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Argas posted:Well, a bit of a clarification. The Sides are large groups of colonies, as opposed to individual colonies. Its also worth noting that Zeon's surprise attack on sides 1, 2 and 4 pretty much consisted of killing all the defensive forces, and then gassing roughly three billion people to death. Its really hosed up.
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Feb 8, 2014 20:29
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Pureauthor posted:Quick rundown of the relevant timeline up until the beginning of MSG, at least AFAIR: I know it's not the best source but Gundam Wiki says Zeon started with the nukes during the second attempted colony drop. Then again, it also cites something called "Gundam Century" as proof that both sides were already using nuclear weapons. All the links are dead though it seems. I've heard on other Gundam forums and stuff that, with the passing years, the writers have became more and more pro-Zeon though. Obviously I can't vouch for that but it makes me curious because, as Caros noted, these guys are kinda terribad. I thought this was supposed to be more grey and grey morality but from what I know, Zeon started everything. Are there "Zeon clones" in later Gundam series? And are they less moustache-twirling? Although I will say that Gihren Zabi's VA is one of the best in the dub. He need sto be around more and give me a break from dub Amuro. God he's so awful.... I like it's an Ocean dub though because I keep hearing voices from other anime I liked a long time ago. Kai is Inuyasha, Mirai is Kagome's mother, Amuro is Harry Champ (a man destined to be King) and I'm very sad that Paul Dobson won't be around until Wing/SEED/00. He's got one of the best villain voices I've ever heard in an anime and he plays some dude named Aker in 00. I've heard of him but not sure if he's a bad guy. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Feb 8, 2014 |
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Feb 8, 2014 20:33
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NikkolasKing posted:I know it's not the best source but Gundam Wiki says Zeon started with the nukes during the second attempted colony drop. Then again, it also cites something called "Gundam Century" as proof that both sides were already using nuclear weapons. All the links are dead though it seems. Victory has the Zanscare Empire, F91 has the Crossbone Vanguard, and many AUs have their own Zeon-equivalents (OZ for Wing, ZAFT for SEED, the Space Revolutionary Army for X, the Moonrace for Turn A, and Vagan for AGE). They tend to be varying degrees of moustache-twirly, with the Vanguard being the most and the Moonrace being the least.
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Feb 8, 2014 20:55
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NikkolasKing posted:I like it's an Ocean dub though because I keep hearing voices from other anime I liked a long time ago. Kai is Inuyasha, Mirai is Kagome's mother, Amuro is Harry Champ (a man destined to be King) and I'm very sad that Paul Dobson won't be around until Wing/SEED/00. He's got one of the best villain voices I've ever heard in an anime and he plays some dude named Aker in 00. I've heard of him but not sure if he's a bad guy. Graham's not a bad guy. He's the best guy.
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Feb 8, 2014 21:02
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Sunrise registered g-reco.net.
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Feb 8, 2014 21:09
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Guyver posted:Sunrise registered g-reco.net. I'm going to laugh if Tomino has been misdirecting us this entire time. I'd watch the poo poo out of it if that happened.
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Feb 8, 2014 21:14
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NikkolasKing posted:I've heard on other Gundam forums and stuff that, with the passing years, the writers have became more and more pro-Zeon though. Obviously I can't vouch for that but it makes me curious because, as Caros noted, these guys are kinda terribad. I thought this was supposed to be more grey and grey morality but from what I know, Zeon started everything. The gray morality that comes into play is when you meet people like Garma, Dozle, and Ramba Ral who are fundamentally decent people who happen to be fighting for a reasonably just cause that has been co-opted by evil people. Gihren is pretty much Literally Hitler and Zeon High Command pushed a lot of horrific atrocities so Zeon as a whole is largely indefensible, but there are plenty of people in Zeon who aren't evil. Hell, Zeon command even suppressed the horror of its own actions(They told the troops gassing the Sides that it was sleeping gas, for example) in order to avoid dissension in the ranks. The Federation quickly reveals that they're very much a lesser evil than a "good", as well. Later Zeon-analogues tend to be somewhat less bombastically evil in the way of openly depicted atrocities. The only one that comes close to(actually surpasses) Zeon's body count is the Space Revolutionary Army from X, and that was a two-sided conflict so both sides have culpability in the genocide.
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Feb 8, 2014 21:14
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NikkolasKing posted:Are there "Zeon clones" in later Gundam series? And are they less moustache-twirling? The Plants would be the better example from SEED. Since its a remake they are pretty much Zeon redone. That said, the bloody valentine war from SEED isn't really all that similar to the One Year War. Apart from the energy crisis on earth which gets pretty much totally glossed over, there really aren't all that many casualties, probably a million or so from shots fired compared to 4.5 billion in OYW. One thing I did like about the SEED take on it is that both sides didn't open up with the doomsday weapons until the peak of the show. I always did think it was a little odd that Zeon went full retard in murdering a third of humanity almost out of nowhere. On another note, having watched 0083 Stardust Memory on the plane for my vacation, I have to say it is... not good. 0083 was my first non-wing Gundam show when I got into the series playing Dynasty Warriors Gundam, and at the time I was reasonably impressed with it. Having rewatched however I'm really aware of how basically everything was a failure. Kou failed in pretty much everything he did, totaled both (or all three depending) of his mobile suits and failed to stop Gato in any meaningful way. Yet at the same time Gato also effectively failed at doing anything, Stardust succeeded, but so what? Congrats, you killed a bunch of people for no reason and then got offed. And don't even get me started on Nina... christ. It just seems like a very nihilistic show.
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Feb 8, 2014 21:23
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Kanos posted:Later Zeon-analogues tend to be somewhat less bombastically evil in the way of openly depicted atrocities. The only one that comes close to(actually surpasses) Zeon's body count is the Space Revolutionary Army from X, and that was a two-sided conflict so both sides have culpability in the genocide. Well, there's the Zanscare Empire. The mass executions by guillotine and Operation Giant Roller are up there with Zeon's atrocities, even if you discount the Angel Halo because they conned its crew/power sources into going along with it.
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Feb 8, 2014 21:33
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I always thought it was hilarious how Kou, the only trained pilot, is probably the worst at piloting among the various protagonists. Maybe Gato's just supposed to be ridiculously good, but really Kou? You couldn't beat a mech with one arm disabled and only one beam saber with your brand spanking new, ridiculously agile, practically custom made to wreck face in duels Gundam?
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Feb 8, 2014 21:35
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Caros posted:It just seems like a very nihilistic show. It's sort of self-defeating in its very concept, because Zeta was already there--not much room for happy endings when "and then the Earth's government was hijacked by a junta" is written into your epilogue for you.
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Feb 8, 2014 21:36
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To be fair, Amuro was having trouble finishing off a one armed Sazabi in a fist fight and finished it in the end because Char got distracted by Nanai.
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Feb 8, 2014 21:37
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Caros posted:One thing I did like about the SEED take on it is that both sides didn't open up with the doomsday weapons until the peak of the show. I always did think it was a little odd that Zeon went full retard in murdering a third of humanity almost out of nowhere. Because Zeon didn't have the resources for a sustained conflict like the Federation did and they knew it. The idea was to inflict such massive, horrifying damage that the Federation would agree to a surrender.
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Feb 8, 2014 21:40
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tsob posted:To be fair, Amuro was having trouble finishing off a one armed Sazabi in a fist fight and finished it in the end because Char got distracted by Nanai. Man Amuro was pretty much entirely in control of that fist fight, and hell the entire fight in general. Only reason it lasted as long as it did was because at first Amuro was more focused on stopping Axis, and then when they got to the fisticuffs Char disengaged a lot. Meanwhile Gato utterly dominates Kou until the last clash. EDIT: Hell the scene where the Nu just pummels the poo poo out of the Sazabi actually got turned into an attack for it in recent SRW/G Gen games. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Feb 8, 2014 |
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Feb 8, 2014 21:46
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So apparently a G-Reko domain has been registered, which means that we are probably getting at least a full on animation announcement this year. MoonPhase has it dated speculatively for Spring, but even that is a very hazy ??? listing.
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Feb 8, 2014 21:51
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Caros posted:One thing I did like about the SEED take on it is that both sides didn't open up with the doomsday weapons until the peak of the show. I always did think it was a little odd that Zeon went full retard in murdering a third of humanity almost out of nowhere. As I recall, the attack on Junius Seven was demoralizing enough that the Alliance thought they had done enough damage to the PLANTs and a ZAFT counterattack wasn't likely, leaving the war to a few short skirmishes and that would be the end of it. Except suddenly ZAFT drops the Neutron Jammers all over Earth, which in turn causes the energy crisis by crippling Earth's heavy use of nuclear power as well as eliminating the ability to launch nuclear weapons in combat, giving ZAFT the upper hand and leading into the beginning of SEED where the Alliance has the five Gundams built. So by the time the Earth Alliance might have wanted to go all out with the nukes, they were incapable of using them at all. Of course, once the leaked the N-Jammer Canceller tech gets into their hands, we see that the Alliance does what they were probably itching to do for the majority of the war and start nuclear strikes on ZAFT targets.
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Feb 8, 2014 22:07
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BlitzBlast posted:Man Amuro was pretty much entirely in control of that fist fight, and hell the entire fight in general. Only reason it lasted as long as it did was because at first Amuro was more focused on stopping Axis, and then when they got to the fisticuffs Char disengaged a lot. Meanwhile Gato utterly dominates Kou until the last clash. I was mostly being facetious, because I honestly can't even remember the final fight of 0083 at all but that description of it immediately made me think of the finale of Char's Counterattack. I assumed it wasn't nearly the same thing, but it made me think of it regardless.
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Feb 8, 2014 22:10
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OZC posted:As I recall, the attack on Junius Seven was demoralizing enough that the Alliance thought they had done enough damage to the PLANTs and a ZAFT counterattack wasn't likely, leaving the war to a few short skirmishes and that would be the end of it. Except suddenly ZAFT drops the Neutron Jammers all over Earth, which in turn causes the energy crisis by crippling Earth's heavy use of nuclear power as well as eliminating the ability to launch nuclear weapons in combat, giving ZAFT the upper hand and leading into the beginning of SEED where the Alliance has the five Gundams built. So by the time the Earth Alliance might have wanted to go all out with the nukes, they were incapable of using them at all. Of course, once the leaked the N-Jammer Canceller tech gets into their hands, we see that the Alliance does what they were probably itching to do for the majority of the war and start nuclear strikes on ZAFT targets. To be slightly fair, the Alliance at the start of the show is not the same as the Alliance at the end. Junius Seven was not actually a military action. It was a done 'covertly' by a group of Blue Cosmos sympathizers within the Earth Alliance (but with the implied assistance of the Atlantic Federation). The bulk of the Eurasian section of the Alliance had been killed in battle or sacrificed in stuff like JOSH-A which lead to the Atlantic Federation taking control and the Atlantic Federation was full to the brim of crazy religious zealots. There's a scene where after they get the NJCs there is a guy going "Hey, uh, maybe we should use these to fix our power crisis" and he promptly gets voted down by Blue Cosmos guys. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Feb 8, 2014 |
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Feb 8, 2014 22:17
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tsob posted:I was mostly being facetious, because I honestly can't even remember the final fight of 0083 at all but that description of it immediately made me think of the finale of Char's Counterattack. I assumed it wasn't nearly the same thing, but it made me think of it regardless. There isn't one. Among its many failings the 'final' fight of 0083 has Gato wreck Kou's Ifield, bitch slap him around a little and then they both get shot by the Solar system and Gato goes to do something else. quote:It's sort of self-defeating in its very concept, because Zeta was already there--not much room for happy endings when "and then the Earth's government was hijacked by a junta" is written into your epilogue for you. I know that it leading into Zeta doesn't exactly leave room for a 'happy' ending, but the thing that bothers me is that the whole thing is so pointless. Everyone involved in 0083 comes out looking like an idiot, and the whole thing is just a giant comedy of errors.
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Feb 8, 2014 22:26
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ZZ is the last 'good' Gundam series I haven't seen and I'm finally getting around to watching it... I'm actually really enjoying the wacky hijinks and I'd probably rather it stay like this than take the serious shift I know is coming eventually.
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Feb 8, 2014 22:31
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ImpAtom posted:To be slightly fair, the Alliance at the start of the show is not the same as the Alliance at the end. Junius Seven was not actually a military action. It was a done 'covertly' by a group of Blue Cosmos sympathizers within the Earth Alliance (but with the implied assistance of the Atlantic Federation). The bulk of the Eurasian section of the Alliance had been killed in battle or sacrificed in stuff like JOSH-A which lead to the Atlantic Federation taking control and the Atlantic Federation was full to the brim of crazy religious zealots. There's a scene where after they get the NJCs there is a guy going "Hey, uh, maybe we should use these to fix our power crisis" and he promptly gets voted down by Blue Cosmos guys. That's true, I forgot just how much behind-the-scenes manipulation there was from Blue Cosmos. Still, that makes me question why they didn't just strike again when they saw the results they got, especially if they had enough pull to get the Atlantic Federation to go along with the plan, which leads me to believe ZAFT deployed the jammers almost immediately after the attack on Junius, before there was time for Blue Cosmos to bring together the resources for another strike.
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Feb 8, 2014 22:44
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It's a bit mystifying how Zeon is supposed to have lost half its population in the first week, because that's like 1 Billion people and dozens of colonies getting fragged without any Federation attack against Side 3 itself 
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Feb 8, 2014 22:45
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Pimpmust posted:It's a bit mystifying how Zeon is supposed to have lost half its population in the first week, because that's like 1 Billion people and dozens of colonies getting fragged without any Federation attack against Side 3 itself The only explanation I can come up with is that they were implicitly counting all the Sides as part of Zeon when they put out that number, so the Zeon gas attacks counted as Zeon casualties too.
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Feb 8, 2014 22:47
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Midjack posted:The only explanation I can come up with is that they were implicitly counting all the Sides as part of Zeon when they put out that number, so the Zeon gas attacks counted as Zeon casualties too. Hmm, yeah that might be it. Still, it's pretty funny how wonky the scale gets when the combatants have billions of people. Like how the hell did Zeon manage to run out of (trained) pilots? Then again total production numbers for the mobile suits are probably in the sub <10 000 for every single MS on both sides combined, so... 
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Feb 8, 2014 22:49
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Pimpmust posted:Hmm, yeah that might be it. One of the weird things about mobile suit combat as depicted in Gundam is that ace pilots are so disproportionately effective that normal soldiers are basically ineffective against them. Even the "realistic" 08th MS Team obeys this trope; Norris in a modified Gouf utterly humiliates six times his number in cutting edge Federation mobile suits singlehandedly without breaking a sweat and only dies after the fact because he commits suicide. Johnny Ridden and Shin Matsunaga from the MSVs supposedly shot down totally implausible numbers of enemy MS over the OYW, something like 150+ each which is amusingly preposterous because the Federation only started deploying MS in significant numbers like halfway through. Char is Char, etc. It's not that Zeon ran out of trained pilots by the time Gelgoogs hit the field, it's that they ran short of ace pilots while the Federation still had dudes like Amuro, Yazan, <insert sidestory main character here> running around in large part due to drip feeding a lot of their best talent into the White Base Meat Grinder and wasting bajillions of resources on stupid wunderwaffen.
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Feb 8, 2014 23:26
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Norris loving Packard is just that good man.
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Feb 8, 2014 23:40
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Semi-related to that, one of the things about Gundam that's a little preposterous is the sheer amount of mobile suit variants manufactured in the One Year War... especially considering that the time frame of the original Gundam series and all the OVAs and fiction set in it occurs from late September 0079 to January 1st. GMs and Doms were introduced in the last months of the war and have a ton of variants, and the craziest is the Gelgoog, which came out within the last couple weeks but still has an upgraded Gelgoog Jager and so on. If it were say, a Six Year War like WWII, it might make a little more sense. Of course, we all know this was so that Bandai could sell model kits. But it's really weird that until late 0079, the only mobile suits were Zakus. The Gundam didn't see combat till September and GMs didn't come out till November or December or whenever the Battle of Jaburo was. Pretty much all Gundam fiction and games set during the OYW are during the last couple months. I like it how The Origin retconned it so that the Guncannon, Guntank and Ball existed prior to the V-Project in September 0079, so the feddies at least had some mobile suits during the beginning of the war. And semi-related to that, mobile suits become really outdated really fast. By Zeta Gundam, none of the OYW suits are used anymore and are all considered relics. In real life, fighter jets and tanks will stick around for decades. I think the Guntank R-44 was like, 5 years old or something like that in F91, and it was in a war museum and considered a relic. GET IN THE ROBOT fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Feb 9, 2014 |
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Feb 8, 2014 23:56
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That's something I've actually been curious about. With the Origin TV series coming out does that mean it'll take priority over the movie trilogy in the canon?
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Feb 9, 2014 00:00
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If it proves popular enough to continue with an animated Zeta Define or something, sure.
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Feb 9, 2014 00:04
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Does The Origin explain any of this stuff better by chance? Should I just read the manga?
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Feb 9, 2014 00:05
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NikkolasKing posted:Does The Origin explain any of this stuff better by chance? Should I just read the manga? Actually yes, but it's not all out in the US, yet, we're only on volume 4 or 5 so far. The Origin is very good, fills in some plot holes, does some continuity fixes and gives us some more backstory in addition to having absolutely GORGEOUS art. I would still recommend watching either the MSG series or movies, though. The Origin is quickly becoming my favorite version of the original MSG but I'm a very long way from finishing it. BlitzBlast posted:If it proves popular enough to continue with an animated Zeta Define or something, sure. You know, I'm actually pretty pumped for an animated version of The Origin and wouldn't object to seeing Zeta Gundam with updated animation, too. Although if they ever animated Zeta Define, they might as well just go "gently caress it" and do ZZ and CCA at that point.
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Feb 9, 2014 00:11
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Honestly ZZ and CCA could really use a remake, so I'd be fine with that.
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Feb 9, 2014 00:15
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BlitzBlast posted:Honestly ZZ and CCA could really use a remake, so I'd be fine with that. Yeah, there's a lot of things in ZZ and CCA that could use some fixing, way more than MSG and Zeta (I don't know about Zeta Define, but all the changes in The Origin are pretty minor and are mostly continuity fixes for nerds and don't change the actual story at all). A ZZ remake could definitely cut down the beginning of the series, and give us more stuff to tie it into CCA. Amuro and Char are even in the intro, but never show up in the actual series (although Glemy Toto was originally going to be Char instead). Oh, and they could try to make Glemy's shift from rookie bumbling kid to leader of a rebel Zeon faction not so loving bizarre. And maybe make Beecha and Mondo less lovely and more likable characters. And maybe cut out an adult Haman Karn hitting on 14 year old Judau. And cut some of the creepy Puru stuff...
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Feb 9, 2014 00:35
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Kanos posted:Johnny Ridden and Shin Matsunaga from the MSVs supposedly shot down totally implausible numbers of enemy MS over the OYW, something like 150+ each which is amusingly preposterous because the Federation only started deploying MS in significant numbers like halfway through. Char is Char, etc. I think if they are counting non MS kills 150+ sounds reasonable. Zeon pilots ran roughshod over the federation for much of the war, and we have comparible real world pilots like the Red Baron with kill counts of 75+ when outnumbered or using inferior machines. quote:And semi-related to that, mobile suits become really outdated really fast. By Zeta Gundam, none of the OYW suits are used anymore and are all considered relics. In real life, fighter jets and tanks will stick around for decades. I think the Guntank R-44 was like, 5 years old or something like that in F91, and it was in a war museum and considered a relic. Depends on the machines. Particularly if military buildup is still a big concern, turn around on designs can happen pretty quickly. This is even more apparent when there are big conceptual changes. In the OYW Mobile suits were still very, very new, so there was a lot of room for miniaturization and perfecting existing designs. Couple this with the fact that many of the designs were probably not ideal considering they were thrown together in months I don't find it hard to believe that in seven years something like a gelgoog could be considered obsolete, especially when things like panoramic monitors, transformations and other goodies started showing up. Also the R-44 was a prototype that never got off the ground, so its probably not the best example.
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Feb 9, 2014 00:44
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Gammatron 64 posted:Semi-related to that, one of the things about Gundam that's a little preposterous is the sheer amount of mobile suit variants manufactured in the One Year War... especially considering that the time frame of the original Gundam series and all the OVAs and fiction set in it occurs from late September 0079 to January 1st. GMs and Doms were introduced in the last months of the war and have a ton of variants, and the craziest is the Gelgoog, which came out within the last couple weeks but still has an upgraded Gelgoog Jager and so on. If it were say, a Six Year War like WWII, it might make a little more sense. I know it's done all to push model sales but if you want to suspend disbelief for a little bit, it's not too far fetched. Rapid advances in an emerging area of technology can lead to very quick obsolescence. I mean, in the timespan between what, 1944 to 1950? You've got the P-47 being withdrawn from service, the P-51 being relegated to ground attack, the P-80 and P-84 being introduced and then the F-86 popping up and sending all of them to non-fighter roles. Throw in some sci-fi scales of economy (ie the entire Earth somehow being under one government) and production improvements (3D PRINTED RICK DOM PROTOTYPES!!!!) and I don't see why not.
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Feb 9, 2014 00:55
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Yeah, all the OYW MS being obsolete by Zeta Gundam isn't that hard of a pill to swallow, because during the OYW, mobile suits were a brand new technology and were right on the bleeding edge. They hadn't been perfected yet. They're like the earliest tanks and planes during World War I, so it makes sense that they would quickly make some big improvements given the technology is in its infancy. Now the literally hundreds of mobile suit variants produced during the OYW is still kind of a hard pill to swallow, especially considering almost all of them came out in the span of 2-4 months, but if Gundam were realistic they probably wouldn't be using 18 meter tall robots in the first place. There's probably like, 20 Gelgoog variants and the Gelgoog came out in the last couple weeks of the war. Gundam at least introduces Minovsky particles that render guided missiles worthless, says their nuclear reactors are the size of four refrigerators and that mobile suits are made out of super-light material and were intended for space instead of combat on earth so they kind of justify it. That said, they are still huge, slow moving targets that are often in bright pastel colors, but well, it's a 70s mecha anime. It's not hard science fiction.
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Feb 9, 2014 01:23
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Gammatron 64 posted:Now the literally hundreds of mobile suit variants produced during the OYW is still kind of a hard pill to swallow, especially considering almost all of them came out in the span of 2-4 months, but if Gundam were realistic they probably wouldn't be using 18 meter tall robots in the first place. There's probably like, 20 Gelgoog variants and the Gelgoog came out in the last couple weeks of the war. Do consider that suits like the Gelgoog had been in production for months. The Gelgoog started its design in may-june of the OYW, and got revamped for beam weapons pretty much right after Zeon saw the Gundam in action. Considering it was supposed to be a full replacement for the Zaku it isn't surprising that they had plans for various terrain types along with modifications after testing. Most of the Gelgoog variants can be described as add-on anyways. Gelgoog MS-14B - High mobility type with more thrusters. Gelgoog MS-14C - Added a long range shoulder cannon Gelgoog MS-14S - Prototype version And so forth.
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Feb 9, 2014 01:44
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Gammatron 64 posted:Now the literally hundreds of mobile suit variants produced during the OYW is still kind of a hard pill to swallow, especially considering almost all of them came out in the span of 2-4 months, but if Gundam were realistic they probably wouldn't be using 18 meter tall robots in the first place. There's probably like, 20 Gelgoog variants and the Gelgoog came out in the last couple weeks of the war. For me, it's just a case of OYW being at its heart a compressed WWII in space, and Zeon being literal space nazis. Given that, it's not hard to equate the seemingly endless number of stupid one-offs that Zeon kept pulling out its collective rear end with the amount of stupid prototype/superweapon/weird variant nonsense that Hitler kept wasting resources on instead of just building more
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Feb 9, 2014 01:45
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Its a little easier to believe the number of variants if you consider that the vast majority them are incredibly minor changes probably were made on-site by ships engineers out of parts on hand.
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Feb 9, 2014 02:07
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3 posted:For me, it's just a case of OYW being at its heart a compressed WWII in space, and Zeon being literal space nazis. Given that, it's not hard to equate the seemingly endless number of stupid one-offs that Zeon kept pulling out its collective rear end with the amount of stupid prototype/superweapon/weird variant nonsense that Hitler kept wasting resources on instead of just building more It's not even just "dumb Nazi experimentals" though, every nation that fought in WW2 had endless amounts of variants and prototypes, some which never really amounted to much. For example, the B-25 was a bomber that also had a couple variants mounting a tank gun on the front as well as a strafing variant that just had 18 machine guns slapped onto it. I mean, the only thing that doesn't really jive is the one year aspect of it but you can always just chalk it up to "well their production and design facilities in the future are probably really advanced so you can have a working prototype ready to go the day after you draw it up in space CAD"
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Feb 9, 2014 02:17
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