|
KomradeX posted:So a few guys got in an argument on my facebook over something I shared about lack of actual diversity in Hollywood movies and it ends with the one (white guy) arguing that affirmative action is racist and than calling my (black) friend a monkey. Maybe I'll post some stuff from it if I can stomach reading it again. I like how angry people seem to get when you try to simply add diversity to things. "We don't want females with their vagainas all over our video games!" "We don't need more blacks in colleges!" "Gays shouldn't be shopping where me and my straight kids shop!" What gets me about Hollywood is they will actively take stories that are cultural and about a certain group and just make everyone white, toss one black guy in for good measure and go with it.
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 04:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 10:30 |
|
|
EXAKT Science posted:I posted a link to this New Yorker article on Facebook, and a libertarian dude I know posted this comment: Or tell them no, and you'd then send them (tasteful) photo's of you and your gay lover having sex while preparing the cake. Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Feb 26, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 05:02
|
|
|
EXAKT Science posted:I posted a link to this New Yorker article on Facebook, and a libertarian dude I know posted this comment: I don't see why "no" isn't the right answer here 
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 05:10
|
|
|
Nice Davis posted:I don't see why "no" isn't the right answer here  Now we see who the real bigot is.ETA: Of course, the real correct answer is that bigoted fuckheads are not a protected group, so you are well within your rights to refuse them service.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 05:12
|
|
|
Discrimination against bigots is a cornerstone of America, Democracy and Freedom. The moment they started to spew nothing but hatred they stopped counting as christians.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 05:14
|
|
|
darthbob88 posted:So you're OK with discriminating against Christians, but not against gays? I think you misread this. The way the question was posed, a "no" answer means "gay bakers shouldn't be able to discriminate against WBC members, just like Christian florists shouldn't be able to discriminate against gay clients." e: Also, the way the question was posed, it's not even a gay shop-owner at all! It's a gay-shop owner, which is someone who sells designer underpants and other gay stuff, I guess? Freedom from government doesn't mean freedom from the rules of punctuation, libertarians! 
pig slut lisa fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Feb 26, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 05:15
|
|
|
So reminder, how do you respond to a "taxation is slavery" argument? Specifically one where the person who is arguing that backs away from specifically comparing the two, but still go on about being "slaves to the state" and "forcibly taking our income"?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 06:31
|
|
|
Gygaxian posted:So reminder, how do you respond to a "taxation is slavery" argument? Specifically one where the person who is arguing that backs away from specifically comparing the two, but still go on about being "slaves to the state" and "forcibly taking our income"? You sever. E: Because seriously there's no arguing with that insanity.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 06:35
|
|
Cat Army 
|
Point out all the ways they personally directly and indirectly benefit from taxes, how the taxes were democratically approved by The People, How you can escape from taxes by moving to a country that has lower ones (oh, that countries a shithole? How sad for you), etc.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 06:37
|
|
|
Gygaxian posted:So reminder, how do you respond to a "taxation is slavery" argument? Specifically one where the person who is arguing that backs away from specifically comparing the two, but still go on about being "slaves to the state" and "forcibly taking our income"? The Iron Rose posted:You sever. I disagree. You can make an inroad here by discussing taxes on the value of land. Setting aside the economic justifications for taxing land, there is a compelling moral argument for taxing the value of land. A "tax is theft" type might respond to an income tax by saying "What right does anyone have to a portion of the value I've created for myself through the sweat of my brow?" And I and pretty much all of us would say that the implicit social contract dictates you share a portion, not to mention the fact that the value of his work was not created solely by him but draws something from other people as well. It's a somewhat defensible argument...at least the logic passes the smell test. But what about taxing the value of land? Well, let's think about where a property's value comes from. Consider the value of the land under NYC's Peninsula Hotel, one of the priciest parcels in the world. The value of the land itself has literally nothing to do with the building sitting on it. Rather, the land's value comes from its location. There are other really nice buildings nearby. There is good transportation infrastructure. The land is close to other destinations people want to be near. In short, the value of the land was created not by anything the property owner did, but by the collective action of everyone else in society. And surely, if society has created value for an individual, then it is fair and moral to recapture that value so that it may be redistributed among society in the way society itself deems fit? I realize there are many other justifications for taxation, all of which I think a reasonable person should agree with. But the land value argument is the strongest for the "tax is theft" holdouts, I think. Anyone who disagrees with that is supporting the position that certain people (in this case, members of society who don't own a given property) are not entitled to the wealth they create, which of course is a position they must disagree with if they think taxation is truly theft.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 06:52
|
|
|
There's always the point made in David Wong's article '6 Things Rich People Need to Stop Saying.'quote:And you literally hear people express it this way -- in libertarian circles they refer to it as "Going Galt" (as in John Galt, the hero of Atlas Shrugged) -- fed up rich people just disconnecting from this annoying "society" thing that's bleeding them dry. If you live in my part of the country, you'll hear hard-working, rural farmer types say, "I got my own piece of land, I grow my own food, all I want is to be left alone." All right, well tell me this, cowboy:
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 07:08
|
|
|
The obvious response, of course, is: "I wouldn't voluntarily call the police, because I choose not to participate in the society and institutions supported by taxpayers. Rather, I would hire a personal security force with the fruits of my labor and pay them to fend off the criminals." If everything is framed in terms of voluntary action, consent, and property rights, isn't the best response to proponents of "taxation is theft" to fight them on their own terms? For example: "By virtue of voluntarily existing in this location, participating in these markets, benefiting from these services, and so forth, you imply consent to an existing social contract that includes taxation."
quickly fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Feb 26, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 07:39
|
|
|
quickly posted:The obvious response, of course, is: "I wouldn't voluntarily call the police, because I choose not to participate in the society and institutions supported by taxpayers. Rather, I would hire a personal security force with the fruits of my labor and pay them to fend off the criminals." If everything is framed in terms of voluntary action, consent, and property rights, isn't the best response to proponents of "taxation is theft" to fight them on their own terms? For example: "By virtue of voluntarily existing in this location, participating in these markets, benefiting from these services, and so forth, you imply consent to an existing social contract that includes taxation." Don't underestimate the sheer number of people who will just say "I'll just die, because that's the moral thing to do." Obviously that isn't what'd really happen for 99% of these people, but I get that poo poo all the time.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 07:48
|
|
|
https://www.facebook.com/groups/ConservativeArmy/permalink/754386174572384/?stream_ref=2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HuSyMbbXK4 quote:Published on Nov 25, 2013
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 09:23
|
|
|
quickly posted:The obvious response, of course, is: "I wouldn't voluntarily call the police, because I choose not to participate in the society and institutions supported by taxpayers. Rather, I would hire a personal security force with the fruits of my labor and pay them to fend off the criminals." If everything is framed in terms of voluntary action, consent, and property rights, isn't the best response to proponents of "taxation is theft" to fight them on their own terms? For example: "By virtue of voluntarily existing in this location, participating in these markets, benefiting from these services, and so forth, you imply consent to an existing social contract that includes taxation." Just about every one of those people rejects the concept of the Social Contract, though, and will often go on at length about how they didn't get to choose what country they were born in.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 10:02
|
|
|
I'm not entirely unconvinced that the best response to "taxation is theft" isn't just straight up laughter. Some ideas are so baldly odious and stupid that the best answer to them is simply to be mocked by society.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 10:09
|
|
|
Kugyou no Tenshi posted:Just about every one of those people rejects the concept of the Social Contract, though, and will often go on at length about how they didn't get to choose what country they were born in. They think it's a literal contract and not a metaphor for a level of mutual obligation that will allow people to live together without wanting to kill each other.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 10:11
|
|
|
VideoTapir posted:They think it's a literal contract and not a metaphor for a level of mutual obligation that will allow people to live together without wanting to kill each other. I'm not sure if you're being facetious. I've certainly spoken to more than a few who understand what the Social Contract is and reject it as a denial of "free will" or "individualism", claiming that because they did not choose their society they should not be expected to operate within its boundaries. Of course, most of them that I've known are public university students/graduates who don't seem to understand that their schooling, and the federal loans that paid for their degrees, are results of the Social Contract - or they don't care, and are just FYGM types who are more than happy to reap the benefit of the same society they so abhor. Mornacale posted:I'm not entirely unconvinced that the best response to "taxation is theft" isn't just straight up laughter. Some ideas are so baldly odious and stupid that the best answer to them is simply to be mocked by society. It's hard to engage the audience when you're laughing so hard you can't see, though, so sometimes we have to keep a straight face and a stiff upper lip long enough to explain why that guy's a moron. Then we laugh until we can no longer form coherent thoughts.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 10:29
|
|
|
Mornacale posted:I'm not entirely unconvinced that the best response to "taxation is theft" isn't just straight up laughter. Some ideas are so baldly odious and stupid that the best answer to them is simply to be mocked by society. The last time I heard someone say "taxation is theft" I straight up replied "Yeah, so?" This of course prompted "B-but don't you care? Theft is bad!" I responded that just like killing someone is not bad in all situations (such as self-defense) so too is theft not bad in all situations. Then they got mad and called me a statist idiot, which was pretty much going to happen no matter what I said, so it saved me a lot of time and energy. Unfortunately I can't get rid of my frustrations so easily with what happened yesterday, where I was dogpiled on by multiple people who said that there is absolutely nothing racist about someone saying "The UK should close off its borders because the foreigners are taking our jobs and destroying our culture."
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 10:34
|
|
Twelve by Pies posted:The last time I heard someone say "taxation is theft" I straight up replied "Yeah, so?" This of course prompted "B-but don't you care? Theft is bad!" I responded that just like killing someone is not bad in all situations (such as self-defense) so too is theft not bad in all situations. Then they got mad and called me a statist idiot, which was pretty much going to happen no matter what I said, so it saved me a lot of time and energy. Oh, man, I like (a modified version) of this idea. "Taxation is theft." "Capital punishment is murder." Then watch the contortions as they try to explain why theft is not OK, but murder is. Twelve by Pies posted:... I was dogpiled on by multiple people who said that there is absolutely nothing racist about someone saying "The UK should close off its borders because the foreigners are taking our jobs and destroying our culture." There's not; that is clearly xenophobic.
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 10:54
|
|
|
Centripetal Horse posted:Oh, man, I like (a modified version) of this idea. What is the difference between racism and xenophobia?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 11:00
|
|
|
VideoTapir posted:What is the difference between racism and xenophobia? Racism is the belief that different races are inferior or superior to each other. Xenophobia is fear of foreigners. It may or may not be racist in nature, depending on which foreigners the xenophobe is wringing their hands about.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 11:16
|
|
|
Dr. Arbitrary posted:Can you give me a good source for this? Best thing I could find on the quick is http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/ccp/20/3/176/ and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2957652/ I misspoke when mentioning IQ, but there is a plethora of evidence that being fearful, worried and anxious impairs your cognitive abilities. snorch fucked around with this message at 11:42 on Feb 26, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 11:39
|
|
|
Leospeare posted:Racism is the belief that different races are inferior or superior to each other. What's a race?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 11:50
|
|
|
VideoTapir posted:What's a race? The person who uses that term usually mean people who look different than they do, regardless of nationality.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 11:54
|
|
|
Kugyou no Tenshi posted:Just about every one of those people rejects the concept of the Social Contract, though, and will often go on at length about how they didn't get to choose what country they were born in. The problem is that social contracts are sets of norms and obligations, and whether there are such norms and obligations is an empirical question. You can't reject the notion of a social contract unless you simultaneously reject the proposition that societies come with sets of norms and obligations that place expectations and restrictions on behavior. I suppose that one could argue that societies shouldn't come with these norms and expectations, but opponents of social contract theory nevertheless choose to participate in societies with them (under a suitably broad notion of choice). Assuming that "taxation is theft" proponents aren't just greedy and antisocial, I take the view to be a combination of (a) a failure to track and acknowledge the ways in which they regularly imply consent to behave in certain ways, including paying taxes; and (b) a failure to recognize that their voluntary participation in society comes with a verifiable set of norms and expectations, such as that they pay taxes. So I don't think the "didn't get to choose what country they were born in" arguments cut it, at least as long as the "taxation is theft" people continue to do things like own property and drive cars and build houses. I might be taking an extreme view, however.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 11:59
|
|
|
MariusLecter posted:The person who uses that term usually mean people who look different than they do, regardless of nationality. Depending who you're asking and when, race and nationality may be interchangeable. Unless they're literally against ALL non-UK-citizens coming to work; AND display no hostility to nonwhite citizens, I think it's pretty safe to call them racist.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 12:00
|
|
|
Centripetal Horse posted:Oh, man, I like (a modified version) of this idea. This is a very bad idea, since almost everyone who sincerely believes taxation to be theft is also at least nominally against capital punishment. Say "cutting welfare is murder". Alternatively, "private property is theft".
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 12:27
|
|
|
VideoTapir posted:Unless they're literally against ALL non-UK-citizens coming to work; AND display no hostility to nonwhite citizens, I think it's pretty safe to call them racist. I agree. The conversation as paraphrased by Twelve by Pies didn't seem overtly racist, but the actual conversation may have. Regardless, it's not an unreasonable conclusion to jump to.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 12:37
|
|
|
Gygaxian posted:So reminder, how do you respond to a "taxation is slavery" argument? Specifically one where the person who is arguing that backs away from specifically comparing the two, but still go on about being "slaves to the state" and "forcibly taking our income"? The fact that they are free to leave and live on some deserted island at any time. They don't even need a passport, they can just get on a boat and drive off into the ocean to starve to death in international waters.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 14:05
|
|
|
pillsburysoldier posted:https://www.facebook.com/groups/ConservativeArmy/permalink/754386174572384/?stream_ref=2 The name jumped out at me, so I googled a bit and it turns out that the Mr Steve Pieczenik that co-wrote (ghost wrote?) the Net Force and Op-Center series of Tom Clancy novels and the Mr Steve Pieczenik that was behind this quote and has appeared on infowars as well as other right-wing news outfits are one and the same person. I read so many of the drat things too, in retrospect it should have stood out to me that there was one particular plotline where a 'roid-raging perp breaks into the Net Force commander's house and is only stopped because he taught his 8-year-old son how to shoot and where to find the gun he keeps in the house. EDIT: The commander's wife by the way used to be his secretary/chief-of-staff, who knows the Indonesian martial art of Silat and stopped would-be assassins using a kris knife while still looking very hot. Looking back it was almost Day-by-Day-ish in terms of wish fulfillment. gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Feb 26, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 14:25
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:EDIT: The commander's wife by the way used to be his secretary/chief-of-staff, who knows the Indonesian martial art of Silat and stopped would-be assassins using a kris knife while still looking very hot. Looking back it was almost Day-by-Day-ish in terms of wish fulfillment. Were the assassins black? Muslims? Black muslims?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 14:34
|
|
|
VideoTapir posted:Were the assassins black? Muslims? Black muslims? Several of the books were published prior to 9/11, so the villains were mostly Russians, Chechnyans and Chinese.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 14:41
|
|
|
pd187 posted:The thing where "Libertarian" Republicans like Rand Paul and truther You could say the same thing about involving the state if a racist calls the cops to kick a black kid out of their home. quote:unless you're paying a private security force like Blackwater to rough up customers you don't like So long as they're on the business' property, right? Glad we found the line you're willing to stop at when defending civil rights.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 14:44
|
|
This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
27 year olds are cool with "private" business discrimination never made sense to me - unless you're paying a private security force like Blackwater to rough up customers you don't like, small businesses tend to rely on the police to kick out anyone they ban from their store, just like in Jim Crow days. Allowing a bakery to refuse service to gay or Black or female or Jewish customers introduces "the state" into the equation by creating a situation where government employees are required to enforce blatant discrimination and bigotry.
VideoTapir posted:Were the assassins black? Muslims? Black muslims? Redundant in many American minds.
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 15:29
|
|
|
Mornacale posted:This is a very bad idea, since almost everyone who sincerely believes taxation to be theft is also at least nominally against capital punishment. Umm I don't know what universe you live in but in general my experience is the exact opposite. Generally it's right wingers who don't care for the idea of the "Gubmint" taking their money and giving it to "those" people who believe that taxation is theft and they are drat near universally supportive of the death penalty.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 16:32
|
|
|
Skex posted:Umm I don't know what universe you live in but in general my experience is the exact opposite. Generally it's right wingers who don't care for the idea of the "Gubmint" taking their money and giving it to "those" people who believe that taxation is theft and they are drat near universally supportive of the death penalty. They're not talking about right-wingers in particular, they're talking about Libertarians. Who may usually lean right, but are against the state doing anything like taxation or actually enforcing rules, and logically this extends to capital punishment. Sometimes you find the rare yellow bellied hypocrite out in the wilds, that is totally against taxation and all that, but still wants the government to handle all that messy business of killing the people they don't like, but it's a rarity.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 16:44
|
|
|
 I don't think diversity means what you think it means. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 16:46
|
|
|
Twelve by Pies posted:The last time I heard someone say "taxation is theft" I straight up replied "Yeah, so?" This of course prompted "B-but don't you care? Theft is bad!" I responded that just like killing someone is not bad in all situations (such as self-defense) so too is theft not bad in all situations. Then they got mad and called me a statist idiot, which was pretty much going to happen no matter what I said, so it saved me a lot of time and energy. You should have asked them if they would be fine with Americans and western Europeans immigrating. The BNP, which is notorious for pushing the "NO MORE ROOM" card, has admitted to believing this.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 17:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 10:30 |
|
|
Got this one from my normally apolitical mom today. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2014 17:35
|
|
