|
HellCopter posted:Call me an idiot, but I've literally never understood the point of naval warfare. Boats seem to be good an killing other boats and nothing more. They barely do any damage when attacking a coastal city and more often then not they just end up destroying themselves. Exactly like land combat, melee units are worthless as a workhorse unit most of the time. Bring 90% ranged units and a melee unit here or there to mop up cities. Battleships are like artillery - they make capturing cities very easy and the AI has no idea at all of how to deal with them.
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2014 21:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 10:03 |
|
|
HellCopter posted:Call me an idiot, but I've literally never understood the point of naval warfare. Boats seem to be good an killing other boats and nothing more. They barely do any damage when attacking a coastal city and more often then not they just end up destroying themselves. Early ships are crap but sea trade routes are extremely powerful, so they're worth the investment to protect them. Frigates/privateers are strong enough in a swarm to take cities if you get them early enough, and ironclads will just straight up obliterate an unprepared city.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2014 21:58
|
|
|
Also, Ironclads are incredibly powerful relative to the era you get them in and can capture coastal cities pretty easily with some Frigate backup.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2014 22:12
|
|
|
Naval units are important because you're a god damned admiral and you're gonna sail your fleet right up Venice's bumhole.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2014 22:14
|
|
|
I actually had a really fun game with the Celts recently by going piety/liberty, the complete opposite of how I normally play. I generated as much early faith as possible, got the reformation belief that gave tourism for each holy building, and then started putting cities everywhere I could while generating great works as quickly as possible. It's the only game I've played recently where I wasn't 1st in science by the mid game (I play on emperor). I had to keep a pretty big army on hand to deter the increasingly pissy AI (I settled that city on the other side of my territory from you Ceasar, calm down!). I was also landlocked, meaning I had to rely on caravans. Making it even harder I took autocracy (gotta get those achievements!), but the double spy-stealing rate and lower unit maintenence did help quite a bit. I would have won a lot earlier if the random number generator hadn't decided to wait until I had over 270 faith to give me my first great prophet. I still got the first religion, but only managed to get cathedrals. By the time I got my second prophet all the rest of the religious buildings had been snatched up. I would have still been able to get mosques if I had gotten my first prophet closer to 200. I definitely agree the Celts are a weaker civ, but I think they're one of the most fun to play if you go all in with their few advantages.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2014 22:29
|
|
|
Hannibal Smith posted:I definitely agree the Celts are a weaker civ, but I think they're one of the most fun to play if you go all in with their few advantages. This is my big problem with Civ V on the higher difficulties - for certain Civs, you CAN'T go all in on anything that isn't science because you will get stomped. I mean, it's an easy fix - play on a lower difficulty - but it's super frustrating.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2014 22:34
|
|
|
I said it before but Race for Religion is a must have mod and it makes factions like the Celts juggernauts.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2014 22:37
|
|
|
redreader posted:YES. They are. If you don't like someone you can just nuke their capital into the stone age (reduce population massively). If you have 2 nukes you can get rid of a pesky unit mob as well as nuke their capital! I managed to find a good amount of Uranium in my territories, so if it comes to it I might just bomb the problem areas. I've got such a border that I've essentially blocked naval passage in one direction, forcing players like England to take a more tedious route in the other direction. War is brewing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2014 22:50
|
|
|
I forgot: another reason to build nukes is so that you have nukes, and all of the other civs come to you and say "I trust in you for you are a wise and benevolent ruler" since your 'army strength' is now +100000000 due to having a few nukes.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2014 23:06
|
|
|
HellCopter posted:Call me an idiot, but I've literally never understood the point of naval warfare. Boats seem to be good an killing other boats and nothing more. They barely do any damage when attacking a coastal city and more often then not they just end up destroying themselves. Frigates are cannons (same ranged strength) that have five movement (six if you open Exploration, which is a decent pre‐Rationalism tree), never expend more than one point per hex, don’t have to set up to fire, and can actually take hits (25 strength vs. 13). If that doesn’t sound good to you, I don’t know what to say. Cannons have a bonus to cities, so it takes more shots to redline a city, but that’s not a problem because they have so much more mobility and so much less threats. Cannons just get wrecked before they can set up and fire all too often. Many players forgo pre‐artillery siege units for composite/cross bows, and with frigates you can have your cake and eat it too.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2014 23:24
|
|
|
I find that on Immortal/quick there's a certain timing where you simply cannot take cities conventionally (without massive losses) because their city strength is too high and every AI on immortal is going to have a sizeable army. It lasts from about the time where the AI gets castles until you have dynamite or flight. Frigates are pretty much the only way you can bypass that, especially if there's enough space to get five or more of them in there. The strength, mobility and ability to take a hit is really good. Unfortunately the AI is utterly terrible at naval warfare so you can't really play an island map without feeling like you're taking advantage. England's ship is even better, it's ridiculous.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2014 23:35
|
|
|
Going back up a bit, one reason to take Goddess of Protection is to keep the civ you plan on rushing from taking it. It's a poo poo pantheon but goddamn if it won't stonewall your Archer/Spearman-based army cold.  The only problem I have with naval warfare is the difficulty of healing naval units -- you have to park them in your own territory (or expend a Great Admiral on them for a one-shot heal, or consume a promotion to heal). I wish you could, I dunno, pay a gold fee when in friendly waters to heal them, like you're contracting out the reconstruction work to your ally or something.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2014 23:36
|
|
|
I'm glad you mentioned Race for Religion, I'm checking it out now and it's really interesting.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2014 23:43
|
|
|
TooMuchAbstraction posted:The only problem I have with naval warfare is the difficulty of healing naval units -- you have to park them in your own territory (or expend a Great Admiral on them for a one-shot heal, or consume a promotion to heal). I wish you could, I dunno, pay a gold fee when in friendly waters to heal them, like you're contracting out the reconstruction work to your ally or something. You only need to take one crap city to have a place to heal, but failing that buy a city‐state if there’s one in the area.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2014 23:45
|
|
|
Doltos posted:I said it before but Race for Religion is a must have mod and it makes factions like the Celts juggernauts. Is that better? Sounds a bit like going from one extreme to another.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 00:13
|
|
|
Gort posted:Is that better? Sounds a bit like going from one extreme to another. It's…different. It changes a lot of the basic mechanics around. Every single pantheon has a different way to generate faith, founder beliefs are not always predicated on what happens when you spread it around, like their role got mixed up with enhancers. Need to test more. Apparently it also spreads around less once you enhance, for some reason.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 00:17
|
|
|
Platystemon posted:You only need to take one crap city to have a place to heal, but failing that buy a city‐state if there’s one in the area. Do city-states really work for that? I thought it had to be territory you control.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 02:15
|
|
|
TooMuchAbstraction posted:Do city-states really work for that? I thought it had to be territory you control. They let you heal, but they can't upgrade. That's another annoying part about naval stuff in general, the things you send on expeditions are always going to end up outdated unless you are taking a few cities.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 02:28
|
|
|
Slim Jim Pickens posted:They let you heal, but they can't upgrade. That's another annoying part about naval stuff in general, the things you send on expeditions are always going to end up outdated unless you are taking a few cities. There’s like one upgrade that matters for most of the ships, so I don’t find it too onerous, except when carriers come along and I need to get a few of those. That can call for annexing a city. TooMuchAbstraction posted:Do city-states really work for that? I thought it had to be territory you control. Yeah. You can even heal in the territory of civs you have open borders with, which is something I forget frequently. Even if they’re guarded and make you pay thrice the usual rate, that’s still a good deal.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 02:35
|
|
|
Platystemon posted:Yeah. You can even heal in the territory of civs you have open borders with, which is something I forget frequently. Even if they’re guarded and make you pay thrice the usual rate, that’s still a good deal. My favorite boost from open borders is granting embarkation for a scout far from home.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 03:24
|
|
|
When running with Reform & Rule, do the Patronage bonuses to conquered city-states also apply to city-states gained through peaceful means like diplomatic marriage?
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 04:04
|
|
|
Do The Evolution posted:I find that on Immortal/quick there's a certain timing where you simply cannot take cities conventionally (without massive losses) because their city strength is too high and every AI on immortal is going to have a sizeable army. It lasts from about the time where the AI gets castles until you have dynamite or flight. Frigates are pretty much the only way you can bypass that, especially if there's enough space to get five or more of them in there. The strength, mobility and ability to take a hit is really good. Unfortunately the AI is utterly terrible at naval warfare so you can't really play an island map without feeling like you're taking advantage. England's ship is even better, it's ridiculous. I dunno, with the last few patches I've found that island maps are no longer an easy win on higher difficulties. The AI might be bad at naval warfare (although it's still much better than G&K and not even remotely near what it was at launch) but it seems to manage its cities better, leveraging its production bonuses for more. I might just be doing something wrong but I seem to have trouble keeping pace on Immortal with anything smaller than Small Continents.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 05:58
|
|
|
Speedball posted:I'm glad you mentioned Race for Religion, I'm checking it out now and it's really interesting. try his Reform and Rule mod too, to modify the Cultural Policies. They obviously are meant to be used at the same time, you'll notice when you put them both up.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 06:23
|
|
|
How far away should you build your cities? Since you can't work more than 3 hexes out from your city, does that mean you should build them 6 hexes apart?
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 06:32
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:How far away should you build your cities? Since you can't work more than 3 hexes out from your city, does that mean you should build them 6 hexes apart? When all you do is capture capitals like I do, you end up with almost no connected borders, but this isn't really a problem either.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 06:52
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:How far away should you build your cities? Since you can't work more than 3 hexes out from your city, does that mean you should build them 6 hexes apart? That's a good rule of thumb, but most of the cities you build aren't going to ever get to the point where they're using all available hexes, so don't worry too much if there's a little overlap. Just remember that water/tundra/desert (sans Petra) isn't worth much so those are effectively dead hexes already.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 06:55
|
|
|
Gabriel Pope posted:Early ships are crap but sea trade routes are extremely powerful, so they're worth the investment to protect them. Frigates/privateers are strong enough in a swarm to take cities if you get them early enough, and ironclads will just straight up obliterate an unprepared city. My most common military strategy is to develop Frigates early and launch coastal raids against nearby unprotected city-states or otherwise belligerent coastal cities. I have 5-6 ships bombard the city, then land a Knight/Cavalry unit or two nearby just as the city defenses are at their lowest point, then I capture the city. I do more offensive strategy early, then spend the late stages defending until I grind up enough of their artillery to begin bombing, then I launch a new invasion once I have tanks.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 19:15
|
|
|
De Nomolos posted:My most common military strategy is to develop Frigates early and launch coastal raids against nearby unprotected city-states or otherwise belligerent coastal cities. I have 5-6 ships bombard the city, then land a Knight/Cavalry unit or two nearby just as the city defenses are at their lowest point, then I capture the city. I especially like ships once I get submarines when the AI doesn't have them yet, especially with the new Wolfpack promition from BNW, which essentially means you click on another ship and that ship will be gone. Combine that with playing England and having the Great Lighthouse, and you get super-mobile ship killers.  That said, which ships can actually see (and thus attack) submarines?
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 19:34
|
|
|
Hollow Talk posted:That said, which ships can actually see (and thus attack) submarines? Any unit can see them if they’re in an adjacent hex. Destroyers, submarines, nuclear submarines, and missile cruisers can see submarines in their full vision radius. Once revealed, a submarine can be attacked even by units that can’t see it themselves, e.g. battleships.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 20:00
|
|
|
Submarines are also vulnerable to any unit once they're spotted. You can therefore kill a submarine with artillery 
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 20:07
|
|
|
Platystemon posted:Any unit can see them if they’re in an adjacent hex. Gort posted:Submarines are also vulnerable to any unit once they're spotted. You can therefore kill a submarine with artillery  That actually explains a lot about submarines lost in the past!
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 20:50
|
|
|
Gort posted:Submarines are also vulnerable to any unit once they're spotted. You can therefore kill a submarine with artillery
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 21:01
|
|
|
Can someone help me out with a build order for emperor? just getting my rear end kicked. What I tried about 4 times last night was: techs: pottery-> library -> worker techs -> calendar for the philosophy slingshot build: scout, some worker, granary as soon as available, finish worker, great library I should probably just give up on the GL, because even with a wide open area around me it all gets settled up around turn 70 or so and that is too small an army. Can someone post a better way to do it? Maybe something like: scout, worker, granary, bowman, bowman, settler, worker, settler ?
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 22:59
|
|
|
If you're going for a GL slingshot then it literally needs to be queued up the moment Writing finishes. Otherwise, Scouts->(insert Shrine if necessary)->Granary+Worker is a must, throw in a monument somewhere if you're not going tradition or you don't find culture ruins quickly enough. As for tech path, pottery->whatever worker techs you need for your capital->writing is a good start. The rest depends on what stretegy you're gunning for, what the land around you looks like, and what civ you're playing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 23:25
|
|
|
Super Jay Mann posted:If you're going for a GL slingshot then it literally needs to be queued up the moment Writing finishes. Thanks! For clarity though, I DID get the GL every time but then I had no army/settlers and everyone had already settled/built armies, then I would get attacked and killed (if I had settled one extra city, hi ghengis) or just not be able to settle anywhere decent.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2014 23:58
|
|
|
Just give up on the Great Library, man. It's not worth it, since you have to dedicate a ton of your capital's productive turns to it, turns that could be spent on a granary and archers and so on. And getting Philosophy early isn't really that helpful either.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 01:35
|
|
|
Gort posted:Submarines are also vulnerable to any unit once they're spotted. You can therefore kill a submarine with artillery After some artic hunt for red october poo poo today I also realized how subs work in ice. You have to be in the same contiguous ice patch as your target sub in order to hit it. This means that single tile ice patches make your sub invulnerable to all attack. Combine this with logistics and you get invincible, dual attack subs. Red october indeed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 01:53
|
|
|
I doubt it's possible yet to make an AI this complex, but I realized I want Cold Wars in Civ6. Sufficiently powerful nations or blocs and the only way you can fight without the both of you being utterly destroyed is with spies and ideological pressure. It could even have a sort of "diplomatic space race" where you research policies and whatever and whichever faction wins completely destablizes their enemies.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 02:23
|
|
|
The White Dragon posted:I doubt it's possible yet to make an AI this complex, but I realized I want Cold Wars in Civ6. Sufficiently powerful nations or blocs and the only way you can fight without the both of you being utterly destroyed is with spies and ideological pressure. It could even have a sort of "diplomatic space race" where you research policies and whatever and whichever faction wins completely destablizes their enemies. Pretty sure the closest we have to this is the cultural or diplomatic victory anyway.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 02:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 10:03 |
|
|
TooMuchAbstraction posted:Just give up on the Great Library, man. It's not worth it, since you have to dedicate a ton of your capital's productive turns to it, turns that could be spent on a granary and archers and so on. And getting Philosophy early isn't really that helpful either. Agreed. You're devoting a ton of your early game to getting to the National College ASAP. However, the tech will still be there if it takes you another 30 turns to get the National College up and running, while the good city sites may well not be. Plus between spies and bonus beakers from trade, there are rubber bands to help you catch up early on - you'll still overtake everyone around Education or so since you'll have the good social polices for science and they won't. Not to mention that you're gambling that nobody else in the game is trying the exact same tactic as you are. That's the flaw with any strategy involving wonders - someone might beat you to it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 02:26
|
|