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Hieronymous Alloy posted:My pet theory is that the Merlin fired off a massive entropy curse at the Red Court, and suspected Harry would be the instrument that let it take effect. This is both something I'd never thought of and right up the Merlin's alley. He doesn't leave things to chance if he can help it, and Harry's kind of a wrecking ball. I don't think he'd be very happy if that 1. is actually how it went down and 2. he found out about it.
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Jan 21, 2014 17:08
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DrFrankenStrudel posted:I'm inclined to say they meant a more conventional drop of the hammer at a critical moment rather than an "I win" superweapon. Nah, that way was clearly the work of motherfucking Odin. docbeard posted:This is my guess, though I'd never thought of him being part of the Grey Council. (It makes sense, though.) Let's not forget his asteroid-wielding grandpapabear. The Merlin is almost certainly in on it.
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Jan 21, 2014 17:13
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apostateCourier posted:This is both something I'd never thought of and right up the Merlin's alley. He doesn't leave things to chance if he can help it, and Harry's kind of a wrecking ball.
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Jan 21, 2014 18:06
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Changes/Merlin talk While I could see Merlin playing the long game and setting up Dresden to be his weapon, the arrival of the Grey council is more the work of Winter (Lea) and Odin. When Ebenezer is asked about the arrival, he comments that their "Elders ran a game on them" while looking at Odin. I really doubt that the crotchety old man Ebenezer would refer to Merlin as his Elder. As weakened as he is with less followers, Odin is still immensely powerful and when combined with the powers of winter, probably more than powerful enough to make a direct tear through the never never to wherever they want. Keep in mind Mab shutdown ALL the paths out of Nevernever earlier in the book by herself, and she was likely supplementing power to Lea during the battle.
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Jan 21, 2014 18:27
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And keep in mind that Thomas can drop out of the nevernever anywhere, so long as it's a strip club
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Jan 21, 2014 19:34
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Those of you worrying that James Marsters wouldn't be narrating Skin Game:James Marsters - The Official Page posted:Heading to the studio soon to record the next Dresden Files SKIN GAME!
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Jan 21, 2014 20:01
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apostateCourier posted:This is both something I'd never thought of and right up the Merlin's alley. He doesn't leave things to chance if he can help it, and Harry's kind of a wrecking ball. I don't think he'd be very happy if that 1. is actually how it went down and 2. he found out about it. That sound likely. A giant entropy curse, and then let the existing disaster dominoes fall upon the victim. And not easily traced back to the source either.
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Jan 21, 2014 21:14
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veekie posted:That sound likely. A giant entropy curse, and then let the existing disaster dominoes fall upon the victim. And not easily traced back to the source either. Seems like something Ebenezer would have known about. And like I said, the Merlin may be no Morgan, but all indications are that he believes in the laws of magic, same as Harry. Even if he is a politician.
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Jan 21, 2014 21:20
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Donraj posted:Seems like something Ebenezer would have known about. And like I said, the Merlin may be no Morgan, but all indications are that he believes in the laws of magic, same as Harry. Even if he is a politician. Laws of magic wouldn't block an entropy curse aimed squarely at killing vampires. It would be really risky due to the danger of collateral damage to innocents, but as long as you weren't intentionally killing them with magic . . .
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Jan 21, 2014 21:41
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Laws of magic wouldn't block an entropy curse aimed squarely at killing vampires. It would be really risky due to the danger of collateral damage to innocents, but as long as you weren't intentionally killing them with magic . . . Intention, quite explicitly, doesn't mean jack poo poo when it comes to the laws of magic. That's pretty much the plot of Proven Guilty.
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Jan 21, 2014 22:16
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Small Favor, Turn Coat, and Changes are just such a great 1-2-3 punch. They're all my favorite, existing as a single entity. Oh my god, Turn Coat. I think writing a martyr's death something not many people can do well. It's so easy to just post a dude in a hallway against overwhelming odds and have him die so the heroes can get away, but Morgan's sacrifice is just so much heavier. He doesn't give a hot poo poo about his life, but he willing lets the entire concept of Warden Morgan be utterly and errevokably unmade so that the counsil can remain strong at a critical juncture. No statue, not even a proper funeral. Hard. loving. Core. It's pretty crazy to see how Harry goes from clashing with him, to a grudging respect, to a mutual understanding, to practically holding the same opinions as him by Cold Days. Mr. Bad Guy fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 22:18
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Laws of magic wouldn't block an entropy curse aimed squarely at killing vampires. It would be really risky due to the danger of collateral damage to innocents, but as long as you weren't intentionally killing them with magic . . . On the other hand, if anyone can make a precision entropy curse, it's the Merlin. The one time we've seen him cut loose with magic, it wasn't a big flashy display, it was the magical equivalent of juggling twenty knives while riding a unicycle. The more I think about this theory, the more I like it.
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Jan 21, 2014 22:33
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ConfusedUs posted:Intention, quite explicitly, doesn't mean jack poo poo when it comes to the laws of magic. That's pretty much the plot of Proven Guilty. At least how I read it, it does, but for a more legalistic view of "intent" than you might be thinking of. If you cast a spell trying to kill a vampire and it has a human hostage and you know it, or suspect it, then you're intentionally targeting a human being, and that's Bad! Because you intended to kill a human being and that stains your soul -- even if you had "good intentions." But if you send a fireball at a vampire and at the last minute the vampire magically summons a human baby and throws it, blocking the fireball, you haven't intentionally killed a human being with magic and more importantly never had the intent to kill or harm or risk harm to a human being with magic. I could be wrong about all that but the way I read it what matters is intent in a legal sense -- not "good intentions" vs "bad intentions" but "did you intend the specific action to take place or was it accidental." You can probably still kill human beings *accidentally* with magic and not violate the Laws, so long as it's a true accident and you aren't taking undue risks. Which for someone of the Merlin's skill level, almost nobody would be able to judge -- except the Merlin. Which is enough of a gray area with a mega-sized entropy curse that it would explain both the Merlin's reluctance and his final willingness. If Butcher went that route. I mean, hell, under that argument, did the Merlin kill Susan by magic? Was she human when he did?
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Jan 21, 2014 22:57
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I mean, hell, under that argument, did the Merlin kill Susan by magic? Was she human when he did? Technically no, because when she died she wasn't human.
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Jan 21, 2014 23:00
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Harry accidentally killed a bunch of people with magic fire and wasn't executed for it so clearly there's a point where magic manslaughter doesn't matter.
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Jan 21, 2014 23:16
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First, there were Laws of Magic. Now, we have Lawyers of Magic. 
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Jan 21, 2014 23:24
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Error 404 posted:First, there were Laws of Magic. This is inevitable and not even a bad thing. The law must he interpreted!
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Jan 21, 2014 23:40
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sirtommygunn posted:Harry accidentally killed a bunch of people with magic fire and wasn't executed for it so clearly there's a point where magic manslaughter doesn't matter. If you're referring to the Grave Peril incident, there are some mitigating factors. 1) Some, possibly all of those people were dead or dying already. Living people tend to thrash and scream in an inferno. 2) They may not have died from magic fire, but mundane fire started by magic fire. That's where he probably got away from that. That and the White Council wasn't really going to be prosecuting him during the opening volleys of the war.
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Jan 21, 2014 23:40
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ZorajitZorajit posted:That and the White Council wasn't really going to be prosecuting him during the opening volleys of the war. They sort of did. It just didn't take.
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Jan 21, 2014 23:48
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docbeard posted:On the other hand, if anyone can make a precision entropy curse, it's the Merlin. The one time we've seen him cut loose with magic, it wasn't a big flashy display, it was the magical equivalent of juggling twenty knives while riding a unicycle. Knives made out of magical uranium, even. I hope we get to see more senior council members cutting lose in the next books.
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Jan 22, 2014 00:40
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docbeard posted:On the other hand, if anyone can make a precision entropy curse, it's the Merlin. The one time we've seen him cut loose with magic, it wasn't a big flashy display, it was the magical equivalent of juggling twenty knives while riding a unicycle. It's pretty neat actually. Nobody was killed as a result of the curse if it existed, but there are peripheral deaths which resulted from the choices of humans and vampires who were already going to make those choices to begin with. All it needed to do is to put one person, in the right place, at the right time, to do all the wrong things of his own free will.
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Jan 22, 2014 12:24
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I don't know why people think Merlin was responsible for the entropy curse? Wasn't it the big daddy vampire lord?
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Jan 22, 2014 13:35
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The current theory is that Harry made it to the Red Court ritual at the right place, at the right time, to set off the ritual in such a manner that it would destroy every Red Court vampire up the bloodline of their newest member. It's a series of unfortunate events that combined to look like a very skilled entropy curse. Suspicious factors: -The Grey Council strike force is already in position to support the assault, they had entire armies in position, and at least one god. -Harry suffers a major injury, which forces him to tap into one of his major power sources. Winter was it, but without one of these power ups, he couldn't have made it through the fight. -The Council somehow falls for a suckerpunch by the Red Court delivered through their emissary. Harry arrives at exactly the right time get get maximally pissed off. -Harry suffered an unfortunate time loss when he was forced to enter the Nevernever and say hello to the Erlking. A time loss which put him at precisely the right time to co-opt the ritual instead of interrupting it like he was planning. If Harry had left on schedule the ritual wouldn't even fire. -Harry then acquired an appropriate ritual implement to perform the sacrifice, retaining it through the chaos of the battle. -Harry makes it through the whole battle mostly intact, and is pushed by the flow of battle and his objective towards the place of sacrifice. -Susan turns, then and there due to Martin. -Harry has the right weapon, the right place, the right time and the right sacrifice. Either there is a wide spanning alliance between Winter, Grey Council, Odin, Martin and Erlking, or the entire thing is one elaborate entropy curse aimed at putting Harry in the place to do maximum damage. Those with the known means and motive to perform this curse would be: -Senior Council effort. Magic wise it's immensely complex to make such a spell, but it would be only moderately heavy lifting. It's all about perfect timing. -Winter's doing. You know...Mab and Titania hadn't paid the Red Court back for their insult for violating their territory way back during Dead Beat. veekie fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Jan 22, 2014 |
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Jan 22, 2014 13:58
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If narrative coincidence doesn't lead to a suspension of disbelief, there's no need for a deus ex machina. If you start looking for "suspicious factors" like those in any novel, you'll find them all over the place.
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Jan 22, 2014 14:19
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"I expect you to skin them alive." It's really easy to believe Changes was Winter taking Harry out for a Test Drive Before Purchase. Anias fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Jan 22, 2014 |
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Jan 22, 2014 14:19
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I thought Harry knew it was an entropy curse well before turning up?
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Jan 22, 2014 14:24
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veekie posted:The current theory is that Harry made it to the Red Court ritual at the right place, at the right time, to set off the ritual in such a manner that it would destroy every Red Court vampire up the bloodline of their newest member. It's a series of unfortunate events that combined to look like a very skilled entropy curse. Lots more little details even than that, from Harry slipping and falling while he was climbing the ladder, to the conversation(s) with Ebenezer giving each other exactly the right/wrong information at exactly the right/wrong times.
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Jan 22, 2014 14:51
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ConfusedUs posted:Intention, quite explicitly, doesn't mean jack poo poo when it comes to the laws of magic. That's pretty much the plot of Proven Guilty. Gonna have to disagree with you there boss. The point of Proven Guilty is that Good Intentions don't justify intentionally violating the Laws of Magic, not that Good Intentions don't justify accidentally violating the Laws of Magic.
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Jan 22, 2014 14:52
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WastedJoker posted:I thought Harry knew it was an entropy curse well before turning up? We're discussing a second Entropy curse meant to, essentially, re-target the first one.
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Jan 22, 2014 14:57
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veekie posted:Either there is a wide spanning alliance between Winter, Grey Council, Odin, Martin and Erlking, or the entire thing is one elaborate entropy curse aimed at putting Harry in the place to do maximum damage. Those with the known means and motive to perform this curse would be: There is, it occurs to me, one other player who's powerful enough to have pulled this off, has made a major investment in Harry and has taken serious steps to keep him both alive and free, and is known for working very subtly (and deniably), largely because he isn't allowed to do anything else. We're told several times that Uriel is essentially the heavenly equivalent of the CIA, and this would be one hell (no pun intended) of a way to demonstrate it.
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Jan 22, 2014 15:53
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WastedJoker posted:I don't know why people think Merlin was responsible for the entropy curse? Wasn't it the big daddy vampire lord? The talk about entropy cursing in the thread is speculation about the book Changes and if Harry could be the Merlin's guided frozen turkey missile. Raygereio fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Jan 22, 2014 |
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Jan 22, 2014 16:09
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Lots of people in here are saying that the RC ritual was an entropy curse. It wasn't. It was the direct kill heart ripping curse from Storm Front, just with the power to travel up bloodlines.
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Jan 22, 2014 17:03
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Rygar201 posted:Lots of people in here are saying that the RC ritual was an entropy curse. It wasn't. It was the direct kill heart ripping curse from Storm Front, just with the power to travel up bloodlines. I don't think anyone was saying that the RC ritual was an entropy curse though? People have been saying that that somebody fired off an entropy curse at the Red Court and, as was already said, Harry was the frozen turkey falling out of the sky.
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Jan 22, 2014 17:07
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AllTerrineVehicle posted:I don't think anyone was saying that the RC ritual was an entropy curse though? People have been saying that that somebody fired off an entropy curse at the Red Court and, as was already said, Harry was the frozen turkey falling out of the sky. Someone got confused with the discussion about Merlin casting an entropy (Bad luck) curse on the red council versus Grave Peril entropy curse. WastedJoker posted:I don't know why people think Merlin was responsible for the entropy curse? Wasn't it the big daddy vampire lord?
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Jan 22, 2014 17:09
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Basically, it comes down to one line where the Merlin pops in at the beginning of Changes, mutters he has a plan for a massive strike that will wipe them all out and tells Harry to stand down. Two things leap out about this. 1. What's changed in the war that the Merlin suddenly has the power to "wipe them all out"? Not stop the war, but explicitly wipe them all out - which is what happens? 2. He tells Harry to stand down. The Merlin drat well knows that is winding Harry up and pointing him right at the situation.
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Jan 22, 2014 17:19
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If the Merlin could have done this why wait until Changes to do it?
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Jan 22, 2014 18:40
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The political shifts from the previous book destabilized the Council enough that he felt it was worth the risk? The Merlin is nothing if not conservative and calculated. I don't personally think that the Merlin cast such a spell, but the timing isn't unreasonable.
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Jan 22, 2014 18:45
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Maybe the Merlin has his own grey council or ministry of ungentlemanly warfare. That sad, it's not really necessary for a in-universe curse to explain narrative coincidences when the fact is that the story was written from the ground up for it to work this way by an author. Maybe the entire series is the result of a geas cast on the Dresden bloodline by Margaret Lefay and Satan himself!!!!!
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Jan 22, 2014 19:03
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I've decided that entropy curses are my second favorite in-universe explanation for plot armor/deus ex machina/narrative convenience. After being ta'veren.
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Jan 22, 2014 19:15
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Avalerion posted:If the Merlin could have done this why wait until Changes to do it? Well, if the enemy makes a really big bomb, and they have it in their HQ, it'd be almost criminal not to take advantage of that.
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Jan 22, 2014 19:15
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