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Simplex posted:It depends on the state yes, but a non-compete in Pennsylvania isn't going to hold water at Ohio State outside of their road games played at Penn State. It's why they don't even bother with them for coaches and instead just focus on the buy-out portion of the contract. The coach can leave whenever he wants and there's nothing the school can do about it except try to get paid. I'd guess the fact that no coach would ever sign a contract with a non-compete clause probably plays into it as well.
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Jan 30, 2014 21:43
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Just make it illegal for for-profit minor league sports to be connected to learning institutions. It's such a blatant and ridiculous conflict of interest. You see schools like Florida cutting funding to schooling so they can spend it on the football team, but we're supposed to act like the top priority for players on the team is supposed to be their education, even though all the good ones leave before they get a degree. They shouldn't have to care about college, they're in the minor leagues. If someone wants to pursue a degree while playing in said minor leagues, that's completely irrelevant to them playing football. Does anyone seriously give a poo poo if their college team started a player who was "ineligible" for academics or some stupid non-football reason? I say they should just separate the NCAA from college, and run it like any other minor league, while still using the names and stadiums of the college teams. At least the PAC 12, SEC, and the conferences like that who bring about the most talent. Colleges get some extra cash for something that has nothing to do with their education services while being provided an incentive for high school kids to want to attend their school, athletes get paid for playing in a professional minor league, everyone still gets to watch their favorite team, and it ends the stupid "But what about the tennis team?  " nonsense. I don't understand how this system can still be so broken in the year of our lord 2014.
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Feb 2, 2014 06:30
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You don't have to make it illegal, you just have to strip away the funding mechanism and go to an all-club model. The problem is that the two most popular sports -- football and men's basketball -- rely on the NCAA for talent development and every college president in the nation is more than willing to provide this at a detriment to their schools.
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Feb 2, 2014 23:05
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The talk of schools everywhere having to shut down their programs due to a union is hilarious because that's exactly what unions want to do, destroy themselves right? It's not like they negotiate for the best deal they can get while acknowledging the other side has real needs.
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Feb 4, 2014 20:51
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LARGE THE HEAD posted:You don't have to make it illegal, you just have to strip away the funding mechanism and go to an all-club model. Yeah, the real problem is that the schools will never buy into it because the board of directors or whatever would get raked over the coals for it. Any sort of change would have to be forced at the national level, and I doubt enough people really care about the system to escalate the issue to that level.
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Feb 4, 2014 21:00
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Volkerball posted:Just make it illegal for for-profit minor league sports to be connected to learning institutions. It's such a blatant and ridiculous conflict of interest. You see schools like Florida cutting funding to schooling so they can spend it on the football team, but we're supposed to act like the top priority for players on the team is supposed to be their education, even though all the good ones leave before they get a degree. They shouldn't have to care about college, they're in the minor leagues. If someone wants to pursue a degree while playing in said minor leagues, that's completely irrelevant to them playing football. Does anyone seriously give a poo poo if their college team started a player who was "ineligible" for academics or some stupid non-football reason? I say they should just separate the NCAA from college, and run it like any other minor league, while still using the names and stadiums of the college teams. At least the PAC 12, SEC, and the conferences like that who bring about the most talent. Colleges get some extra cash for something that has nothing to do with their education services while being provided an incentive for high school kids to want to attend their school, athletes get paid for playing in a professional minor league, everyone still gets to watch their favorite team, and it ends the stupid "But what about the tennis team? Then donations are suddenly non tax deductible, which would kill just about every program. And if teams are only tangentially affiliated with schools a lot of fan interest would dry up anyway. Hockey and Baseball make it work. There's no reason not to use them as a model if big changes are made.
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Feb 4, 2014 21:04
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Raku posted:The talk of schools everywhere having to shut down their programs due to a union is hilarious because that's exactly what unions want to do, destroy themselves right? It's not like they negotiate for the best deal they can get while acknowledging the other side has real needs. cough American car industry cough cough
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Feb 4, 2014 21:04
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Frackie Robinson posted:cough American car industry cough cough Was actually caused more by bad and greedy management than the union? Sounds like the NCAA to me. In reality though, a lot of schools probably would shut down because any significant expense going to the players would be an additional burden some schools wouldn't want to deal with. Even if it is just things like providing health insurance and workman's comp.
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Feb 4, 2014 21:31
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Thoguh posted:Then donations are suddenly non tax deductible, which would kill just about every program. And if teams are only tangentially affiliated with schools a lot of fan interest would dry up anyway. I don't know about baseball, but in hockey and soccer, college sports are irrelevant. If you have to go to college to play, it means you didn't make the cut at 18 and are looking at an uphill battle just to end up as a role player on a semi-pro team. Most of the good players start getting paid at 16 with teams who have far less income, and stay there until they get promoted to the AHL or NHL, or a pro soccer team buys them or promotes them. College is just a piss poor farm system because of all the strings attached. You can't even own the rights to a player and send them back for a developmental year in the minors because that would besmirch the universities reputation as an institution of learning. 
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Feb 4, 2014 22:06
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I can't pretend I know a ton about it but I think in hockey it doesn't necessarily mean what you're saying, somehow or other the team that drafts you retains your rights while you go to college without any money changing hands I think. There are plenty of decent players in the NHL who played college hockey at the least.
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Feb 4, 2014 22:16
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Grittybeard posted:I can't pretend I know a ton about it but I think in hockey it doesn't necessarily mean what you're saying, somehow or other the team that drafts you retains your rights while you go to college without any money changing hands I think. There are plenty of decent players in the NHL who played college hockey at the least. Yeah, NHL teams retain rights until the player graduates or decides to void their eligibility and make the jump, I believe. Most hockey players need college/minor league time to get ready for the NHL. With soccer in the USA, though, the college game is mostly a joke for talent progression with the exception of goalies. Goalies need a lot of playing time at any level available when they're young to help them develop.
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Feb 4, 2014 22:36
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Grittybeard posted:I can't pretend I know a ton about it but I think in hockey it doesn't necessarily mean what you're saying, somehow or other the team that drafts you retains your rights while you go to college without any money changing hands I think. There are plenty of decent players in the NHL who played college hockey at the least. 30% of NHL players played in college. It's a sizeable chunk, and there are some stars in there, but it's typically the route for players who are quite a bit behind the rest of the talent pool. Only 5 first round picks (none in the top 20) are currently playing in the NCAA, and 17 second rounders, and that's from all the drafts from 2009-present. Tons of late round picks though. The system works like you described, but no top talent goes that direction. Why do that when you can get paid and not have to worry about a bunch of irrelevant eligibility nonsense? Volkerball fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 22:37
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Volkerball posted:I don't know about baseball, but in hockey and soccer, college sports are irrelevant. If you have to go to college to play, it means you didn't make the cut at 18 and are looking at an uphill battle just to end up as a role player on a semi-pro team. Most of the good players start getting paid at 16 with teams who have far less income, and stay there until they get promoted to the AHL or NHL, or a pro soccer team buys them or promotes them. College is just a piss poor farm system because of all the strings attached. You can't even own the rights to a player and send them back for a developmental year in the minors because that would besmirch the universities reputation as an institution of learning. College soccer is poo poo College hockey produces tons of players though. Towes went to North Dakota, Kessel went to Minnesota, etc.
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Feb 5, 2014 00:10
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A lot of MLB players are drafted out of college. It's also common for a player to get drafted out of high school, decide his draft slot wasn't high enough, go play in college for a few years, and eventually get re-drafted at a higher spot. In MLB at least, players need so much development time that high school guys tend to be riskier picks than college guys. I don't know if the same would apply to football however.
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Feb 5, 2014 00:26
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Frackie Robinson posted:cough American car industry cough cough When we have foreign football teams taking all of the national championships I'll believe that.
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Feb 5, 2014 00:30
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Frackie Robinson posted:cough American car industry cough cough Yea, American cars sucked, that was why.
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Feb 5, 2014 04:20
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Volkerball posted:30% of NHL players played in college. It's a sizeable chunk, and there are some stars in there, but it's typically the route for players who are quite a bit behind the rest of the talent pool. Only 5 first round picks (none in the top 20) are currently playing in the NCAA, and 17 second rounders, and that's from all the drafts from 2009-present. Tons of late round picks though. The system works like you described, but no top talent goes that direction. Why do that when you can get paid and not have to worry about a bunch of irrelevant eligibility nonsense? So let the top players that don't have any interest in school go to a minor league, and let everybody else get a free ride to school while they play, get a degree, and then move on with their lives. What's the problem with that? That seems to me like a great solution. Sounds like Hockey has a good system. Thoguh fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Feb 5, 2014 |
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Feb 5, 2014 04:25
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Thoguh posted:So let the top players that don't have any interest in school go to a minor league, and let everybody else get a free ride to school while they play, get a degree, and then move on with their lives. What's the problem with that? That seems to me like a great solution. Sounds like Hockey has a good system. Because the NFL has been unable to establish a developmental league and has been unwilling to bankroll it as it struggles to break even. AFL and Canadian are technically minor leagues, but there isn't a HS to AFL or HS to Canadian path.
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Feb 5, 2014 04:43
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kayakyakr posted:Because the NFL has been unable to establish a developmental league and has been unwilling to bankroll it as it struggles to break even. AFL and Canadian are technically minor leagues, but there isn't a HS to AFL or HS to Canadian path. To my knowledge the NFL has never really tried to establish a minor league though. They have no reason to really because they can just use the college system for free. Edit: I think the NFL could absolutely bankroll a minor league if they really wanted too.
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Feb 5, 2014 05:55
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HappyHelmet posted:To my knowledge the NFL has never really tried to establish a minor league though. They have no reason to really because they can just use the college system for free. College Basketball, College Hockey, and College Baseball all exist, are popular, and each of those major leagues runs a minor league system. NFL had NFL Europe and has worked with many of the minor leagues in the past. They avoid giving any help to any minor league and will happily watch them fail. HS football is much more popular a spectator sport, though, so there's not much room for people to go watch bad football. College football does make more money too, and the powerbrokers don't want their talent base diluted by minor league NFL teams.
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Feb 5, 2014 06:14
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kayakyakr posted:College Basketball, College Hockey, and College Baseball all exist, are popular, and each of those major leagues runs a minor league system. Ah... I misread your post. Yeah, I agree with you. I thought you were implying that the NFL couldn't afford to fund a minor league for some reason.
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Feb 5, 2014 07:20
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I work at a machine shop, so I spend a lot of my night thinking deeply about random rear end poo poo. Tonight was how an ideal NCAA to minor league switch would play out, and I figured I'd type it up. No other reason to read this effort post other than "wouldn't this own," unless one of you feels encouraged to print it off, slap it down in front of NCAA HQ and then self immolate. Take the 32 NCAA teams with the biggest fan bases and income. Texas, Alabama, Oregon, Ohio State, etc and put them into the exact same division structure as the NFL. This would ensure teams would still have plenty of support even though they wouldn't be officially attached to their university or w/e. Texas Longhorns will always sell. Make sure that teams with long lasting rivalries aren't broken up. When an 18 year old prospect graduates from high school, he has two choices. He can choose his school, because it's not fair to tell someone who wants to get a finance degree from Michigan that they have to move to Auburn. The concession they have to give in order to get that choice is that they can't declare for the draft until after their 4th season, when they should have their degree. Stay in school, plebes. For those whose primary focus is football, they declare for a draft. Once they are drafted, they can apply for community college, the university that hosts their team, or say gently caress it and make bank for a few years before moving on with their life. Anyone 21-25 has to go through the minor league draft, so if you own at shittown college, you can have the opportunity to sign with the minors and get a year or two to really get your name out. Same salary cap, wage, and draft structures. Some teams will have a geographic advantage (not that the NCAA has done anything to enforce parity), but the draft for players who don't wish to go to school, or have a learning disability and can't but are 6'2" 200 and run a 4.4 40, should help out some of the worse off teams. These dudes are NFL draftable after their 3rd season. Anyone under 26 is eligible to play, so those inbetweeners have a couple more years to earn a shot in the NFL, and we can get some more enjoyment out of dudes like Pryor who were born to own second tier football. NFL Drafted players go through training camp with their NFL teams. After the 3rd preseason game, each NFL team has to decide which players that are eligible they want to send back to the minors. Supplemental minors draft for players getting sent down who aren't already on a minor roster. This gives guys like Jamarcus, who a team may think having the rights to is worth a 1st round pick, but aren't anywhere near ready, a better chance at growing, by getting a preseason with the NFL squad and a regular season with his minor league team. Once the 4th preseason game is played, rosters are finalized, to kind of protect the minors from becoming a farm system and top players from teams that hundreds of thousands support from being called up and ruining a season because of an injury to the NFL team. Once they get sent back, they get a few weeks adjusting back to their minor league team before games start. They play 12 games in 13 weeks. That aligns with the season being finished at the same time as the NFL season, and then it rolls into the playoffs. You could have a top newly draftable players bowl the same week as the Pro Bowl, and then championship Saturday, super bowl Sunday, and the worst hangover ever Monday. I think it'd be pretty sweet. More talent, better chances to develop that talent, a BCS championship that features student athletes rather than cleverly disguised professional athletes,:and a second league that I would actually watch. Yes, I would be interested in being commissioner, Goodell. Thank you for ceding your job to me. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Feb 5, 2014 |
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Feb 5, 2014 08:15
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Volkerball posted:I work at a machine shop, so I spend a lot of my night thinking deeply about random rear end poo poo. Tonight was how an ideal NCAA to minor league switch would play out, and I figured I'd type it up. No other reason to read this effort post other than "wouldn't this own," unless one of you feels encouraged to print it off, slap it down in front of NCAA HQ and then self immolate. So for this you'd have the 32 top college teams as the minor leagues and then a separate bunch of schools as the actual college game now? I think the idea has some merit but I think people would be rather pissed if the BCS championship or whatever was no longer eligible to be won by OSU/USC/Texas/etc. If you made another NFL Minor League Championship or whatever it'd probably go down easier.
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Feb 5, 2014 14:18
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axeil posted:So for this you'd have the 32 top college teams as the minor leagues and then a separate bunch of schools as the actual college game now? I think the idea has some merit but I think people would be rather pissed if the BCS championship or whatever was no longer eligible to be won by OSU/USC/Texas/etc. If you made another NFL Minor League Championship or whatever it'd probably go down easier. I was thinking a similar line except my number was ~80 teams, corresponding to the current Big 5 + a few more. Teams would be attached to the universities, but would operate as for-profit entities owned by those universities. Players would be offered a team-funded education while being paid like a minor leaguer. Recruiting season would have to be structured a bit differently and player trades/transfers would be done with consideration toward the university attachment. Max team size would be structured on age... you can have up to 20 players from each year and players wouldn't "age out", though they'd be encouraged to not hang out in the minors if they've used it to earn a degree and will never make it in the NFL. Mostly by being cut if they suck. Maybe you limit that to 10 per year past age 25? *shrug* lots of issues to figure out in this strange scenario.
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Feb 5, 2014 14:38
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Why would a minor league need to have any association at all with colleges? They don't in any other sport. Any honestly consider who would be going to a minor league - basically most of your 5* and a lot of 4* prospects. Even on a team like Alabama most of the guys on the team have no illusions of an NFL future, and even in the BCS conferences outside of the top handful of teams most of the time teams are sending a very small fraction of their players to the NFL. If you take the 32 team idea and figure a minor league team would have a roster of say, 60 players, that's 1,920 players involved in the minor leagues. Wikipedia says there are 126 FBS teams and 122 FCS teams. That means there are 18,396 players on scholarship in D-1 college football, plus another 10,000 or so walk ons. And that's ignoring the JuCo numbers. Taking 2000 players out of that group is less than 10%. And hell, it would even lead to improvements in competitive balance at the FBS level if the Texas's and Alabama's of the world weren't stacked with 5* talent anymore because those guys are off playing in a minor league.
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Feb 5, 2014 15:30
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Thoguh posted:Why would a minor league need to have any association at all with colleges? Because a pure minor league pays some players, but leaves the colleges with a very profitable football league made up by a bunch of players like those playing for northwestern that does not pay any players and doesn't change the situation that those who formed the union that prompted this thread are in.
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Feb 5, 2014 15:35
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kayakyakr posted:I was thinking a similar line except my number was ~80 teams, corresponding to the current Big 5 + a few more. Teams would be attached to the universities, but would operate as for-profit entities owned by those universities. Players would be offered a team-funded education while being paid like a minor leaguer. I think players would have to age out, that way you can still have 18-20 year old kids that can step in and be competitive right away to keep recruiting interesting. Trades/transfers is difficult, and might just be easier done by saying that the only team they can play for is the one who drafted them or signed them or whatever until they get promoted to an NFL roster or age out. Thoguh posted:Why would a minor league need to have any association at all with colleges? They don't in any other sport. Because there's kids all over the country who dream of playing for Alabama and those other top teams. If a bunch of 5 star recruits are still just playing college ball, it sort of defeats the purpose. It's just taking the top tier of college football and promoting them to the next level. By picking those teams, you kind of cut the head off of college football being the premier minor league in one fell swoop. quote:And hell, it would even lead to improvements in competitive balance at the FBS level if the Texas's and Alabama's of the world weren't stacked with 5* talent anymore because those guys are off playing in a minor league. This, and the number of players who are going to play in the NFL one day would be really small. Most guys would stay their full college career because they are going to college and playing football on the side, not playing football and going to college on the side. I think it'd make college football more "pure." kayakyakr posted:Because a pure minor league pays some players, but leaves the colleges with a very profitable football league made up by a bunch of players like those playing for northwestern that does not pay any players and doesn't change the situation that those who formed the union that prompted this thread are in. They would be a different issue I suppose. It'd at least solve the issue of guys who have no care in the world about college but are forced to go and play for free because it's the only route to the NFL, and others who play for top teams that draw in massive crowds. The best of the best. The leftovers who couldn't make the cut would be an interesting debate, and it would kind of depend on how much profit the BCS teams were bringing in. At some point you'd have to draw the line and say X schools either don't have to pay, or pay much less. At what point does it stop being an extra curricular activity and become a business that you are employed with? You'd have to figure that out.ú Volkerball fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Feb 5, 2014 |
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Feb 5, 2014 15:58
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I'm always skeptical that there's any significant number of guys that can physically compete when they're 19. My gut tells me Jamies Winston would be killed on the field right now.
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Feb 5, 2014 17:35
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Sash! posted:I'm always skeptical that there's any significant number of guys that can physically compete when they're 19. My gut tells me Jamies Winston would be killed on the field right now. I think it depends on the position. QBs absolutely need time to grow, but a lot of RBs would probably benefit from having less college wear on their bodies.
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Feb 5, 2014 19:08
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HappyHelmet posted:I think it depends on the position. QBs absolutely need time to grow, but a lot of RBs would probably benefit from having less college wear on their bodies. RB might be the only position that most players could jump straight to the NFL from high school. Linemen definitely need time to grow, hell most of them focus on putting on weight once they enter the NFL as it is now. CB might be another position that would have the easiest transition. Yeah, there are freak athletes, but for the most part college is where most players bulk up.
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Feb 5, 2014 19:17
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I read that the reason for bulking up was more because of nutrition and professional trainers than anything. If there was a farm league, players would be scouted at much younger ages, and trained correctly. This assumes that teams employ the best trainers and not friends of a friend through.
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Feb 5, 2014 20:14
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Femur posted:I read that the reason for bulking up was more because of nutrition and professional trainers than anything. That assumes that growing bodies can handle or should be made to handle a large amount of training and bulking up while still in adolescence. You would also get an even larger disparity of talent at the high-school age if certain athletes had professional trainers and nutritionists while others did not. Or are you suggesting that football players be yanked out of high school and have them play in a farm league before HS graduation?
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Feb 5, 2014 22:22
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Maxwells Demon posted:That assumes that growing bodies can handle or should be made to handle a large amount of training and bulking up while still in adolescence. You would also get an even larger disparity of talent at the high-school age if certain athletes had professional trainers and nutritionists while others did not. Or are you suggesting that football players be yanked out of high school and have them play in a farm league before HS graduation? It could help explain why a lot of hockey players are as dumb as a post
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Feb 5, 2014 22:44
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Come on, let's not pretend that there's a shitload of staggeringly thick athletes in any sport.
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Feb 6, 2014 00:11
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Maybe 10 percent of athletes at FBS schools are capable of handling both their studies and their sport's workload. The other 90 percent are either one step behind or in need of redemial studies that should be taught at a middle-school level.
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Feb 6, 2014 00:21
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Maxwells Demon posted:That assumes that growing bodies can handle or should be made to handle a large amount of training and bulking up while still in adolescence. You would also get an even larger disparity of talent at the high-school age if certain athletes had professional trainers and nutritionists while others did not. Or are you suggesting that football players be yanked out of high school and have them play in a farm league before HS graduation? Yeah, get them young. Supposedly, players and their families are bribed to move within desired district lines now, or just offer scholarships to private schools now; so it's more formalizing the whole thing. I am not an expert on nutrition or training, but it seems like these star athletes get hanger-ons who claim to be such, but there are also stories of teams employing lovely trainers and doctors also. I don't know what option would be best for the kids, hopefully a more structured developmental path helps, but corruption and waste is always possible.
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Feb 6, 2014 00:28
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Well things got very interesting today, as the NLRB sided with the All Players United group and agreed that college athletes are employees and not 'student athletes' under labor law. This will certainly cause a seismic shift going forward with how NCAA does business.
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Mar 26, 2014 20:05
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I can't wait to see how much money the NCAA and the Conferences use to appeal this decision.
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Mar 26, 2014 20:09
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Dexo posted:I can't wait to see how much money the NCAA and the Conferences use to appeal this decision. probably more money then they'd spend paying the players
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Mar 26, 2014 20:10
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Mar 26, 2014 20:31
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