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all japan womens had no problem putting on matches just as good as and better than an extremely large amount of men and drawing legit crowds of 30k+ all on their own
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Feb 28, 2014 06:55
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it is absolutely sexist to hold women to a lower standard than men and that's why calling Paige/Emma an HM is ridiculous. it was an average match by any metric. I've seen both of them have better.
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Feb 28, 2014 07:14
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Cardboard Box posted:it is absolutely sexist to hold women to a lower standard than men and that's why calling Paige/Emma an HM is ridiculous. it was an average match by any metric. I've seen both of them have better. Is the womens title sexist? Or women's sports at all? I'm just thinking through whether it's worse to diminish their accomplishment with a B version of a title of to almost completely disavow them because the product so rarely compares. At the same time Wrestling is just as much theater and art as it is athleticism so maybe I'm off base and telling a great story is still the expectation. Please don't take my posts as assertions. My mind is far less made up on this than yours. Just two competing positions in my head with regard to recognition. I haven't seen this particular match yet so nothing to define there. I do know we give HMs out frequently to just decent matches while ignoring things like the Del Rio Ziggler double turn which should have an HM for storytelling alone. And as far as New Japan goes, that doesn't suss out in our MOTYC threads where there's much fewer women represented. Sample size and all that, obviously is important.
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Feb 28, 2014 07:23
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I really didn't want to start that conversation here, or even say "this is what HM should be" - although I suppose it's how it came off because I'm bad at words, so I'll eat the probation if I must, sorry Hulka -, it's just that I find it hard not grading that match on a curve taking into account how bad mainstream women's wrestling in the West has been since, well, its inception - hi, Moolah. I got into wrestling because of 90's joshi, so I really want to see more of what we got today than the usual WWE/TNA fare. I honestly think it was one of the best women's wrestling matches I saw this year, easily the best I've seen since the last Emma/Paige, and the context alone puts it into my favorite matches of the year so far.
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Feb 28, 2014 07:38
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okay, that's fair. for the record I was not trying to be confrontational with you, we've just had a lot of real dumb arguments in these threads in the past over what an HM should be. you're alright in my book. Cardboard Box fucked around with this message at 08:04 on Feb 28, 2014 |
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Feb 28, 2014 07:47
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I Before E posted:HM: Adrian Neville/Bo Dallas, NXT Arrival. 2nd.
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Feb 28, 2014 07:48
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Dias posted:I really didn't want to start that conversation here, or even say "this is what HM should be" - although I suppose it's how it came off because I'm bad at words, so I'll eat the probation if I must, sorry Hulka -, it's just that I find it hard not grading that match on a curve taking into account how bad mainstream women's wrestling in the West has been since, well, its inception - hi, Moolah. I got into wrestling because of 90's joshi, so I really want to see more of what we got today than the usual WWE/TNA fare. I honestly think it was one of the best women's wrestling matches I saw this year, easily the best I've seen since the last Emma/Paige, and the context alone puts it into my favorite matches of the year so far. That rule is mostly there for if somebody tries to argue about what an HM should be. Don't worry about it.
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Feb 28, 2014 07:56
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John Cena posted:all japan womens had no problem putting on matches just as good as and better than an extremely large amount of men and drawing legit crowds of 30k+ all on their own As far as women's stuff goes, as much love as '90s AJW gets (and it's great no doubt) I'd argue that the Crush-era stuff from the '80s is better overall. Lots of great in-ring stuff combined with some of the hottest crowds you'll ever see. Chigusa Nagayo and Dump Matsumoto are easily among the best babyfaces and heels of all time respectively imo.
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Feb 28, 2014 08:12
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MJBuddy posted:Is the womens title sexist? Or women's sports at all? I'm just thinking through whether it's worse to diminish their accomplishment with a B version of a title of to almost completely disavow them because the product so rarely compares. Well, even if the Divas and Knockouts and so on were well supported, the networks that air wrestling tend to frown on male-on-female violence so you have to have separate divisions.
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Feb 28, 2014 08:19
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Suben posted:As far as women's stuff goes, as much love as '90s AJW gets (and it's great no doubt) I'd argue that the Crush-era stuff from the '80s is better overall. Lots of great in-ring stuff combined with some of the hottest crowds you'll ever see. Chigusa Nagayo and Dump Matsumoto are easily among the best babyfaces and heels of all time respectively imo. Yeah imo Chigusa is almost on par with Hogan as far as best babyfaces go, the only slight against her is that she never drew as much as Hogan did but she was still a major draw and, among AJW's audience, about as over as anyone I've ever seen.
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Feb 28, 2014 10:35
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MJBuddy posted:
Which reminds me, I forgot to nominate it myself. HM: Io Shirai vs Natsuki*Taiyo
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Feb 28, 2014 13:02
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about women
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Just watched Cesaro/Zayn on NXT Arrival, want to throw in my nod to any HM nomination it has been given. That's the kind of match we should be seeing as the blow-off to an Intercontinental Title feud - these guys should be kings of the midcard ala HHH/Rock back in the day. A very, very good match that made both guys look great, and the commentary was an excellent addition. Edit: Oh man the post-match stuff was cool as hell too. Edit Edit: I see everybody else gave it a MOTYC nomination, so I guess this is my nomination for that match as an HM. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Feb 28, 2014 |
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Feb 28, 2014 13:46
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Jerusalem posted:Just watched Cesaro/Zayn on NXT Arrival, want to throw in my nod to any HM nomination it has been given. That's the kind of match we should be seeing as the blow-off to an Intercontinental Title feud - these guys should be kings of the midcard ala HHH/Rock back in the day. A very, very good match that made both guys look great, and the commentary was an excellent addition. My hope is that Cesaro wins the IC title at WM and they bring up Zayn to do just that. It'd be fun. Maybe put Zayn back under a hood for marketing purposes.
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Feb 28, 2014 15:09
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Cardboard Box posted:it is absolutely sexist to hold women to a lower standard than men and that's why calling Paige/Emma an HM is ridiculous. it was an average match by any metric. I've seen both of them have better. I held that match on the same standard as I do men's matches. It had roughly the same quality as Big E/Swagger from EC (with the same issues: poor footwork) for the majority of the match. When they had to take it home with the sitout powerbomb, 2.9999~ first finisher kickout, and Paige going sorta nuts and breaking out a classic Joshi sub it brought the match into its own and made it a solid HM.
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Feb 28, 2014 16:02
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Flameingblack posted:If you want to watch a really good Women's pro wrestling match from this year, watch Io Shirai vs Natsuki*Taiyo and nominate it for HM. Because it was much, much better and smoother than Paige vs Emma. I'll give this an HM. Wish the video quality was better. Pretty hot crowd, excellent fighting spirit, beautiful moonsaults, a shining wizard, and my favorite move from WCW vs. nWo World Tour for a finisher. Don't have the network yet so my Arrival noms will be late. Deal with it.
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Feb 28, 2014 16:39
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Cesaro and Zayn gets a HM from me.
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Feb 28, 2014 21:57
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HM: Laurence Fishburne vs. Mads Mikkelsen, Hannibal, Season 2 Ep. 1, 2/28/14
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Mar 1, 2014 20:59
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HM: Bo Dallas vs Adrian Nevell - Ladder Match - NXT ArRIVAL - 2/27/14 MOTYC: Sami Zayn vs Cesaro - NXT ArRIVAL - 2/27/14
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Mar 2, 2014 01:49
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HM - Elgin/Hero vs. Briscoes vs. Cole/Hardy, ROH TV, 2/15 HM - Andrew Everett vs. Cedric Alexander, ROH TV, 2/22 MOTYC - Sami Zayn vs. Cesaro, NXT Arrival, 2/27 HM - Bo Dallas vs. Adrian Neville, NXT Arrival, 2/27
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Mar 2, 2014 03:57
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Maxwell Lord posted:HM: Laurence Fishburne vs. Mads Mikkelsen, Hannibal, Season 2 Ep. 1, 2/28/14 The reverse suplex spot was great but I think the match relied too heavily on weapon spots 
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Mar 2, 2014 05:13
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HM - AJ Styles vs. Jay Lethal, ROH 12th Anniversary, 2/23 (Aired on ROH TV on 3/1)
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Mar 2, 2014 19:32
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sportsgenius86 posted:
Holy poo poo seconded. That match was surprisingly great. Everett does some insane stuff.
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Mar 2, 2014 22:07
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I'll third Alexander vs. Everett, that was a great match live.
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Mar 2, 2014 22:09
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You know what, an HM for Steen vs O'Reilly from the 2/22 ROH TV. That match was great and would have been a borderline MOTYC if they didn't do the Compton distraction.
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Mar 2, 2014 22:43
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MassRafTer posted:You know what, an HM for Steen vs O'Reilly from the 2/22 ROH TV. That match was great and would have been a borderline MOTYC if they didn't do the Compton distraction. I was on the fence about this but I'll second it. I initially left it off because I felt like I may have been overrating it because I was there live, but gently caress it, I really enjoyed the match. Seriously, people. Watch ROH TV. It's really really good.
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Mar 2, 2014 22:53
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sportsgenius86 posted:I was on the fence about this but I'll second it. I initially left it off because I felt like I may have been overrating it because I was there live, but gently caress it, I really enjoyed the match. My thoughts exactly and I'll third it. Loved the match live, but I'm a Steen mark and I've been trying to cut back on honorable mentions.
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Mar 2, 2014 22:56
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Thauros posted:I'll third Alexander vs. Everett, that was a great match live. Fourthed. Thauros posted:My thoughts exactly and I'll third it. Loved the match live, but I'm a Steen mark and I've been trying to cut back on honorable mentions. Fourthed. sportsgenius86 posted:HM - AJ Styles vs. Jay Lethal, ROH 12th Anniversary, 2/23 (Aired on ROH TV on 3/1) Seconded. The ending felt abrupt but it was brilliantly worked. I'll never stop thinking Lethal's grossly underrated as long as he has matches like that.
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Mar 3, 2014 01:06
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HM: Shield vs Wyatts from Raw. Really good match, interesting storyline undercurrents.
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Mar 4, 2014 05:44
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MassRafTer posted:HM: Shield vs Wyatts from Raw. Really good match, interesting storyline undercurrents. Second.
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Mar 4, 2014 05:44
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MassRafTer posted:HM: Shield vs Wyatts from Raw. Really good match, interesting storyline undercurrents. Thirded
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Mar 4, 2014 05:47
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Fourthed.
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Mar 4, 2014 05:53
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Nthed. The crowd was super hot for it and it had great storytelling and another set of ridiculous spots.
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Mar 4, 2014 07:15
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I'm always reluctant to say "just keep these two in a feud forever" because inevitably too much of anything gets dull, but MAN those two teams just have amazing chemistry.
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Mar 4, 2014 18:12
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sportsgenius86 posted:HM - AJ Styles vs. Jay Lethal, ROH 12th Anniversary, 2/23 (Aired on ROH TV on 3/1) I'll third that. ROH TV has been great lately.
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Mar 6, 2014 07:31
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Okada vs Ibushi for HM. Way better than their DDT match from last year.
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Mar 7, 2014 16:53
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I liked that match a whole heck a of lot and consider is a fairly strong MOTY contender so... MOYTC: Okada vs. Ibushi - NJPW 3/6/14
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Mar 8, 2014 01:52
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oatgan posted:I liked that match a whole heck a of lot and consider is a fairly strong MOTY contender so... I'll second this.
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Mar 8, 2014 01:57
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hulkamatt can we also add a German Suplex of the Year category because I would also like to nominate it for that
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Mar 8, 2014 02:12
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Thauros posted:I'll second this. 3rd quote:hulkamatt can we also add a German Suplex of the Year category because I would also like to nominate it for that If I never see anyone take a german like that again I'd feel pretty comfortable jesus christ 
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Mar 8, 2014 02:36
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oatgan posted:hulkamatt can we also add a German Suplex of the Year category because I would also like to nominate it for that Next to that German Suplex and the sound of Naito and Ishii headbutting each other that NJPW show was nasty.
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Mar 8, 2014 02:45
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