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fez_machine posted:Ron Edwards of the Forge and Sorcerer fame has a new kickstarter: How depressingly standard. That's what trying to be ~the edgiest~ gets you.
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Mar 16, 2014 01:38
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fez_machine posted:The pitch is: Why am I suddenly reminded of John Romero's pitches when he was starting up Ion Storm?
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Mar 16, 2014 01:42
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Rulebook Heavily posted:How depressingly standard. That's what trying to be ~the edgiest~ gets you. It's also completely unbelievable: quote:Brace yourself for human horror. It's a time when torture is ordinary, power is almost entirely determined by immediate ruthlessness, food and shelter are more important than money, and no one knows the first thing about hygiene, long-term agriculture, geography beyond the immediate area, or history besides vague legends. Human beings have never lived this way. The ego-trip is hilarious, though: quote:In my weird little mind, Circle of Hands is part of a larger Heartbreaker Redemption effort. I coined the term "fantasy heartbreaker" in 2002. They used to be really common: games bursting at the seams with naive ambition and vision, but hamstrung by limited assumptions. To read more about that, check out my two essays here. Circle of Hands is itself re-imagined and re-designed from my early 90s manuscript called Gray Magick. I dug it up, played it again, discovered what I was excited about, embraced it, and re-designed it to make that happen. I've changed everything, but somehow, only brought that much more of Gray Magick into the spotlight. You'll see this yourself because the original manuscript is scanned into the book, and some of the best stuff was already in there.  Donate $25 today!
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Mar 16, 2014 01:43
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God I hate when people like him try to write historical style settings. Does he think we were loving cavemen for most of our history?
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Mar 16, 2014 01:55
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Tatum Girlparts posted:God I hate when people like him try to write historical style settings. Does he think we were loving cavemen for most of our history? It looks like he thinks we were raping cavemen for most of our history.
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Mar 16, 2014 01:59
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I know I was 
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Mar 16, 2014 01:59
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I'm descended from a long line of rapping cavemen. You wouldn't believe how much bitching about "if only Geico were around in the '90s" I have to put up with every Thanksgiving.
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Mar 16, 2014 02:07
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Tatum Girlparts posted:God I hate when people like him try to write historical style settings. Does he think we were loving cavemen for most of our history? quote:The setting is equivalent to 10th or 11th century Europe – it's not medieval, it's not feudal, and it's not chivalric. I'd say "Dark Ages" except historians don't say that anymore … screw it, the term applies. Dark Ages fantasy. There a lot of loving  in here:quote:The setting is brutal toward women. quote:Whole communities are treated as private food and sex reserves if they can't defend themselves, or if caught in a dispute, butchered and scattered by raids and reprisals. The gentry fight one another, and if you lose, you can expect to be hung from your feet and eviscerated, so you can look at your guts while you die. Or if male, castrated and kept naked on a leash in your enemy's hall; if female, given no food and raped daily until you starve. The people who fought with you died like dogs, transfixed by spears from horseback, or they fled to nearby areas, their children dying of exposure in the night as they traveled.  quote:The pole – always spoken of in exactly that way – is a sharpened and greased stake about ten feet long, inserted into a person's anus and then posted into the ground, such that the person's weight slowly impales him or her. Death by the pole can last many days in unimaginable agony. Crucifixion has nothing to do with nails, but similar to the pole, it relies on gravity. The person's arms are strapped to a framework in such a way that he or she cannot breathe effectively given the pull of his or her weight, for death by slow suffocation. Canting the frame slightly back and providing a very slim shelf to support the feet don't change the outcome but rather make it even slower.  quote:The culture is religious, but religion is not very institutionalized and more often than not is  quote:At first glance, it's a loser's creed: suffer, keep your chin up, and don't make waves. Perceiving it  Apparently this is a "naturalistic setting-based game" Edit: Rape guidelines sighted. quote:An unpleasant reality must be addressed without sugar-coating: rape is real. In a war-raid or The next paragraph goes on to explain that people don't like rape, they're just aware of it as a reality. If somebody cares about you, the offender might be punished! Gau fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 02:10
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Yea I remember when in the 11th century we were living like... Well I hate to keep repeating it but literal cavemen. This is literally describing primal, sub-human, lifestyles as if they're a part of our development as a culture. edit: I do love his "Well I'M gonna call them Dark Ages no matter what those 'historians' say" thing. Like, the point of people moving away from that term is it is actually super not accurate and mainly used to act like either Europe was the center of all advancement and thus when it was at a low period the world was, or to vastly overblow the idea of 'religion keeping science down' or whatever to act like nothing was discovered or expanded during the time. He's scoffing at people not using the term because he wants to wallow in the absolute worst, disgusting, misinterpretations of that time. sexpig by night fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 02:35
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quote:The doctrine is similar to textual Buddhim [sic]: life is grim and nothing protects you from pain, the best one can do is develop practical ethics and arrive at a heartfelt, personal decency. It is pragmatic and not particularly metaphysical, although it includes many symbolic details regarding spiritual things.  I'd actually pledge money for an  Oglaf: The Roleplaying Game Kickstarter. I'd never play it with anyone, but I'd spend my money to support such a noble endeavor.EDIT: added in the NWS tag for those of you tempted to go read Oglaf while sitting at work. DON'T. Goredema fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 02:44
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That reminds me, has anybody done a historically accurate golden age of piracy RPG?
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Mar 16, 2014 02:48
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Goredema posted:Did somebody just say SITHRAK? I'm sure most people already know what Oglaf is, but if not, it's very as evidenced by the current comic being about a "best at sex" trophy. 
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Mar 16, 2014 02:52
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Yea I remember when in the 11th century we were living like... The only sources Edwards cites are fantasy books. There's a reason for this.
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Mar 16, 2014 02:59
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Goredema posted:Did somebody just say SITHRAK? I would pledge it too, but I think my local group is just immature enough that we could play it with more giggling than awkwardness.
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Mar 16, 2014 02:59
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Tatum Girlparts posted:He's scoffing at people not using the term because he wants to wallow in the absolute worst, disgusting, misinterpretations of that time. quote:I was playtesting Circle of Hands, and Sarah's character had narrowly managed to dismount an attacking rider and slam him to the ground. "Run," her character growled; Sarah rolled Charm and beat the 12, so he did. "Charm?" she asked me, puzzled. "Yes," I said. "In this culture, effective brutality wins admiration." She went quiet. "Gets the blood pumping, doesn't it?" I asked. "Yes," she replied. "Yes, it does."
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Mar 16, 2014 03:06
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I assume he left out the detail that Sarah's one of those homeschooled kids who spent all her childhood in a basement under florescent lights, so pretty much leaving the house 'gets the blood pumping'.
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Mar 16, 2014 03:13
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Kwyndig posted:I would pledge it too, but I think my local group is just immature enough that we could play it with more giggling than awkwardness. Oglaf as a setting would never work because the sex in it is consensual. An RPG without rape is banal. I need percentile die for pregnancies! What's the hit die of a fetus, damnit!
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Mar 16, 2014 03:28
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~Loyalty~Honor~Courage~Forever~The Rangers If those sample minis in this update look familiar, that'd be because it's Steve Saunders, Warmachine sculptor.
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Mar 16, 2014 03:35
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LordAba posted:Oglaf as a setting would never work because the sex in it is consensual. An RPG without rape is banal. I need percentile die for pregnancies! What's the hit die of a fetus, damnit! Roll 50,000,000d20 to hit the egg
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Mar 16, 2014 03:35
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Rulebook Heavily posted:How depressingly standard. That's what trying to be ~the edgiest~ gets you. It is kind of amazing how many designers set out to be edgy for edgy's sake and end up with some flavour of look-at-me-everyone-I-said-rape, I-can't-think-of-anything-interesting-to-do-with-a-penis rubbish that's been done a hundred times before by other "edgy" designers. 
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Mar 16, 2014 03:41
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It looks like Ron Edwards went on a Game of Thrones binge then said "pff, lemme show you how it's really done, scrub."
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Mar 16, 2014 03:47
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There seem to be a whole lot of people in this thread who seem to be missing that this is a fantasy game. Whatever else he may be doing with this RPG, he is not saying anything about actual human history. "There is no way to throw a spear so it goes through mail as though it weren't there." Well, sure. There's also no way to raise the dead, summon demons, throw fireballs, etc.
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Mar 16, 2014 03:56
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malkav11 posted:There seem to be a whole lot of people in this thread who seem to be missing that this is a fantasy game. Whatever else he may be doing with this RPG, he is not saying anything about actual human history. "There is no way to throw a spear so it goes through mail as though it weren't there." Well, sure. There's also no way to raise the dead, summon demons, throw fireballs, etc. Except for all the parts where he says he wants it to be like actual human history, you mean.
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Mar 16, 2014 03:57
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malkav11 posted:There seem to be a whole lot of people in this thread who seem to be missing that this is a fantasy game. Whatever else he may be doing with this RPG, he is not saying anything about actual human history. "There is no way to throw a spear so it goes through mail as though it weren't there." Well, sure. There's also no way to raise the dead, summon demons, throw fireballs, etc. I think they are mostly making fun of his creepy over the top torture fetish game if that helps at all.
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Mar 16, 2014 04:01
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malkav11 posted:There seem to be a whole lot of people in this thread who seem to be missing that this is a fantasy game. Whatever else he may be doing with this RPG, he is not saying anything about actual human history. "There is no way to throw a spear so it goes through mail as though it weren't there." Well, sure. There's also no way to raise the dead, summon demons, throw fireballs, etc. loving really? This is happening now? Creepy Fantasy Rape Game posted:"The setting is equivalent to 10th or 11th century Europe – it's not medieval, it's not feudal, and it's not chivalric. I'd say "Dark Ages" except historians don't say that anymore … screw it, the term applies. Dark Ages fantasy." Not that it loving matters, it's even more ridiculous to make a Fantasy Dark Ages Rape Game if you don't think it's calling back to any particular period of time and it just sprang full from your head like Zeus. Ron Edwards is clearly like Zeus in a lot of ways, actually.
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Mar 16, 2014 04:05
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You know how some RPGs and/or fantasy novels have things like swords that weigh 25 pounds each or knights in plate armor that have to be winched onto their horses? You know, dumb stuff that a little basic research, not even "get a master's degree in medieval nerdery" but just like "call and talk to someone who actually knows their stuff" could easily clear up? This is like that, only swap out sword weights for a fixation on rape and human misery. Ron Edwards is tellin' it like it is, only it isn't and it's dumb as hell. Even if he were billing it as "the totally HEAVY METAL game of dark grimness metal metal metal in some totally fantastical world that never was" it would A). still be dumb and B). still be way too hung up on weird rapey torture poo poo.
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Mar 16, 2014 04:10
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What's actually a lot more disturbing (instead of just offensive and juvenile) to me is the heading "Peasants and Incidental Animals" played completely straight.
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Mar 16, 2014 04:16
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Gau posted:What's actually a lot more disturbing (instead of just offensive and juvenile) to me is the heading "Peasants and Incidental Animals" played completely straight. Well that is basically what L5R does, but honestly we are drifting a bit afield of the Kickstarter topic in the KS announcement thread at this point.
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Mar 16, 2014 04:35
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Kwyndig posted:That reminds me, has anybody done a historically accurate golden age of piracy RPG? Privateers and Gentlemen and Flashing Blades were great.
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Mar 16, 2014 05:11
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Kai Tave posted:You know how some RPGs and/or fantasy novels have things like swords that weigh 25 pounds each or knights in plate armor that have to be winched onto their horses? You know, dumb stuff that a little basic research, not even "get a master's degree in medieval nerdery" but just like "call and talk to someone who actually knows their stuff" could easily clear up? So it's FATAL, then.
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Mar 16, 2014 06:32
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He should just man up and make a game about the Khmer Rouge, then. He can call it "A Holiday in Cambodia"
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Mar 16, 2014 06:44
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BryanChavez posted:Ron Edwards is clearly like Zeus in a lot of ways, actually. In the sense that he sounds like an avid rape enthusiast? The problem for me isn't the historical inaccuracy, it's that he's trying to push this "dark" and "edgy" setting with a straight face. When this sort of setting gets pushed to a certain point, you have to have a bit of a sense of humor about how ridiculous it has become for it to really work. For instance: when it works well, Warhammer 40K lore tends to be in on the joke of how unbelievably over-the-top their universe's "grimdark" poo poo seems to get slathered on, and that redeems it somewhat. Instead of going in that direction, this guy seems like he'd be the type to re-make Metalocalypse to be "twice as BRUTAL!", with all the humor cut out, and then not understand why there are only a handful of people who like his new, "better" version. Goredema fucked around with this message at 07:57 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 07:11
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Except for all the parts where he says he wants it to be like actual human history, you mean. Nobody's mentioned anything like that so far, and he certainly says nothing like that in the Kickstarter page - I'm not really interested enough to sit down and read the whole playtest document just now. ""The setting is equivalent to 10th or 11th century Europe – it's not medieval, it's not feudal, and it's not chivalric. I'd say "Dark Ages" except historians don't say that anymore … screw it, the term applies. Dark Ages fantasy." doesn't mean "the setting -is- 10th or 11th century Europe" or that he "wants it to be like actual human history". It's fine and well to call him on his decision to include gratuitous torture and rape in his setting. I'm not too sanguine about that either. But it's pretty ridiculous to take clearly deliberately fictionalized elements of his setting and assume they reflect his understanding of how the real world operated.
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Mar 16, 2014 07:17
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Goredema posted:Instead of going in that direction, this guy seems like he'd be the type to re-make Metalocalypse to be "twice as BRUTAL!", with all the humor cut out, and then not understand why there are only a handful of people who like his new, "better" version. quote:Rafael Chandler about 16 hours ago You don't say. malkav11 posted:But it's pretty ridiculous to take clearly deliberately fictionalized elements of his setting and assume they reflect his understanding of how the real world operated. Yes, I also believe that a writer's work in no way reflects their worldview or ideologies. I mean, have you read Heinlein? He wrote Starship Troopers AND The Moon is a Harsh Mistress!
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Mar 16, 2014 07:21
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malkav11 posted:Nobody's mentioned anything like that so far, and he certainly says nothing like that in the Kickstarter page - I'm not really interested enough to sit down and read the whole playtest document just now. So you're not going to read the thing where he outright says it, but you are going to take the time to tell us that we're being unfair for criticizing it anyway. This did not strike you as a dumb thing to do.
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Mar 16, 2014 07:22
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quote:But it's pretty ridiculous to take clearly deliberately fictionalized elements of his setting and assume they reflect his understanding of how the real world operated. Sorry, but how else are we going to read "The setting is equivalent to 10th or 11th century Europe"? The technology, culture, and civilization he describes is nothing like 10th century Europe. What else would he be trying to make equivalent? (I mean, obviously magic in Europe at the time was much different, focused on hard-to-find reagents and per-cast memorization). Reading it a bit, it's hard not to think he's just really off base with history - his world corresponds far too well with popular misconceptions about the "dark ages". quote:I'm not really interested enough to sit down and read the whole playtest document just now Yeah don't! It's uniformly horrible, and people have been posting mostly just the very offensive bits, rather than the more sadly embarrassing stuff (eg. sex dolls and love demons and such). VVV: I think you just haven't read enough to see it. He spends time in a few places I saw talking about how his game relates to history (on Earth), and sometimes dispelling people's misconceptions about, again, what Europe (and thus his game world) were REALLY like. jmzero fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 07:30
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jmzero posted:Sorry, but how else are we going to read "The setting is equivalent to 10th or 11th century Europe"? The technology, culture, and civilization he describes is nothing like 10th century Europe. What else would he be trying to make equivalent? (I mean, obviously magic in Europe at the time was much different, focused on hard-to-find reagents and per-cast memorization). I'd assume he was trying to distinguish it from all the fantasy based very very loosely on medieval or renaissance era Europe, myself. I mean, there's a lot of poo poo in, say, D&D that's nothing like real history of any era whatsoever, but clearly someone's idea of medieval Europe was part of the mix somewhere. As far as I could tell from his pitch, he's talking about a fictional world of that sort, filled with stuff he thinks makes a compelling, "consequential" and brutal setting where PCs are hard-bitten badasses using dangerous magic. Not making claims that this was how the Dark Ages were in Europe, not suggesting that this is how weapons and armor actually operate, etc. That leads to the sort of thing that's been quoted is the damning part, not how far off a fictional setting may be from real history.
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Mar 16, 2014 07:53
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Chhhrrrriiiiiist.quote:The setting is equivalent to 10th or 11th century Europe – it's not medieval, it's not feudal, and it's not chivalric. I'd say "Dark Ages" except historians don't say that anymore … screw it, the term applies. Dark Ages fantasy. In this he establishes clearly what he means whenever he uses the term "Dark Ages Fantasy": something equivalent to 10th or 11th century Europe. And here follows an example of what he considers equivalent, in full. quote:Force, cruelty, and misery So yes, he is clearly stating from the outset that the setting he is making is equivalent to history and draws on history. Or rather, the history he imagines took place. The phrase "private sex reserves" is just about the most hilariously awful thing I've read this year, but there you go. Next time, read the loving thing first.
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Mar 16, 2014 08:14
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This is a man who learned everything he knows about the 11th century from the Deathstalker series of movies
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Mar 16, 2014 08:33
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Hey guys, maybe just don't buy it and move on.
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Mar 16, 2014 08:49
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