asylum seekers bringing a boatload of social problems along with them? No.
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Jan 7, 2014 12:05
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It's really surprising how often immigrants are painted as lazy ungrateful moochers. A huge number of immigrants run their own businesses and employ a large amount of family in these businesses. Pizza places, restaurants, odd little stores where you can buy a huge assortment of exotic foods and spices. The entrepreneur spirit is strong in immigrants, sure there are cultural differences but they can be worked through, the loud and problematic extremists are a tiny minority. Two years ago I was visiting my mom who is a teacher. She's been giving an Iranien engineer and his wife Danish language lessons in her private time and the husband had just recently been employed with a local branch of some oil company, something he was very grateful to my mom for since he used her as a reference and he felt her endorsement was a big reason he got the job. They were pleasent, quiet, 100% secular and I think a little shocked when the talk went to politics and they realised we were both socialists  Anyway. I think the largest impetus to integration right now is exactly the sort of rhetoric the right has been spewing for a decade now. It's no wonder people are distrustful of Danes when we've had scandals where the right wing government were actively (and illegally) blocking citizenship for a number of stranded Palestinians with no passports and no nationality.
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Jan 7, 2014 12:21
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Our strong-willed state secretary of Asylum policy and Integration (yes) recently bravely decided to send an 18-year old Afghan guy, who worked as a plumber (while we need plumbers badly) and spoke Dutch pretty well. People love it.
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Jan 7, 2014 14:10
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Antwan3K posted:Our strong-willed state secretary of Asylum policy and Integration (yes) recently bravely decided to send an 18-year old Afghan guy, who worked as a plumber (while we need plumbers badly) and spoke Dutch pretty well. People love it. Teeven is a fascist piece of poo poo and belongs in jail. Opstelten is probably dreaming of being the Orban of Holland. Shibawanko fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Jan 7, 2014 |
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Jan 7, 2014 22:20
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ekuNNN posted:No. Why not? US immigration policy is ruined by illegal immigration. We can't import smart skilled people because a bunch of the lowest rungs of Latin American society have immigrated illegally. It seems as though the immigration policy has become "You came and studied valuable skills in America and followed the rules? Get the gently caress out. If you jumped the border and had a couple DUIs that resulted in people dead, we will fight to make sure racist Sheriffs can't find out you are here illegally and turn you over to immigration, and will try to give you amnesty as soon as possible." When my Indian friends on H1Bs have a harder time getting a driver's license than an illegal immigrant, you know the system is broken.
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Jan 8, 2014 02:49
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Demiurge4 posted:It's really surprising how often immigrants are painted as lazy ungrateful moochers. A huge number of immigrants run their own businesses and employ a large amount of family in these businesses. Pizza places, restaurants, odd little stores where you can buy a huge assortment of exotic foods and spices. The entrepreneur spirit is strong in immigrants, sure there are cultural differences but they can be worked through, the loud and problematic extremists are a tiny minority. Here in England a study by the University College London showed that immigrants from the A8 countries (because of worries over Romanian and Bulgarian people migrating) actually worked harder than natives.  Dustmann, C., Frattini, T., & Halls, C. (2010). Assessing the Fiscal Costs and Benefits of A8 Migration to the UK. There is an updated version of this that came out in November but the charts aren't as nice. Praseodymi fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 03:15
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Shibawanko posted:Teeven is a fascist piece of poo poo and belongs in jail. While Teeven is certainly a pile of poo poo, I was referring to his Belgian (also liberal) colleague Maggie De Block.
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Jan 8, 2014 03:20
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on the left posted:Why not? Latin Americans have ruined the system because ______. (I'll give you a hint, Americans have been racist against immigrants for far longer than they have had a border with Mexico)
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Jan 8, 2014 04:31
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I think a point can be made that immigration and multiculturalism can lead to issues with identity and help fuel extremism if these things are managed badly. People start feeling like "strangers in their own country" to put a phrase to it. The Christianist terrorist, Anders Breivik, felt this way and blamed "cultural Marxists" for undermining Norwegian culture. Islamist extremism has found inroads among some children of immigrants, who grow up feeling torn between multiple identities and not fully accepted by their country, and instead of integrating like the vast majority of their peers, over-identify with their ancestors' culture to become "more Muslim than the Muslims." (This is why the people to watch out for are not Muslims at the mosque, but the kids who get kicked out.) There are also rare cases of former white supremacists converting to an extremist form of Islam. I'm not proposing any solutions, or saying immigration should be restricted or that certain practices by immigrants be banned like in France. But I think we need to take the concerns from people who are vulnerable to recruitment into extremist organizations seriously and find ways to manage it in a responsible (liberal consensus-based) manner. I think if we're going to look at Muslim youth and try to listen to their concerns and try to really address them so they don't feel alienated, then we need to reach out and engage with the whites as well. But no one is doing this so the far right is able to move into the vacuum and blast them with propaganda, sensationalism, alarmism about "thar immigants!" and so on. A great example of this is the United States, where the Democrats have built a governing coalition that no longer needs support among white men to win elections. They feel increasingly left out and alienated and are becoming more prone to recruitment into hate and extremist groups. We might look back and count ourselves lucky that the Tea Party absorbed most of this energy instead of it being channeled into another Oklahoma City bombing. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 05:19
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Omi-Polari posted:A great example of this is the United States, where the Democrats have built a governing coalition that no longer needs support among white men to win elections. They feel increasingly left out and alienated and are becoming more prone to recruitment into hate and extremist groups. We might look back and count ourselves lucky that the Tea Party absorbed most of this energy instead of it being channeled into another Oklahoma City bombing. They sure as poo poo do need white men, they just don't need a majority of them (white people are still 65% of the country and a higher percentage of the voting populace).
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Jan 8, 2014 05:32
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on the left posted:Why not? What the gently caress are you talking about.  There has been almost no action taken against incredibly racist law enforcement except when it conflicts with federal supremacy. Every proposed "amnesty" bill would actually function to maintain undocumented workers in a precarious position where they would still be incredibly vulnerable to corporate exploitation and have long and expensive paths to citizenship. Meanwhile, undocumented immigrant workers continue to face atrocious conditions, abuse which they have no easy legal remedy for, and constant fear of police/ICE raids separating them from their families, and the US is deporting record numbers of people. You know nothing about the situation for undocumented workers in the US and blaming anti-immigrant racism on them is an awful thing to do.quote:When my Indian friends on H1Bs have a harder time getting a driver's license than an illegal immigrant, you know the system is broken. Even if this was true, the solution wouldn't be to make life shittier for undocumented immigrants. Rogue0071 fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 05:34
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Rogue0071 posted:What the gently caress are you talking about. This is the situation in sanctuary cities. Police are not allowed to do anything related to a person's immigration status even if they commit a serious crime. Rogue0071 posted:Meanwhile, undocumented immigrant workers continue to face atrocious conditions, abuse which they have no easy legal remedy for, and constant fear of police/ICE raids separating them from their families, and the US is deporting record numbers of people. You know nothing about the situation for undocumented workers in the US and blaming anti-immigrant racism on them is an awful thing to do. I want to help illegal immigrants escape abusive situations by preventing illegal immigration in the first place and aggressively rooting out and deporting illegal immigrants. It's very possible to do, but the policy from both parties has been to turn a blind eye to it for different reasons. computer parts posted:Latin Americans have ruined the system because ______. Latin American immigration has ruined the system by creating every incentive to jump the line instead of complying with the law. As a result, the average American experience with an immigrant is someone from the bottom of the barrel of Latin American society, which creates support for curtailing skilled immigration in public opinion. We should be aggressively locking down the US southern border while at the same time handing out greencards to higher education graduates, but we are doing the opposite.
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Jan 8, 2014 06:21
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Omi-Polari posted:I think a point can be made that immigration and multiculturalism can lead to issues with identity and help fuel extremism if these things are managed badly. People start feeling like "strangers in their own country" to put a phrase to it. I don't know that immigration and multiculturalism are really the root cause of that so much as modernity in general.
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Jan 8, 2014 06:23
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on the left posted:This is the situation in sanctuary cities. Police are not allowed to do anything related to a person's immigration status even if they commit a serious crime.
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Jan 8, 2014 06:28
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on the left posted:This is the situation in sanctuary cities. Police are not allowed to do anything related to a person's immigration status even if they commit a serious crime. Sanctuary cities are a very limited development with an uncertain legal basis and are facing increasing pushback from state- and federal-level bodies. It also applies only to city resources. Presenting them as representative and comprehensive protection for immigrants is quite dishonest. quote:I want to help illegal immigrants escape abusive situations by preventing illegal immigration in the first place and aggressively rooting out and deporting illegal immigrants. It's very possible to do, but the policy from both parties has been to turn a blind eye to it for different reasons. The very presence of deportation policies is what permits such enormous abuse. Immigrant workers cannot complain, protest, or strike against abusive conditions because they would face deportation proceedings. There are more than 11 million undocumented immigrants in the US, deporting them all would be incredibly destructive to millions of families, leave millions of (US citizen) children without parents, cause enormous economic harm, and be logistically unfeasible even ignoring the human and economic impacts. quote:Latin American immigration has ruined the system by creating every incentive to jump the line instead of complying with the law. As a result, the average American experience with an immigrant is someone from the bottom of the barrel of Latin American society, which creates support for curtailing skilled immigration in public opinion. We should be aggressively locking down the US southern border while at the same time handing out greencards to higher education graduates, but we are doing the opposite. This is a bunch of bullshit. Living as an undocumented worker in the US is perilous, degrading, and unstable. Your continual slander of immigrants as "the lowest rungs", "bottom of the barrel", etc. is racist stereotyping. The source of anti-immigrant rhetoric isn't inferiority of undocumented immigrants, it's reactionary bigots like you. Rogue0071 fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 06:37
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Rogue0071 posted:Your continual slander of immigrants as "the lowest rungs", "bottom of the barrel", etc. is racist stereotyping. It's not racist stereotyping unless you can point out where all the middle/upper-class and/or highly-educated illegal immigrants are. Illegal immigrants aren't immigrating to the US because things are going great at home.
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Jan 8, 2014 06:44
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I don't know that immigration and multiculturalism are really the root cause of that so much as modernity in general.
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Jan 8, 2014 06:51
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on the left posted:It's not racist stereotyping unless you can point out where all the middle/upper-class and/or highly-educated illegal immigrants are. Illegal immigrants aren't immigrating to the US because things are going great at home. Terms like "bottom of the barrel" have pretty clear connotations beyond socioeconomic status. There are also plenty of undocumented univeristy students, business owners, members of the military, etc. Even those who aren't - so what? They are still human beings. No one deserves to live in fear. Deporting 11 million people is not a solution.
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Jan 8, 2014 06:54
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Rogue0071 posted:Terms like "bottom of the barrel" have pretty clear connotations beyond socioeconomic status. It's simply acknowledgement of the realities of illegal immigration. Rogue0071 posted:Deporting 11 million people is not a solution. Deporting 11 million is not a solution, but cutting off the money by actually enforcing labor laws and "know your customer" laws at banks and money-remittance institutions is pretty effective. As a bonus to people with fake social security cards, seize bank accounts where the social security number does not match a name in the name of tax avoidance.
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Jan 8, 2014 07:11
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on the left posted:It's simply acknowledgement of the realities of illegal immigration.  Tell me more about this 'racial realism'. I'm sure we can expand it to talking about the realities of welfare queens and Roma thieves, like those other nice gentlemen mentioned in this thread have been bringing up.quote:Deporting 11 million is not a solution, but cutting off the money by actually enforcing labor laws and "know your customer" laws at banks and money-remittance institutions is pretty effective. As a bonus to people with fake social security cards, seize bank accounts where the social security number does not match a name in the name of tax avoidance. I know what will help reduce the abuse and exploitation of immigrant workers: let's make it so that they can't save money and are forced into even more exploitative under-the-table jobs. Also, immigrants with fake SS numbers are paying into the system without ever drawing from their contributions, that is 'tax avoidance'? Rogue0071 fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 07:26
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Rogue0071 posted:I know what will help reduce the abuse and exploitation of immigrant workers: let's make it so that they can't save money and are forced into even more exploitative under-the-table jobs. Also, immigrants with fake SS numbers are paying into the system without ever drawing from their contributions, that is 'tax avoidance'? How dare we enforce our laws. 
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Jan 8, 2014 07:39
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on the left posted:How dare we enforce our laws. Who cares if our policies would lead to slavery? It's the law. Previously in US history: quote:I don't get why people are so upset about the Fugitive Slave Act. How dare we enforce our laws. quote:I don't get why people are so upset about the war on drugs. How dare we enforce our laws. Rogue0071 fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 07:45
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Here's an easy illegal immigration fix. 1. Eliminate the 2. Give green cards to all illegal immigrants currently residing in the country 3. Fix the path to citizenship so it isn't the clusterfuck it is today. Pretty simple system but for some reason some people don't like the idea of a bunch of Mexicans being around. e; adjusted some things. Raskolnikov38 fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 08:20
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If enforcing a law causes more problems for society than not enforcing it, it's a sign that it may be a bad law.
Lycus fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 08:22
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Yeah, there are plenty of unenforceable and unworkable laws out there, and the US immigration quota with Mexico and Central America still is one of them. It is way too late to deport anyone seriously, the best solution at this point is amnesty and try to get them integrated into the tax system and social insurance system. I doubt the quota system will necessarily end, but the way it works now is just unrealistic. If you want people to use the legal immigration system you need some type of workable way for them get into the country. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 08:23
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"Anti-immigrant" racism in Europe is primarily focused on those that do have the nationality though. They are seen as leeching on social welfare systems. I put anti-immigrant in quotes because a lot of it is actually geared towards their children or grandchildren. The grandparents in question often immigrated in official waves from different countries. Belgium first imported Italian workers for mines (in return Italy was allowed to buy coal at market rates), but the Italian government stopped this after a mining disaster. The first miners were also housed in barracks that were previously used by the Nazi's for POWs. The government then turned to Morocco and Turkey. Turkish and Moroccan immigrants are where the largest amount of racism is focussed here. The precise composition of immigrant communities and thus focus of racist stereotyping varies strongly, depending on different countries' colonial and industrial history, of course. Antwan3K fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 16:29
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on the left posted:Why not? I know a poo poo-load of highly educated immigrants to the Netherlands and they just have to have a job, stay here for 7 years (recently changed from 5 years) and complete the inburgeringscursus to become citizens. Also lots of forms. on the left posted:US immigration policy is ruined by illegal immigration. We can't import smart skilled people because a bunch of the lowest rungs of Latin American society have immigrated illegally. This is dumb racist garbage. The immigrants aren't the problem, your lovely laws and idiotic political system are the problem. Shibawanko posted:Teeven is a fascist piece of poo poo and belongs in jail. Empty-quotin' dis 
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Jan 8, 2014 17:54
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Europe is racist as poo poo and as a minority I've never felt welcomed anywhere there, with the sole exception of the UK, probably cause they have a hard-on for Americans and especially American Minorities, anyway, point being I think it's a lost cause and I'm not sure why anyone would even bother with anti-fascist action there. Just let them go all nationalist and kill the gently caress out of each other as they've been doing for basically all of history. Travelling through Spain and especially Holland were the absolute worst, I have no idea how the Dutch have managed to cultivate a reputation for tolerance, whatsoever. e: on the left posted:When my Indian friends on H1Bs have a harder time getting a driver's license than an illegal immigrant, you know the system is broken. cargo cult fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 18:32
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cargo cult posted:Europe is racist as poo poo and as a minority I've never felt welcomed anywhere there, with the sole exception of the UK, probably cause they have a hard-on for Americans and especially American Minorities, anyway, point being I think it's a lost cause and I'm not sure why anyone would even bother with anti-fascist action there. Just let them go all nationalist and kill the gently caress out of each other as they've been doing for basically all of history. Travelling through Spain and especially Holland were the absolute worst, I have no idea how the Dutch have managed to cultivate a reputation for tolerance, whatsoever. But poo poo, I got rocks thrown at me from the age of seven in the town I grew up in because I'm of jewish heritage. I'm otherwise pale as gently caress and used to have brown-blonde hair but that didn't help me jack poo poo. EDIT: I won't let them go all nationalist because there's a shitload of us who despite nationalism and fascism who'd die before they'd start fighting eachother.
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Jan 8, 2014 19:11
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Rutkowski posted:But poo poo, I got rocks thrown at me from the age of seven in the town I grew up in because I'm of jewish heritage. I'm otherwise pale as gently caress and used to have brown-blonde hair but that didn't help me jack poo poo. While this is a horrible thing to have happen to any child. Most anti semitic attacks in my country (Denmark) are perpetrated not by Ethnic Danes with Nazi ties but rather Muslims typically of Arab heritage. It's actually a huge problem. I personally know of 2 people from my old school that got attacked several times because of their jewish heritage. All the times the attackers were Arab. I also worked at a center for at risk youth which mainly dealt with children of immigrants and anti semitism was a huge problem there. I heard similar stories from the other Scandinavian countries as well as France and England.
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Jan 8, 2014 19:38
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Of course the treatment of the Roma is always the elephant in the room regarding European racial relations, but they don't generally count as
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Jan 8, 2014 19:50
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cargo cult posted:Europe is racist as poo poo and as a minority I've never felt welcomed anywhere there, with the sole exception of the UK, probably cause they have a hard-on for Americans and especially American Minorities, anyway, point being I think it's a lost cause and I'm not sure why anyone would even bother with anti-fascist action there. Just let them go all nationalist and kill the gently caress out of each other as they've been doing for basically all of history. Travelling through Spain and especially Holland were the absolute worst, I have no idea how the Dutch have managed to cultivate a reputation for tolerance, whatsoever. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience, but this post is idiotic.
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Jan 8, 2014 19:53
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Old news but ya. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/11/26/supreme-court-orders-obama-admin-to-respond-to-german-homeschooling-familys-deportation-appeal/
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Jan 8, 2014 20:01
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