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Goodreads is one of the more insulated, smaller social media platforms out there. A better indicator would be his Amazon ranks - none of which are higher than 8,000. A niche author receiving a contract means nothing. It's good for him, and his fans, but it doesn't really speak to how widely read it is. First Law is in a small subgenre of an already not widely read genre. It also has nothing to do with any of my grievances towards the book, but if you think it's sold enough copies to be considered widely read enough to form some sort of universal consensus on it's quality I don't know what to tell you. Captain Amerikkka fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Jan 27, 2014 |
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Jan 27, 2014 15:19
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Captain Amerikkka posted:Goodreads is one of the more insulated, smaller social media platforms out there. A better indicator would be his Amazon ranks - none of which are higher than 8,000. Amazon is a general retailer, of course a fantasy book series that hasn't been adapted into anything isn't going to be huge there. My point is that the Goodreads page has the sort of people who would normally pick up this sort of book in the first place, and its overwhelmingly positive. Anyway everyone is entitled to their opinion and blah blah blah but it would be nice if you stopped overdoing your posts to get reactions and respond to the multiple people that have asked you for more specifics on why you didn't like this series.
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Jan 28, 2014 00:03
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Captain Amerikkka posted:Which gives you what? Basically a bunch of archetypes with 0 value in terms of characterization. Did you even read the same books we did? Abercrombie's characters are interesting, realistic, and compelling. Logen is an warrior whose past keeps him rooted to his murderous ways despite his sincere desire to leave them behind. Maybe I'm not well read in fantasy "pulp" but I don't think "Humble, keen-minded, insightful, regret-filled Northern warrior who is trying to leave behind the bloody reputation he earned because he turns into a frothing madman unable to discern friend from enemy and finds that people around him keep using him to do violence" is a worn out trope. If you don't feel for Logen's situation in life you've obviously never tried to get rid of a past reputation when all people around you want to do is keep digging it up. Logen isn't a pathetic loser in any sense in the word, just a man trying to live a life that is an anathema to him. Jezal starts out a spoiled dandy who cares about nothing and no one except his name and his daddy's money. More than anything he just wants to be king so people will simper and bow to him. Through the book he, more than anyone, gets exactly what he wants, but by the third book he has changed so much he doesn't want anymore. He is an extremely dynamic character, starting the book as easily the most detestable character, but by the end becomes perhaps the only character that can be called noble or virtuous. Sure, he has his flaws, and at the beginning is absolutely a pathetic loser, but he becomes one of the most upright and genuinely caring people we've seen. He gains courage and a strong sympathy towards the common people. You say the whole book he just complains about his jaw and Ardee or whatever, but you can just as easily say "Macbeth is such a uninteresting archetype. A noble warrior who has ambitions but constantly obsesses about the bad things he's done" if you want to be reductive about it. Glokta is, I guess, what you could say a "fall from grace" trope, but again it's not like it's so played out that you see him and say "Oh I know exactly what's going to happen". He has tons of good qualities, particularly his ambivalence for his own life and an insight that people around him lack. He's a great character because he has a total lack of ambition, and yet somehow manages to survive despite not giving a poo poo if he dies. He also changes throughout the book, particularly in his treatment of women and his own views about his misfortune. You seem him treat women much kinder then men, and it comes back to bite him in the rear end, and by the end even that once chivalrous part of his past has withered. But parallel to that you seem him realize that he was not so abandoned as he once thought he was, particularly in connection with West. Bayaz is obviously the biggest example of an inverted trope, but it's done so well. Throughout the books we’re made to see Bayaz as this great wizard, wise and mighty in the High Art, benevolent protector of the Union, and then at the end we realize he’s just as dickish as everyone else in the book, just a lot more powerful. Bayaz may not actually change throughout the book, being a conniving rear end in a top hat through its entirety, but we're not shown that, so to us the reveal is the same as him changing. Because of this character people seem to look too hard at the "inverted trope" theme in his books and just try to apply it to everything in there and say “Oh that’s so overdone”. Also, you said “This just seems like Abercrombie is writing his own worldview in books”. Yep. That’s pretty much what every fiction author since the beginning of time has down, write down what he knows to be true. You think King Lear was about anything other than the perils of old age and familial relationships, you think Hamlet didn’t have anything to do with the death of Shakespeare’s youngest son? If you like books that support your worldview go find something written by a soldier. Of course these books display what Abercrombie believes to be true, that’s the goal of fiction. I’ve been to college too, and I remember that time when I started reading a lot and listening to my professors and thinking I had some awesome views on literature. Keep at it and you’ll figure out that being contrary just to hear your own voice doesn’t make you a forward thinker or unique, it usually just makes you look like you don’t know what you’re talking about
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Jan 28, 2014 10:55
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Tequila Sunrise posted:Did you even read the same books we did? Abercrombie's characters are interesting, realistic, and compelling. I think it's safe to say that the good Captain doesn't get it. Especially as one of his complaints was that Abercrombie's work is bad because it disregards the classic hero's journey structure.
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Jan 28, 2014 20:02
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BananaNutkins posted:I think it's safe to say that the good Captain doesn't get it. Especially as one of his complaints was that Abercrombie's work is bad because it disregards the classic hero's journey structure. Yeah its strange how fixed he is on that one complaint which seems to make him hate the books as a whole.
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Jan 29, 2014 03:23
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Tequila Sunrise posted:Logen is an warrior whose past keeps him rooted to his murderous ways despite his sincere desire to leave them behind. I think it's more that Logen wants to want to be different, he genuinely enjoys being the legendary Bloody Nine and the very second he finds himself back in that environment he is fully back to his old ways. The second he runs into other Northmen he is embracing his reputation as the baddest of the bad and constantly threatening violence to get his way, implicitly or explicitly. His desire to leave his murderous ways behind is not at all sincere, which was the whole thrust of his arc. He is completely full of poo poo, and the friendliness he occasionally displays is closer to a means of passing the time than an actual desire for change. It makes him realistic in the sense that even a monster would have moments of humanity, and charisma, and a desire not to be completely alone, but at the end of the day Bethod had him pegged. He loves being the baddest scariest motherfucker to ever walk the circle of the earth, but being more than that makes him a much more real character. It's like he tells Shy, when he god home and the farm was burning and everyone was dead he was glad not sad, because he knew what comes next.
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Jan 29, 2014 14:14
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I think that does him too little credit. Spending years in a completely anodyne persona takes strength of will and desire. Even during Red Country he clearly is scared shitless of what he might do when his blood his up or, worse, he is possessed. Yeah, he likes it... But being feared is much better than being treated as a meek joke. I don't think anyone needs to heap invective on his character to understand that.
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Jan 29, 2014 14:20
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Unrelated to the current discussion, but I've decided to name my next smoking piece Threetrees.
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Jan 29, 2014 18:51
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Blind Melon posted:I think it's more that Logen wants to want to be different, he genuinely enjoys being the legendary Bloody Nine and the very second he finds himself back in that environment he is fully back to his old ways. The second he runs into other Northmen he is embracing his reputation as the baddest of the bad and constantly threatening violence to get his way, implicitly or explicitly. His desire to leave his murderous ways behind is not at all sincere, which was the whole thrust of his arc. He is completely full of poo poo, and the friendliness he occasionally displays is closer to a means of passing the time than an actual desire for change. It makes him realistic in the sense that even a monster would have moments of humanity, and charisma, and a desire not to be completely alone, but at the end of the day Bethod had him pegged. He loves being the baddest scariest motherfucker to ever walk the circle of the earth, but being more than that makes him a much more real character. It's like he tells Shy, when he god home and the farm was burning and everyone was dead he was glad not sad, because he knew what comes next. I read Logen more as a recovering alcoholic, except that his alcohol is violence. He doesnt want to get back to his old ways, and in Red Country he becomes "Lamb" to avoid even getting a taste of it. Every alcoholic is afraid of taking a single drink, because they know, that even that small taste could easily re-ignite their thirst for more, and then they wont want to stay sober anymore.
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Jan 30, 2014 02:07
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You guys are too harsh on Logen, who does he kill that doesn't have it coming to them during the books while he's not possessed by some crazy rear end demon? He keeps trying to lead a peaceful life but when he gets sucked back into violence he's only killing other guys who are trying to kill him or are kidnapping kids or whatever.
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Jan 30, 2014 02:51
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he's not possessed, he's just a goddamn lunatic
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Jan 30, 2014 06:12
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"Possessed by a demon" uhh yeah that's it I was totally possessed.
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Jan 30, 2014 06:14
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Yeah nothing weird goin on here *breathes fire, ignores mortal wounds*
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Jan 30, 2014 07:15
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adebisi lives posted:You guys are too harsh on Logen, who does he kill that doesn't have it coming to them during the books while he's not possessed by some crazy rear end demon? He keeps trying to lead a peaceful life but when he gets sucked back into violence he's only killing other guys who are trying to kill him or are kidnapping kids or whatever. The Dragon People, who are the closest thing to genuinely good in Abercrombie's world. Which means their ultimate goal is probably something crazy evil, but I digress. He could have let the three at that tavern go too, it seemed that they wanted the same thing he sometimes did, to walk away from a violent life. I will agree that Logen doesn't kill without reason, but he really doesn't need that strong of one. He made it clear that he was willing to kill any of the Northerners who skipped out on going south to fight for the Union. He is very clearly a person who lies to himself, a good example is pretending to have no aspirations to become King, but then acting like one anyways. Mr.48 posted:I read Logen more as a recovering alcoholic, except that his alcohol is violence. He doesnt want to get back to his old ways, and in Red Country he becomes "Lamb" to avoid even getting a taste of it. Every alcoholic is afraid of taking a single drink, because they know, that even that small taste could easily re-ignite their thirst for more, and then they wont want to stay sober anymore. I like this take on it too. It's fairly interesting that after everything is said and done he and Shivers of all people walk away from killing each other.
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Jan 30, 2014 07:18
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I figured that was because of the similarities they had taken on made it very easy for them to empathize with one another. So much violence, particularly in Abercrombie's world, stems from the characters ignorance of one another. Hell, the Gurkish and Union really had no reason to fight other than the feud between their respective manipulators. Shivers and Logen both spent a portion of their lives as the boogieman Northen mothers told their kids about. Its hard to really hate someone once you understand their perspective. I thought that non fight was a master touch for ending such a bloody story.
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Jan 30, 2014 08:51
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Plus Logen would have sent Shivers back to the mud in about 5 seconds flat.
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Jan 30, 2014 08:58
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Above Our Own posted:Plus Logen would have sent Shivers back to the mud in about 5 seconds flat. Well...
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Jan 30, 2014 09:17
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I doubt Logen would have, given the age difference. The Bloody Nine, on the other hand...
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Jan 30, 2014 14:21
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Barbe Rouge posted:he's not possessed, he's just a goddamn lunatic Try reading the books.
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Jan 31, 2014 00:40
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I guess there's more room for interpretation than I originally thought but so much of the point of Logen's story in LAoK was about how no, it was really him responsible for the poo poo he did that I feel like the possession angle undermines it entirely.
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Jan 31, 2014 01:28
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neongrey posted:I guess there's more room for interpretation than I originally thought but so much of the point of Logen's story in LAoK was about how no, it was really him responsible for the poo poo he did that I feel like the possession angle undermines it entirely. I like the idea of not being entirely sure, myself. I lean toward some kind of possession, but it doesn't really match the behavior of Malacus Quai after he got possessed (or is it that he was eaten and then the crazy demon lady wore his skin). Do we still need to spoiler the first trilogy? It's been out for years now.
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Jan 31, 2014 01:46
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Space Pussy posted:Try reading the books. there's a  smiley missing in your post
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Jan 31, 2014 01:48
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Grand Prize Winner posted:I like the idea of not being entirely sure, myself. I lean toward some kind of possession, but it doesn't really match the behavior of Malacus Quai after he got possessed (or is it that he was eaten and then the crazy demon lady wore his skin). Do we still need to spoiler the first trilogy? It's been out for years now. Yeah I've seen enough arguments about it lately that I've softened on it such that I wouldn't rule it out as a potential factor entirely, but it's just not a surmise I can agree with in the end.
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Jan 31, 2014 02:16
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Not really no. The argument that Bloody-Nine comes from a mental disease has no actual evidence or basis really. That is unless you ignore the mountains of evidence/magic showing otherwise.
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Jan 31, 2014 02:24
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Space Pussy posted:Not really no. The argument that Bloody-Nine comes from a mental disease has no actual evidence or basis really. That is unless you ignore the mountains of evidence/magic showing otherwise. Would you care to care to share a few rocks from this mountain of evidence that explicitly states it is possession/magic that makes the Bloody-Nine?
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Jan 31, 2014 02:44
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Tequila Sunrise posted:Would you care to care to share a few rocks from this mountain of evidence that explicitly states it is possession/magic that makes the Bloody-Nine? Why? This comes up like every three pages in the thread and is clearly implied in the books. I also don't see how Logen just being totally crazy bro is more interesting than the supernatural special snowflake aspect of him.
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Jan 31, 2014 02:56
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Tequila Sunrise posted:Would you care to care to share a few rocks from this mountain of evidence that explicitly states it is possession/magic that makes the Bloody-Nine? Well, he does hold his own (while grievously wounded) against a pre-Bayaz creature who is being helped by something akin to High Art. He then kills said creature when that help is no longer available. I mean, Fenris made Northmen poo poo themselves in fear when he was just in their general vicinity, but I guess some mental illness and telling yourself that it's better to do something than to live in fear of it will get the job done in a pinch. Now, that's not to say that he doesn't make bad decisions and isn't in complete denial about enjoying violence.
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Jan 31, 2014 03:03
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Space Pussy posted:Why? This comes up like every three pages in the thread and is clearly implied in the books. He asked for an explicit statement. He's trolling.
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Jan 31, 2014 03:44
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Because no character in a fantasy novel has survived a potentially mortal wound before http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfelqZpapZA
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Jan 31, 2014 03:45
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The problem is that the author himself seems to have a change of heart as the series progresses, maybe because he thought it would make for a more interesting character after he had already written TFL. In the later books Logen's explicitly superhuman abilities are downplayed. But he loving breathes fires, summons spirits, straight rips the arms off of ancient demigods, and isn't said to shrug off A mortal wound like the guy above me suggests but hundreds. Why we have to keep posting that list of Totally Not Supernatural things in this thread is just a testament to the author's unfortunate lack of planning with Logen's arc.
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Jan 31, 2014 05:09
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The balance of the evidence seems to point to the Bloody Nine being a supernatural entity that possesses Logen. For instance, the B9 fought the Feared, literally a super-human demigod aided by a witch, to a standstill. We also know for a fact that Logen has something supernatural about him that gives him the spirit-talking ability, which may be circumstantial, but its still a hint. On the other hand, you could argue that the B9 is a non-supernatural entity, such as a second personality resulting from Logan being mentally ill, and his other supernatural abilities being unrelated to the B9. In this scenario, Logen just happens to be abnormally strong (even for his size, and Logen is a huge dude), but its only when he turns into the B9 that he unleashes his full potential by pushing his body to his absolutely limits and ignoring pain, leaving his body a total wreck when he gets back to his normal self. I actually like this interpretation better, but do think Abercrombie probably intended the possession theory to be the factual one. In any case, if you're into the death of the author and all, feel free to interpret it as you wish, since it doesnt really make a difference in terms of impacting the rest of the story. Mr.48 fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Jan 31, 2014 |
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Jan 31, 2014 05:15
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Xenix posted:Well, he does hold his own (while grievously wounded) against a pre-Bayaz creature who is being helped by something akin to High Art. He then kills said creature when that help is no longer available. I mean, Fenris made Northmen poo poo themselves in fear when he was just in their general vicinity, but I guess some mental illness and telling yourself that it's better to do something than to live in fear of it will get the job done in a pinch. We know that he's not a regular human (speaks to spirits etc). That doesn't have to mean that he's possessed by a demon. Who says he's not somewhat resistant to whatever makes Fenris Fenris. I don't like the possession angle because it sounds like a justification for him, as in "oh poor Logen, he wants to be a good man but he's got this ultraviolent demon in his head".
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Jan 31, 2014 05:28
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Logen can be loving psychopathic and possessed by spirits, you know. Part of what Bethod says to him is that Logen is the one who was always pushing for more conquests, and Logen was the one who pushed for more bloodshed instead of mercy. Logen did it, but the Bloody Nine also does things like kill Crummock's son. The Bloody Nine can't really do what Bethod was saying, because whoever he'd try to speak to would be, well, dead. We even see it when we're in Logen's head. Sure, he's saying things like "you have to be realistic" and "the first person to strike is often the only one" or whatever, but he's very, very big on starting fights early and often to protect himself. He shows up and immediately picks fights to assert his dominance so people don't attack him, and that's after he's tried to make himself a better man. In his younger, more violent days, of course he'd push for more violence. Logen's thinks he is a hero, so he acts like one until it becomes too tough to do so, then he goes back to being a violent thug. quote:I think it's more that Logen wants to want to be different, he genuinely enjoys being the legendary Bloody Nine and the very second he finds himself back in that environment he is fully back to his old ways. The second he runs into other Northmen he is embracing his reputation as the baddest of the bad and constantly threatening violence to get his way, implicitly or explicitly. His desire to leave his murderous ways behind is not at all sincere, which was the whole thrust of his arc.
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Jan 31, 2014 05:39
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Barbe Rouge posted:I don't like the possession angle because it sounds like a justification for him, as in "oh poor Logen, he wants to be a good man but he's got this ultraviolent demon in his head".
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Jan 31, 2014 05:41
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Above Our Own posted:The problem is that the author himself seems to have a change of heart as the series progresses, maybe because he thought it would make for a more interesting character after he had already written TFL. In the later books Logen's explicitly superhuman abilities are downplayed. He definitely has something supernatural going on and the fact that he can talk to spirits was a central-ish point of the trilogy. Is there anything in the text that supports "possessed" though? All of his other 'abilities' he uses consciously. As has been said, it is left unknown, are we really just arguing which possibility seems simpler/more obvious? To me it seems like he has crazy physical abilities, and sometimes enters a berserking fugue state, but I'm not really buying that it is completely involuntary. Jumping to possessed seems like a much bigger leap. To me it takes a lot of the punch of his arc if his proclivity towards violence is caused by something external.
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Jan 31, 2014 05:52
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Ravenfood posted:Logen can be loving psychopathic and possessed by spirits, you know. Part of what Bethod says to him is that Logen is the one who was always pushing for more conquests, and Logen was the one who pushed for more bloodshed instead of mercy. Logen did it, but the Bloody Nine also does things like kill Crummock's son. The Bloody Nine can't really do what Bethod was saying, because whoever he'd try to speak to would be, well, dead. We even see it when we're in Logen's head. Sure, he's saying things like "you have to be realistic" and "the first person to strike is often the only one" or whatever, but he's very, very big on starting fights early and often to protect himself. He shows up and immediately picks fights to assert his dominance so people don't attack him, and that's after he's tried to make himself a better man. In his younger, more violent days, of course he'd push for more violence. Logen's thinks he is a hero, so he acts like one until it becomes too tough to do so, then he goes back to being a violent thug. Starting fights to assert dominance is pretty much northern culture. Swinging first or using your reputation to an advantage isn't exactly crazy town either and is actually practical/smart in that world. Dude has to live with what B9 has done and ultimately gets responsibility for those actions. Also sees/talks to ghosts so I'm sure he's a bit hosed up from all that. Space Pussy fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Jan 31, 2014 |
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Jan 31, 2014 05:57
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I don't know why people love the theory so much that they'll jump way out of their way to prop it up. Yes, there's tons of evidence that it is an actual possession.
Logen is obsessed with guilt over what he does, maybe because he feels sickened that he enjoys it. But there is no way he can just turn that poo poo on or off by his own will. Above Our Own fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Jan 31, 2014 |
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Jan 31, 2014 06:02
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You guys must be bad at reading books or just being willfully ignorant if you don't see logen have supernatural fighting powers that only appear when his normal character literally blacks out and just wakes up later confused and in a ton of pain. When he's fighting fenris the feared it goes out of the way to mention him feeling a cold icy feeling surging in his body which is consistent with other magical events in the books. What I got from the character is a guy who regrets what he's done in the past and keeps trying to lead a better life but has to go back to his old ways if the circumstances demand it. He also seems to have guilt but also acceptance over him blacking out and waking up to a pile of dead guys he doesn't even remember killing, enemies or otherwise. In the fight with fenris and in parts of red country you get the impression he doesn't really understand what happens to him but is willing to use it to get through a tough situation.
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Jan 31, 2014 06:02
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I really wasn't trying to troll with my last post, I'm just saying that there's no conclusive evidence that he is "possessed" or anything. I will agree that it does seem like Joe decided to change Logen after The Blade Itself, because we do see him shoot a fireball at some guy's face and then never do anything like that again. It does seem that the strongest evidence for it being some sort of magic/demonic power is the cold feeling that is described when he goes all B9 is similar to the way certain magic (specifically the Seed) is described. However, as I think someone mentioned earlier, if you've ever had a surge of adrenaline, specifically in an near-death situation, the feeling Logen describes can be chalked up to that. I just don't like the "Logen is possessed/magic/demon-y" angle because I think it cheapens his character, and until Joe explicitly says otherwise I'll continue to believe it. Actually, even if he says otherwise I may still believe this. I've spent years denying much of the canon in the Star Wars and Warhammer 40K universes and I'm happier for it. edit: Also, pertaining to the Fenris fight, consider what happened during the Contest. Bayaz worked his charms and helped Jezal ball outrageous for about 2 minutes, and as soon as the fight was over Jezal literally collapsed to the ground, unable to move or even speak. It seems like the magic that was used to in this situation didn't just magically augment the fighters, it simply allowed them to use every possible ounce of speed and power they were capable of, and when it ended they were drained far beyond what they normally would be. Logen had basically spent the whole duel just trying to dodge Fenris, and at the moment he was being steadily crushed to death by Fenris' grip, the sorceress shuffled loose the mortal coil. Assuming this magic is similar to Bayaz's, Fenris would likely have been completely drained when the magic left him, leaving him vulnerable for the B9 to (just barely) finish him. Yorkshire Pudding fucked around with this message at 06:58 on Jan 31, 2014 |
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Jan 31, 2014 06:52
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Above Our Own posted:I don't know why people love the theory so much that they'll jump way out of their way to prop it up. Yes, there's tons of evidence that it is an actual possession. The list you made isn't evidence. There's nothing there that really points to demon possession. Above Our Own posted:If you want to read some alternate personality theory into the text then I can't stop you, but you have to at least concede that the personality is so strong that he really has no control over it so it doesn't change the question of his guilt, and then you've got to come up with retarded theories to explain the superhuman poo poo instead of just sticking to the text. The retarded theory explaining the superhuman poo poo is - he is superhuman.
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Jan 31, 2014 07:20
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