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Glory of Arioch posted:Why not? Geddons have the same drone damage bonus (read: not application bonus) as a dominix and have bonused neut range, monster large capacitors, MJDs, and a large cargohold allowing a huge range of tricks when refitting off of a mobile depot. If you have Amarr BS trained already and have good drone skills, it can perform acceptably. Aren't Guristas laser resistant though? And it's slow, expensive, neuts do nothing to rats...etc etc. Guess I don't see why you wouldn't just use, well, any other drone ship.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:00
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CainFortea posted:Look, I'll try and do this simply for you Tuxedo. If inties were balanced and fair, then why is it almost always interceptor gangs? HAC gangs are less and less often, hell even blops gangs are becoming less frequent. Because Deklein is a million miles away from anywhere hostiles might possibly consider living. Of course they're going to use ships that are exceptionally good at avoiding capture and out-running intel, that's what the redesigned interceptors are for. The only coherent argument I've heard for them being broken in the first place is Smiling Vagrant's complaint that literally nothing a gatecamp can do can catch them; I agree that that's kind of dumb and have no problem with the agility changes.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:01
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S-Alpha posted:But it's still the same "a bloo bloo bloo, this thing I like that's really good should stay really good" whining. I have no particular personal love or hate for interceptors, and totally applauded the agility nerf that removed the 2s warp. I also think the 8au/s warp speed is just a bit ridiculous (not the absolute number, but the spread in warp speeds between the fastest & slowest ships is really crazy. I'd love to do some slight tweeks to that system). But what additional nerfs do you want? Nullification is the ability that makes them work, do you want to get rid of that? Do you want their base agility to be so bad that even with 2x istabs they take 4 seconds to warp? What exactly do you think is so OP? A ship that is really good at one particular hyper-specific task and can be completely countered by multiple other ship types isn't overpowered. It's just a gimmick that you are too lazy to deal with.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:02
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Trabisnikof posted:I've still lost more VNIs to rats than to interceptors. Ditto. (Only with Dominixes and Ishtars.)  Honestly, I don't even consider Interceptor gangs to be that bad to ratters (at least if you're paying attention to intel), the problem for me is that it allows shitlords to move through our territory with impunity. That's just insulting, every time they just gently caress off through a gatecamp. If their agility were brought down enough to make it so that, assuming an agility fit, they could be brought down by a halfway decent gatecamp, then they can keep their bubble immunity as far as I care. Klyith posted:"a bloo bloo bloo a thing that I dislike can get around my minimum-effort security blanket and kill me when I'm not paying attention or even sitting in front of the computer" Like I said, any ratter paying attention can get safe or even fight off a small enough gang without any trouble. The issues come from trying to catch them. Pay attention. ACES CURE PLANES fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 19:04
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Famethrowa posted:Aren't Guristas laser resistant though? And it's slow, expensive, neuts do nothing to rats...etc etc. It's a good thing that the geddon isn't a laserboat, then. It's actually a solid choice, you can use whatever highslot weapons you have the skills for since there's no specific bonuses and the long range neuts are going to make hostiles think twice before trying to engage you.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:04
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I wouldn't mind seeing agility and warp initiation time decoupled. That way you could set a 2.1 or 2.2 second floor, or whatever it takes for catching someone to be an issue of RSB + a reflex check instead of impossible, without worrying about the effect it'll have on ships that do stay and fight.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:09
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Vatek posted:It's a good thing that the geddon isn't a laserboat, then. afk rat with drones and fill your highs with nuets and rapid light missle launchers 
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Feb 20, 2014 19:10
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CainFortea posted:Look, I'll try and do this simply for you Tuxedo. If inties were balanced and fair, then why is it almost always interceptor gangs? HAC gangs are less and less often, hell even blops gangs are becoming less frequent. It's like you people haven't even looked into our history or something. This is what we used to do to other people. And we mocked them when they complained! S-Alpha posted:If their agility were brought down enough to make it so that, assuming an agility fit, they could be brought down by a halfway decent gatecamp, then they can keep their bubble immunity as far as I care. edit: Tuxedo Catfish's idea isn't bad though. A minimum 3-tick warpout would be an adequate inty nerf and make catching a covert+nullified T3 a bit more possible. Klyith fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 19:11
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Famethrowa posted:Aren't Guristas laser resistant though? And it's slow, expensive, neuts do nothing to rats...etc etc. Modern Armageddons don't use lasers -- they are like scorpions in that they are bonused for electronic warfare instead of having laser bonuses. On top of this, they have a 10% drone damage and hitpoints per level of Amarr Battleship bonus, identical to the Dominix bonus, and you can pick whatever kind of damage you want for drones to do, so they will perform just fine at Deklein ratting. In fact, if you are having problems with interceptors in Deklein, the Armageddon is a solid choice to make gangs think twice about engaging you. An Amarr BS 5 geddon can neut to 30km, which is the max range of a warp disruptor II without heat. Neuts kill interceptors dead in no time flat. No one with a brain will ever engage you in an interceptor while you are flying a geddon.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:11
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The only coherent argument I've heard for them being broken in the first place is Smiling Vagrant's complaint that literally nothing a gatecamp can do can catch them; I agree that that's kind of dumb and have no problem with the agility changes. Isn't that the complaint that this discussion is about in the first place, though? The agility changes not quite being enough to get rid of "uncatchable interceptors" because sub-2s warps are still achievable? I've recently discovered that the Keres is an Actual Good Ship now via flying them on harpyfleets, once I get out of this loving Dominix I definitely need to ship a few up to Deklein, fit them for fast lock, and put them through their paces in home defense.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:12
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I wouldn't mind seeing agility and warp initiation time decoupled. That way you could set a 2.1 or 2.2 second floor, or whatever it takes for catching someone to be an issue of RSB + a reflex check instead of impossible, without worrying about the effect it'll have on ships that do stay and fight. Now that is an idea I could get behind. Keeps them mobile in a fight while still catchable by a decent gatecamp. I dunno how they'd work it, but it is definitely a good idea.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:12
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Dallan Invictus posted:Isn't that the complaint that this discussion is about in the first place, though? The agility changes not quite being enough to get rid of "uncatchable interceptors" because sub-2s warps are still achievable? No, mostly it's been a fun but stupid slapfight of "you sound like an eve-o poster!" "No you!" My first post was in response to someone who claimed to be able to catch them with sensor boosters, though.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:17
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I see ceptors as little risk little reward. Its better than afk cloakers.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:19
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Klyith posted:This is what we used to do to other people. And we mocked them when they complained! Right but it's totally different this time around, because Goons can't take being annoyed/harassed 
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Feb 20, 2014 19:19
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Klyith posted:It's like you people haven't even looked into our history or something. This is what we used to do to other people. And we mocked them when they complained! Last night, a reviled alliance that owns half the game's space used the overwhelming power of a broken mechanic to try to kill an alliance during a war in the southeast. The defenders bravely struck forth with an army of T1 cruisers supporting a small group of battleships - all they could muster. The attackers seem unstoppable, fueled by the serf labor of their renters and made invincible by the might of their supercapital fleet. 
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Feb 20, 2014 19:20
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Uba Stij posted:Right but it's totally different this time around, because Goons can't take being annoyed/harassed This is very sad, but very true. Our collective response to the interceptor change hasn't been to move to ceptor-proof ratting fits that *gasp* might have lower isk/hr, it's been to lose the same ships in droves and whine about it. 
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Feb 20, 2014 19:20
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Klyith posted:totally applauded the agility nerf that removed the 2s warp. No such thing happend - that's the complaint. They were nerfed, but the thing that made them broken wasn't removed because the nerf wasn't enough. Which is why I brought it up - it's similar to the drone nerf. You can still make fleets with 9/10 members AFK. Hiowf fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 19:21
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Famethrowa posted:Aren't Guristas laser resistant though? And it's slow, expensive, neuts do nothing to rats...etc etc. More serious than my previous answer; Geddons don't have any bonus to lasers, so there is no reason to fit them. Mine is fitted with 5 Cruise launchers and 2 heavy neuts. The neuts aren't for rats, they're for gankers. The Geddon gives them a 30km range, which lets you land them on on most things that are pointing you except (I think) a Keres. Yes, there are better ships to use but I already had the skills to fly a Geddon with comparable ticks to a VNI and much better defense. I didn't want to sideline my training logi and fun ships for the sake of improving my ratting income. I wouldn't tell anyone to aim for a Geddon for ratting, but if you already have Amarr BS and drone/missile skills, its fine. Edit: Haha, Glory beat me to basically everything in this post. Ashcans fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 19:22
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Because Deklein is a million miles away from anywhere hostiles might possibly consider living. Of course they're going to use ships that are exceptionally good at avoiding capture and out-running intel, that's what the redesigned interceptors are for. Tuxedo Catfish posted:
So are you just stirring poo poo up? Or did you suddenly realize how dumb you are and change your mind? The problem isn't "Inties are fast". The problem is "Some inties are uncatchable".
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Feb 20, 2014 19:24
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Glory of Arioch posted:This is very sad, but very true. Our collective response to the interceptor change hasn't been to move to ceptor-proof ratting fits that *gasp* might have lower isk/hr, it's been to lose the same ships in droves and whine about it. I'm just shocked people are that serious about ratting as opposed to the other ways to make ISK that's not as tedious/dull. Scamming is awesome in ISK income for me. Also the whole "it's bullshit you can AFK ina Slowcat but let me AF in my VNI/Ishtar" logic is weird but I'm not a ratter so maybe there's some difference I must be missing.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:25
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CainFortea posted:So are you just stirring poo poo up? Or did you suddenly realize how dumb you are and change your mind? Is... that supposed to be a gotcha? I didn't change my mind. Those posts are saying the same thing. Barely catchable good, uncatchable bad but in a fairly insignificant way given how much good the same mechanics enable.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:26
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Is... that supposed to be a gotcha? Firstly, "catchable if you don't fit like a scrub" does not equal "uncatchable". Secondly, having a class of ship that is uncatchable is not particularly fun, nor is it particularly good gameplay. And they aren't insignificant. Just because it isn't hillariously broken doesn't mean it isn't broken.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:29
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Artificer posted:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4259845#post4259845 Is exploration really profitable enough as is to warrant a nerf? I'm not being facetious, I genuinly don't know. From what I have seen so far, it's very luck-based whether you a) get a decent amount of sites and b) whether they drop anything worthwhile. Surely, mid- to longterm, other occupations should give significantly higher (and steadier, i.e. more easily calculable) incomes, and the scatter-mechanic further limits how much you reel in by forcing you to limit yourself to targeting a few specific containers. Is this significantly different in wormholes and does exploration become much more profitable there? Why does it need a nerf?
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Feb 20, 2014 19:31
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Uba Stij posted:I'm just shocked people are that serious about ratting as opposed to the other ways to make ISK that's not as tedious/dull. Scamming is awesome in ISK income for me. Also the whole "it's bullshit you can AFK ina Slowcat but let me AF in my VNI/Ishtar" logic is weird but I'm not a ratter so maybe there's some difference I must be missing. Yeah, I don't really get it, either. I personally view ratting as what you do when you are new and/or destitute, and that it is only a stepping stone to more elegant, less efforty money making. Not everyone sees it my way. I can sympathize with the AFK thing, though -- PVE in this game is horrid and any shortcuts you can take on it is generally welcomed. I still feel like the AFK heavy drone ratting meta has a finite lifetime; CCP can't have failed to notice the 20,000+ NPCs killed in conquerable nullsec daily per system.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:34
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Is... that supposed to be a gotcha? Insignificant to whom? You? This is entirely subjective. A lot of folks are mad that there is zero counterplay to a roaming interceptor gang unless they decide to engage you. Of course it is going to piss people off. Just because interceptors can't be a doctrine backbone choice that nets an alliance gains in sovereignty does not mean that they are exempt from balance considerations. The interceptor power level has also created very stale gameplay. Interceptors are easily 95% of what I see these days. If the same logical reasoning behind "please nerf drone assist because it has become ubiquitous and has made for stale gameplay and strategy" applies, then I see no reason why the same reasoning should not apply to interceptors. They are everywhere, and where once there was gameplay created by roamers (we would form up to defend) we now just decide to gently caress off instead.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:35
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CainFortea posted:Firstly, "catchable if you don't fit like a scrub" does not equal "uncatchable". Ceptors were "uncatchable" if you travel fit them even before the rubicon changes. Just had to fit an imp cloak and use the MWD->Warp Trick. (And, if there was any danger of being decloaked using the cloak to get back to gate)
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Feb 20, 2014 19:36
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Uba Stij posted:I'm just shocked people are that serious about ratting as opposed to the other ways to make ISK that's not as tedious/dull. Scamming is awesome in ISK income for me. Also the whole "it's bullshit you can AFK ina Slowcat but let me AF in my VNI/Ishtar" logic is weird but I'm not a ratter so maybe there's some difference I must be missing. That's why I stopped ratting, since it was getting too soul draining, but the fact remains that for your average player, scamming is a pretty small pool of potential targets, and hooks are constantly out there. The last time I did scamming, not five minutes after a supercap sale thread was posted, the guy I contacted said he had five goons try to contact him and work something out. The same goes for recruitment scams, there's just more people trying to catch the whale than there are whales to catch. Ratting, on the other hand, allows you to train combat skills, doesn't require much in the way of capital, and you can pretty much always get at least a little cash out of it. It's consistent, reliable money, and that means a lot, especially since you don't need to know the intricate details of stuff like markets or POS management to just shoot red crosses.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:36
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CainFortea posted:Firstly, "catchable if you don't fit like a scrub" does not equal "uncatchable". It also doesn't equal "catchable with the most extreme cases of planning and reaction times," which is a much more appropriate theoretical limit than "if you don't fit like a scrub." CainFortea posted:Secondly, having a class of ship that is uncatchable is not particularly fun, nor is it particularly good gameplay. And they aren't insignificant. Just because it isn't hillariously broken doesn't mean it isn't broken. Wrong on the first count, being uncatchable is a blast. It's not great gameplay, but interceptors being uniquely useful in large fleet fights and reinvigorated as a solo/small gang ship is a bigger positive effect than the negative that they're uncatchable in all situations instead of just 99% of them. In an ideal situation, someone who meticulously planned their gatecamp to catch interceptors should be able to -- likely with something like multiple ideally fit ships for the purpose on both sides. I'd like to see this some day, even. But certainly not at the cost of an interceptor that aligns like a cruiser, or even an assault frigate. Das Butterbrot posted:Ceptors were "uncatchable" if you travel fit them even before the rubicon changes. Just had to fit an imp cloak and use the MWD->Warp Trick. (And, if there was any danger of being decloaked using the cloak to get back to gate) You could bubble them pre-Rubicon. You couldn't really stop them from crashing, though, so you'd need good sabre pilots on both sides of the gate to have a shot, and there was room for either of them or the interceptor to goof. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 19:40
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Uba Stij posted:I'm just shocked people are that serious about ratting as opposed to the other ways to make ISK that's not as tedious/dull. Scamming is awesome in ISK income for me. Also the whole "it's bullshit you can AFK ina Slowcat but let me AF in my VNI/Ishtar" logic is weird but I'm not a ratter so maybe there's some difference I must be missing. Ratting is a lot better isk/"hour of talking to eve players" though, so it's superior.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:42
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S-Alpha posted:That's why I stopped ratting, since it was getting too soul draining, but the fact remains that for your average player, scamming is a pretty small pool of potential targets, and hooks are constantly out there. The last time I did scamming, not five minutes after a supercap sale thread was posted, the guy I contacted said he had five goons try to contact him and work something out. The same goes for recruitment scams, there's just more people trying to catch the whale than there are whales to catch. I disagree with there being more hunters than prey, there are always marks available. When I was GoonWaffe using GS_Scams alleviated the issue you talked about with the super cap seller as well. I can see how ratting has perks to it, and I don't disagree, but my comment was more about how incredibly dull it was. Holding people ransom lowsec has the same mechanics (you training skills you need/will use vs POS management) and payouts can be higher. Plus its more fun. That's not saying ransoming people is the only way to make ISK but thats what I've made a lot of ISK off of lately in lowsec. Mekchu fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 19:46
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Siets posted:The interceptor power level has also created very stale gameplay. Interceptors are easily 95% of what I see these days. How often do you get out of Deklein? If interceptors were dominant across the universe in many different venues that would be one thing, but it sounds more like people just don't like the idea of a ship that can get in to otherwise quiet, heavily-defended regions and present a small but viable threat. edit: If you were one of the guys on the side of the angels during the Great AFK Cloaking Threadwar, I apologize for asking this question.
Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 19:50
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Ashcans posted:More serious than my previous answer; Geddons don't have any bonus to lasers, so there is no reason to fit them. Mine is fitted with 5 Cruise launchers and 2 heavy neuts. The neuts aren't for rats, they're for gankers. The Geddon gives them a 30km range, which lets you land them on on most things that are pointing you except (I think) a Keres. Fair enough. I don't play enough as I used to, so I forgot about the change to the Geddon. Hey guys, once we finish up this fascinating reiteration on interceptors, can we move on to afk cloaking again?
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Feb 20, 2014 19:55
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For those of us who don't know the exact mechanics involved here, what makes 2 seconds the magic number? Are you immune to targeting during the first and last server ticks of your warpout?
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Feb 20, 2014 19:57
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:How often do you get out of Deklein? If interceptors were dominant across the universe in many different venues that would be one thing, but it sounds more like people just don't like the idea of a ship that can get in to otherwise quiet, heavily-defended regions and present a small but viable threat. Interceptors are half or more of the traffic I see in a nullsec gatecamp these days. I really don't think bubble immunity is necessary to perform their role but CCP disagrees I guess.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:58
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Hollow Talk posted:Is exploration really profitable enough as is to warrant a nerf? I'm not being facetious, I genuinly don't know. From what I have seen so far, it's very luck-based whether you a) get a decent amount of sites and b) whether they drop anything worthwhile. Surely, mid- to longterm, other occupations should give significantly higher (and steadier, i.e. more easily calculable) incomes, and the scatter-mechanic further limits how much you reel in by forcing you to limit yourself to targeting a few specific containers. Is this significantly different in wormholes and does exploration become much more profitable there? Why does it need a nerf? It mostly has to do with the fact that if they remove loot spew all the loot would be grabbable in a sense, but this also relies on the dev in question understanding that most of the loot that comes out of a site is worthless save a few cans anyways. Theoretically it should be a small nerf, but this is CCP we're talking about.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:59
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I don't see CCP needing ceptors because CCP seems to be trying to rumble big alliances up with small gang poo poo. Alchemy, Siphons, ceptor changes, these mobile ports, mobile jammers etc etc...
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Feb 20, 2014 19:59
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Thurin posted:For those of us who don't know the exact mechanics involved here, what makes 2 seconds the magic number? Are you immune to targeting during the first and last server ticks of your warpout? Before the first tick, they were cloaked. The second you see them they've just decloaked and you could not have locked them before (because they were cloaked and invisible). So the instant you see them, one second will elapse before you can react. The second second is spent locking, because you cannot apply a disruptor without a lock. On the third second, assuming instant reaction and instant locking, a pre-fired warp disruptor would activate. However if they warp before the third second there is no game mechanic that would allow you to tackle them.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:59
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Thurin posted:For those of us who don't know the exact mechanics involved here, what makes 2 seconds the magic number? Are you immune to targeting during the first and last server ticks of your warpout? Eve resolves every action at a maximum granularity of one second. Thus, in a gatecamp scenario, the first second is spent registering the gate cloak falling off. After that, you have one second to register a lock. Assuming that prefiring your modules lets you apply points immediately after locking (and this is not completely understood to be true or false,) if your align is under 2 seconds, and nothing like a bubble is stopping you from warping, you are not catchable.
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Feb 20, 2014 20:00
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Thurin posted:For those of us who don't know the exact mechanics involved here, what makes 2 seconds the magic number? Are you immune to targeting during the first and last server ticks of your warpout? Server ticks are 1 second, so all actions take at least 1 second to execute regardless of how long they actually take. So at best it takes 1 second to lock and another second to activate a module like a warp disruptor.
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Feb 20, 2014 20:00
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i do cocaine posted:Please post more, but remember that by posting here, you probably push off any chance of getting into Goonwaffe by a measurable amount of months (if that is your goal, space empire is not everyone's cup of tea). You seem to pick up on hints well and your posts at least use punctuation, and you have an idea that you may have goofed, so you're one of the more promising people who have landed in this thread. Thanks. I'm not terribly concerned about being delayed entry into Goonwaffe--I decided to join SA after years of refusing to send Lowtax my money for the discussions not this game. I'm more curious about it than anything else (I currently play SW:TOR), especially after reading about the epic battles on Wired etc. Apologies for my entry into the thread however; I assumed it was a bit more newb friendly as a recruiting thread. I'll continue to read about game elsewhere and resume lurking this thread, barring the odd question. Should I ever decide to try it Groon sounds more my speed (my hardcore gaming is years behind me).
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