|
The White Dragon posted:I doubt it's possible yet to make an AI this complex, but I realized I want Cold Wars in Civ6. Sufficiently powerful nations or blocs and the only way you can fight without the both of you being utterly destroyed is with spies and ideological pressure. It could even have a sort of "diplomatic space race" where you research policies and whatever and whichever faction wins completely destablizes their enemies. What I want is to be able to pseudo-puppet city-states and goad them into wars with other city-states (and then dedicate my entire industrial capacity to giving them units). And likewise, if a city-state gets into a war with one that I've pledged to protect, then I want to be able to do a ton of indirect support for "my" city-state without officially getting involved. Wars by proxy, in other words.
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 02:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 10:37 |
|
|
The White Dragon posted:I doubt it's possible yet to make an AI this complex, but I realized I want Cold Wars in Civ6. Sufficiently powerful nations or blocs and the only way you can fight without the both of you being utterly destroyed is with spies and ideological pressure. It could even have a sort of "diplomatic space race" where you research policies and whatever and whichever faction wins completely destablizes their enemies. It'd be pretty hard to get an AI good enough to be able to threaten you, but I do know that late-game wars are such a hassle that I try to avoid them at all costs anyways.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 02:27
|
|
|
Slim Jim Pickens posted:It'd be pretty hard to get an AI good enough to be able to threaten you, but I do know that late-game wars are such a hassle that I try to avoid them at all costs anyways. Well, I'm a huge alternative history nerd, so I generally keep a running idea of what the grand strategic decisions I'm making would look like from a Citizen's-Eye View. Once I'm in the Industrialization ballpark, I generally have a strong enough army that even the two next-strongest civs would think twice before attacking me. It's also when I tend to start buying CS allies out from under other civs, and being a serious twat in the World Congress. As a result, I always imagine that as the beginning of a centuries-long cold war which only ends if I eventually decide to invade someone. Bonus headcanon-roleplay points if my traditional enemies opt for different ideologies and I manage to manipulate the minor powers into taking mine.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 02:49
|
|
|
LonsomeSon posted:Bonus headcanon-roleplay points if my traditional enemies opt for different ideologies and I manage to manipulate the minor powers into taking mine. I realize how silly it is to do this kind of stuff, but I love headcanon-roleplay. My go-to is the Medieval Americans screaming about the end of days because those satanists across the pond have created moving stars with their infernal thunder magic.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 03:05
|
|
|
How do you go straight from Scout to Granary if Pottery takes 9 turns? A Scout takes 6-7 turns, and the only other worthwhile thing to get in the meantime is the Monument, which ideally you shouldn't build if you're going Tradition.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 03:39
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:How do you go straight from Scout to Granary if Pottery takes 9 turns? A Scout takes 6-7 turns, and the only other worthwhile thing to get in the meantime is the Monument, which ideally you shouldn't build if you're going Tradition. Don't you keep production points for 50 turns or something? I spend the extra hammers on a worker. LonsomeSon posted:Well, I'm a huge alternative history nerd, so I generally keep a running idea of what the grand strategic decisions I'm making would look like from a Citizen's-Eye View. I like doing this as well, but Cold war politicking is something that most human beings can't even understand, so I can't see a Civ game having the capacity to do it intelligently. Playing warmonger is the most fun for me, because having a military on-hand and zero concern for the dumb diplomacy means that I can actually influence the AI civs. By burning their cities. gently caress you Dido and Hiawatha, don't poo poo your rear end in a top hat cities on that stretch of desert I can't be assed to settle
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 03:53
|
|
|
Slim Jim Pickens posted:Don't you keep production points for 50 turns or something? I spend the extra hammers on a worker. ...huh? I don't know what that means. Do I somehow make more production when I create a unit? Or do you just mean that you go from scout to worker?
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 03:55
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:...huh? I don't know what that means. Do I somehow make more production when I create a unit? Or do you just mean that you go from scout to worker? more like 'save production': so you can build half a worker, build something else, and come back to the worker and build the rest of it without having to start from scratch. at a certain point (after 50 turns?) the point invested in the worker go away if you haven't finished the production of the worker by then
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 04:23
|
|
|
I seem to recall reading that that only works if you switch between building units and buildings (e.g. you can't start building a granary, then switch to building a library and keep your granary progress, but you can if you switch from a worker to a granary). I admit to not having tested this though. Also, while building a Monument is probably not the wisest thing to do if you go Tradition, you do still get a free culture building; it's just the next culture building instead (the ampitheatre, IIRC). That does still mean paying rather more upkeep over the course of the game since you don't get the free building until you've unlocked the necessary tech for it, but it's not a disaster.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 05:00
|
|
|
TooMuchAbstraction posted:I seem to recall reading that that only works if you switch between building units and buildings (e.g. you can't start building a granary, then switch to building a library and keep your granary progress, but you can if you switch from a worker to a granary). I admit to not having tested this though. It works with units too, but you have to switch back to them earlier or the hammers start leaking out (ten turns for units, fifty for buildings, and either way I think they lose 1% per turn).
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 05:42
|
|
|
You guys are either nuts or play on Epic speed. I always go monument after scout unless I am skipping the scout for some reason.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 17:30
|
|
|
Putin It In Mah rear end posted:You guys are either nuts or play on Epic speed. I always go monument after scout unless I am skipping the scout for some reason. Why? If you snag a culture ruin, skipping the Monument for something else and then grabbing it with the Tradition policy is fine - you even get the extra +3 from the Tradition opener that is technically better than a Monument in the meantime. I never ALWAYS do anything because there are too many variables involved.  EDIT: for example. double Scout with Spain is perfectly defensible as a Scout > Monument alternative
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 17:48
|
|
|
I only build a monument if my city has really low initial food and I need border expansion ASAP to grab growth tiles. I'd rather pop out another unit or start on a worker otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 17:55
|
|
|
FLEXBONER posted:Why? If you snag a culture ruin, skipping the Monument for something else and then grabbing it with the Tradition policy is fine - you even get the extra +3 from the Tradition opener that is technically better than a Monument in the meantime. I never ALWAYS do anything because there are too many variables involved. There are obviously Civs where there is an exception and double scout Spain is another one, but I don't like to rely on the random chance of a ruin. If I pop a culture ruin before I start my monument, then sure, I'll skip, but otherwise it delays landed elite by 10-12 turns. That will roughly halve the benefit you get from it, unless you delay your Settler. All you really end up saving is 3 or so turns on your worker/granary depending on your spawn. Like I said, there are cases where that is warranted, but as a rule I don't count on the ruin.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 18:24
|
|
|
Another thing I've done a few times if I really want an early pantheon is Scout > start Monument > switch to Shrine once Pottery pops > finish Monument
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 18:48
|
|
|
Getting through Tradition a few turns faster just isn’t worth it for me. It can chip in a few hammers on the National College or give me extra bombardment damage to defend in an early war, but mostly it just means more policies wasted in trees that are not Rationalism between finishing Tradition and entering the Renaissance.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 19:33
|
|
|
Is there anything worse than getting the perfect Venice start, coastal with lots of useful resources, culture ruins popped pre-t5, etc and then realizing 15 turns in that your 'ocean' is just an oversized lake?
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 19:34
|
|
|
Super Jay Mann posted:Is there anything worse than getting the perfect Venice start, coastal with lots of useful resources, culture ruins popped pre-t5, etc and then realizing 15 turns in that your 'ocean' is just an oversized lake? Well, you've still got the awesome capitol territory! Just regard it as a special Venice Challenge Mode.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 19:36
|
|
|
Super Jay Mann posted:Is there anything worse than getting the perfect Venice start, coastal with lots of useful resources, culture ruins popped pre-t5, etc and then realizing 15 turns in that your 'ocean' is just an oversized lake? Yeah, that happens more often than I'd like. Just restart and never look back.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 19:39
|
|
|
Reminder that there's a GMR game being set up with just one more open slot - here's an invite if you're interested (and another one in case some jackass breaks the first) http://multiplayerrobot.com/Game/Join/9664?token=f5010047-b1ff-4041-82b0-7ebc2773db03 http://multiplayerrobot.com/Game/Join/9664?token=247013b7-eed9-40b9-9af4-f8bb23897626 If someone beats you to it but you're still interested, don't worry, I'll set up another in short order and post yet more invite links. Edit: here is the Steam group topic if you want to know more: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/goonciv/discussions/0/540732888809763839/?tscn=1394301927
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 19:43
|
|
|
Super Jay Mann posted:Is there anything worse than getting the perfect Venice start, coastal with lots of useful resources, culture ruins popped pre-t5, etc and then realizing 15 turns in that your 'ocean' is just an oversized lake? It's really not that bad - you'll be going Commerce anyway which closes the gap of caravans versus trade ships, and in any case you can just use another city as your sea trade hub. Caravans are also a lot easier to keep safe than trade ships.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2014 20:51
|
|
|
Sometime /r/civ annoys the poo poo out of me. http://imgur.com/a/CbJL0 Phoenician mod civ. UA: 5GPT for every science exported in a trade route UU (Bireme): Trireme replacement. Allows embarked units that start the turn on the same tile equivalent movement. Gains Great Merchant GPP from combat. UU (Phoenician Merchant): Replaces great merchant. Can establish a trade outpost in CS to grant 1 copy (2 copies the first time you use it) of Tyrian dyes, a unique luxury resource that can be traded normally. This is one of the most OP civs I've ever seen, but since I guess nearly everyone on /r/civ sucks at science, it's being hailed as balanced and even weaker at high difficulty. Jesus christ, you have Portugal's feitoria, which is not as good as the merchants bonus, the Nau is not as good as the bireme (whose bonus carries over), and the UA is basically equivalent to having twice as many trade routes since it generates so much gold. It's like Venice with none of the drawbacks. But because there's no direct buff to science, it's "weak" and "difficult to implement". Christ.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2014 15:03
|
|
|
dayman posted:Sometime /r/civ annoys the poo poo out of me. At first I was going to say you're overreacting and this falls short of top tier Firaxis civs: I'd take the feitoria over the merchant any day (it consumes the merchant, which is the shittiest GP and detracts from scientist/engineer generation, and I'd prefer resource variety anyhow), the bireme is a neat but not especially powerful concept, and while the UA is balls out powerful it would be difficult to get any real use out of it on higher difficulties until you're in the home stretch--if you're staying remotely competitive in tech you're probably spending many of your slots on internal food routes, and the best cash routes are probably going to be with the tech leaders so if you try to maximize your beaker exports you're already sacrificing a lot of gold and beakers. Strong, probably overpowered, but not broken. Then I saw that you get the +5GPT for every beaker exported on other players' trade routes to you too  Yeah, that's just flat out retarded.EDIT: Also what is up with the pointless and idiotic popup on the merchant's ability? What possible use is the "never" option? the holy poopacy fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Mar 10, 2014 |
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2014 15:38
|
|
|
dayman posted:Sometime /r/civ annoys the poo poo out of me. Maybe it's just me instantly thinking the worst of Reddit, but this was my immediate association, especially given the subtitle Hiram I is the leader of Phoenicia. Not much to say about him other than "Profit". 
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2014 15:54
|
|
|
Gabriel Pope posted:At first I was going to say you're overreacting and this falls short of top tier Firaxis civs: I'd take the feitoria over the merchant any day (it consumes the merchant, which is the shittiest GP and detracts from scientist/engineer generation, and I'd prefer resource variety anyhow), the bireme is a neat but not especially powerful concept, and while the UA is balls out powerful it would be difficult to get any real use out of it on higher difficulties until you're in the home stretch--if you're staying remotely competitive in tech you're probably spending many of your slots on internal food routes, and the best cash routes are probably going to be with the tech leaders so if you try to maximize your beaker exports you're already sacrificing a lot of gold and beakers. Strong, probably overpowered, but not broken. In most of my games, I'm stretching for techs. That means that you can be behind in tech, often by a lot and still reap the benefits of this UA. I'm playing an immortal game as Mongolia right now. Stranded in North America, I have not conquered any civs. It's 1500, I'm last place in science, but I've discovered 6 more techs than the lowest three civs because I'm stretching for radio. Hello, extra 15GPT per trade route I'm pushing out. This is a civ that has zero benefits outside of military, and I'm still gonna be reeling in gold if I were Phoenicia even if the bonus was just for trade routes you establish. The worst thing about reddit is that often people wade into threads where they're uninformed or inexperienced so they naturally glom onto the highest rated comment and at no point let critical thinking impinge upon their reaching a conclusion.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2014 16:09
|
|
|
dayman posted:In most of my games, I'm stretching for techs. That means that you can be behind in tech, often by a lot and still reap the benefits of this UA. I'm playing an immortal game as Mongolia right now. Stranded in North America, I have not conquered any civs. It's 1500, I'm last place in science, but I've discovered 6 more techs than the lowest three civs because I'm stretching for radio. Hello, extra 15GPT per trade route I'm pushing out. This is a civ that has zero benefits outside of military, and I'm still gonna be reeling in gold if I were Phoenicia even if the bonus was just for trade routes you establish. That seems kind of like a best-case scenario; on Immortal this is basically how things usually shake out, but for comparison I have a save right now from 1440AD that's a few turns off from Electricity and the most techs I have over anyone else is 4 techs over William's lovely rump state Netherlands after he lost everything but his capital. Moreover, his capital is landlocked (and smaller and poorer than other capitals) and his newly founded coastal cities are poo poo, so I'd still hypothetically be making more money (and a few extra beakers) by sending cargo ships to more successful civs where I only have 1-2 unique techs and am just getting +5 GPT. Even in your example your net benefit is probably not much higher than +5 GPT per route, since you're still sacrificing more lucrative routes with bigger and richer civs. That's powerful, but nowhere near Venice. On the other hand, in my example even though my cities are not very accessible or attractive I'm still getting 3 caravans from William exporting 2 beakers each, which would be +30GPT total. That's more than I could get if I devoted all my trade routes to external trade, and I'm getting it all for free, without any sacrifices or hard decisions. And that's in a really bad case scenario.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2014 16:55
|
|
|
Five gold per leaked beaker might work on Emperor, but it would be obscenely broken on Deity. Four leaked beakers per turn per trade route is quite normal for Deity. Say you have three such trade routes. Suddenly, you’re making sixty gold per turn from nowhere. You can buy settlers, workers, libraries, archers, anything you want with that kind of money, and it just snowballs from there. Even in the mid game, five trade routes with one beaker each way is fifty gold per turn. It’s not Venice, but it’s nothing to sneeze at.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2014 22:38
|
|
|
Platystemon posted:Five gold per leaked beaker might work on Emperor, but it would be obscenely broken on Deity. It only applies to the beakers that you send to other civs, so you're probably getting nothing most of the time in the early game deity and 25gpt in the midgame example (but if you're exporting 5 routes in the midgame you're probably not feeding your cities much, so there's a tradeoff.) If it applied to beakers both way it would be just silly broken regardless of trade route ownership (in the industrial era immortal examples we were talking about, you'll often see ~3 beakers each way which would be +30 gold per trade route, not to mention the obvious early game vs. deity example you cited.)
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2014 22:51
|
|
|
I misinterpreted you here:Gabriel Pope posted:Then I saw that you get the +5GPT for every beaker exported on other players' trade routes to you too You can see how that could be taken as “beakers exported to you”, not “beakers exported by you, via another civ’s caravan”.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2014 22:59
|
|
|
Platystemon posted:I misinterpreted you here: Yeah, that was confusing. I see this being a pretty bad Civ on high difficulties. Good Civs have early bonuses and it can take forever until you're actually leaking beakers to other civs on high difficulties. It's overpowered on king sure, but then again, so are walls.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2014 23:59
|
|
|
I don't think that Civ is better or worse balanced than your average Firaxis Civ (iow pretty poorly balanced), but this is still an impressive level of effort and polish for a fanmade Civ.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2014 00:07
|
|
|
It's really kind of unremarkable unless you've never browsed the workshop and seen all the patriotic Eastern European and Confederate States of America civs with inane bonuses it would be impossible to lose with.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2014 00:12
|
|
|
On one level I like playing with overpowered unbalanced mod civs just to see how unbalanced they can actually get. It can be fun playing with interesting, novel mechanics even if they also take away any chance of losing. Nevertheless, some of them are just so strong that it wraps all the way from fun to boring.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2014 00:16
|
|
|
Bashez posted:Yeah, that was confusing. I can't speak for Deity since it's essentially another game altogether, but on Immortal it's not hard to be leaking 1 beaker to a lot of civs fairly early in the game since you'll be teching deep while the AI techs broad. The fact that it applies to all the random caravans other civs tend to send to you early on when there aren't many caravan targets means you can easily get a sizable gold boost for the early-midgame.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2014 00:20
|
|
|
Antares posted:It's really kind of unremarkable unless you've never browsed the workshop and seen all the patriotic Eastern European and Confederate States of America civs with inane bonuses it would be impossible to lose with. I had to go and check. quote:Unique Confederate items are: For comparison, riflemen are 200 hammers and 34 strength, and great war infantry are 340 hammers and 50 strength. Another mod gives them the bonus “the population creates less unhappiness”. I don’t even.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2014 01:03
|
|
|
I'd still like to play a finely-designed Inuit civ that receives some bonuses from tiles that are rarely, if ever, used; namely, snow and tundra tiles. There was an Inuit mod on the steam workshop a while back, but I found it to need a little bit more polish. I guess the challenge is that, in making a civ that works well in snow / snow tiles, you are creating a very situational civilization that will only strive in certain map types; not all maps are designed to have a good balance of snow tiles - whereas other map types (such as twisted axis) would be hilariously broken for such a civ. It would be interesting if there were some extra bonus resources located in snow and/or tundra tiles that made colonising a city up there worthwhile. I'm thinking a little bit like how modern Iceland has a lot of geothermal opportunity,
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2014 01:06
|
|
|
Gabriel Pope posted:I can't speak for Deity since it's essentially another game altogether, but on Immortal it's not hard to be leaking 1 beaker to a lot of civs fairly early in the game since you'll be teching deep while the AI techs broad. The fact that it applies to all the random caravans other civs tend to send to you early on when there aren't many caravan targets means you can easily get a sizable gold boost for the early-midgame. Yeah actually you're right, I didn't think that through very well. If it nets your beakers than it definitely wouldn't work on higher difficulties.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2014 01:47
|
|
|
Platystemon posted:I had to go and check. and here I thought they'd be getting city bonuses for flammability.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2014 02:00
|
|
|
Workers taken from other civilizations or city states have 2x tile improvement speed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2014 02:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 10:37 |
|
|
See???? They're happier over here!
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2014 02:11
|
|
