p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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power botton: Nov 2, 2011

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

there is precisely one reason to use java script: you're stuck in a browser, and that is what netscape gave us

all the people hacking on nodejs need to get real jobs

this is the MPAA and RIAA being scared of the internet

# ? Mar 18, 2014 16:40

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 12:58

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

a core problem with both nodejs and actionscript/flex/air: even if you make javascript better, even if you improve the standard library or the type system, it doesn't help anything

outside your sandbox, i still have to write real js with all the lovely design choices. inside of a sandbox, why would i ever choose a dubiously "improved" js over a better tool?

# ? Mar 18, 2014 16:40

power botton: Nov 2, 2011

theres only like 3 browsers you actually need to target: safari, chrome, firefox. 2/3 use webkit. So theres like 2 browsers you need to deal with in your dev.

this is less fragmentation than the bullshit apple makes devs go through.

# ? Mar 18, 2014 16:44

double sulk: Jul 2, 2010

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

a core problem with both nodejs and actionscript/flex/air: even if you make javascript better, even if you improve the standard library or the type system, it doesn't help anything

outside your sandbox, i still have to write real js with all the lovely design choices. inside of a sandbox, why would i ever choose a dubiously "improved" js over a better tool?

if you want a real kick, you should try atom out and see how hilariously sluggish it is

# ? Mar 18, 2014 16:45

power botton: Nov 2, 2011

js gets flak like every other multi paradigm open ended language. it gives you enough rope to hang yourself. it just takes better devs than hand holdy bullshit like java to do well in js, but you have much more flexibility to clearly express your ideas.

# ? Mar 18, 2014 16:45

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

test your site in the latest version of IE and then also IE8 and that's all you need to do. under no circumstances should you test for firefox cause theres no scenario where serving a firefox user web pages is good for you/your business.

# ? Mar 18, 2014 16:46

double sulk: Jul 2, 2010

power botton posted:

js gets flak like every other multi paradigm open ended language. it gives you enough rope to hang yourself. it just takes better devs than hand holdy bullshit like java to do well in js, but you have much more flexibility to clearly express your ideas.

except javascript is loving ugly and unenjoyable to try and read?

# ? Mar 18, 2014 16:48

power botton: Nov 2, 2011

ok i would like to change my previous statement:

IE11, IE8 and webkit are the only 3 browsers you need to test against

# ? Mar 18, 2014 16:48

power botton: Nov 2, 2011

ah yes experienced developer sulk please tell us more about what code is pleasant to read

# ? Mar 18, 2014 16:49

pseudorandom name: May 6, 2007

there's no scenario where serving an IE user web pages is good for your business either, because you're a co-founder in some lovely startup and neither you nor any of your co-founders have any clue what you're doing

# ? Mar 18, 2014 16:50

power botton: Nov 2, 2011

look the point is people praise apple to solving mobile fragmentation but actually web developers have adopted standards organically and actually solved fragmentation way better than a lumbering giant could

# ? Mar 18, 2014 16:51

pseudorandom name: May 6, 2007

apple solved mobile fragmentation by making every site on the internet redirect you to some itms: URL for what is essentially opt-in malware, thus eliminating any desire to browse the web on your phone

# ? Mar 18, 2014 16:53

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

pseudorandom name posted:

there's no scenario where serving an IE user web pages is good for your business either, because you're a co-founder in some lovely startup and neither you nor any of your co-founders have any clue what you're doing

this isn't anywhere close to true. clueless founders will be using chrome or failfox or slowfari cause they aren't smart enough to use IE.

if its an internal project IE8 will be the most important browser you target w/ IEs9-11 being the next most important. Then you might have to worry about some slowfari users, but you can just tell them "slowfari isn't supported" and they can deal w/ it. No one internally should be using failfox cause its full of problems and that's just extra work for you for no reason at all.

If its an external project, IE8-11 and slowfari are the most important cause that's what people who pay money for things use. failfox users will only ever pirate whatever you're doing so ignoring them or making their bad browser crash because it uses all the memory is the way to handle them.

# ? Mar 18, 2014 16:56

Dessert Rose: May 17, 2004; awoken in control of a lucid deep dream...

power botton posted:

js gets flak like every other multi paradigm open ended language. it gives you enough rope to hang yourself. it just takes better devs than hand holdy bullshit like java to do well in js, but you have much more flexibility to clearly express your ideas.

hmm yes what a great choice for a language which runs on every browser everywhere

# ? Mar 18, 2014 17:10

Dessert Rose: May 17, 2004; awoken in control of a lucid deep dream...

Shaggar posted:

this isn't anywhere close to true. clueless founders will be using chrome or failfox or slowfari cause they aren't smart enough to use IE.

if its an internal project IE8 will be the most important browser you target w/ IEs9-11 being the next most important. Then you might have to worry about some slowfari users, but you can just tell them "slowfari isn't supported" and they can deal w/ it. No one internally should be using failfox cause its full of problems and that's just extra work for you for no reason at all.

If its an external project, IE8-11 and slowfari are the most important cause that's what people who pay money for things use. failfox users will only ever pirate whatever you're doing so ignoring them or making their bad browser crash because it uses all the memory is the way to handle them.

please come up with a clever name for chrome it's breaking my immersion

# ? Mar 18, 2014 17:12

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

pseudorandom name posted:

apple solved mobile fragmentation by making every site on the internet redirect you to some itms: URL for what is essentially opt-in malware, thus eliminating any desire to browse the web on your phone

# ? Mar 18, 2014 17:21

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

javascript is almost as badly designed as php. the difference is that you can at least avoid php.

i initially thought gwt's compile-java-to-javascript schtick was incredibly gross but now i'm actually fairly convinced that it's the way forward. gwt is, like, so last tuesday though. i can never keep up with what the web dev snowflakes are crapping out this week.

# ? Mar 18, 2014 17:23

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

Dessert Rose posted:

please come up with a clever name for chrome it's breaking my immersion

chrome is the clever name because they took the turd that is webkit and polished it up. its shiny but still a turd.

# ? Mar 18, 2014 18:00

double sulk: Jul 2, 2010

Shaggar posted:

chrome is the clever name because they took the turd that is webkit and polished it up. its shiny but still a turd.

# ? Mar 18, 2014 18:01

Janitor Prime: Jan 22, 2004; PC LOAD LETTER

What da fuck does that mean; Fun Shoe

Shaggar posted:

chrome is the clever name because they took the turd that is webkit and polished it up. its shiny but still a turd.

:iamafag:

# ? Mar 18, 2014 18:04

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

Mr Dog posted:

javascript is almost as badly designed as php. the difference is that you can at least avoid php.

i initially thought gwt's compile-java-to-javascript schtick was incredibly gross but now i'm actually fairly convinced that it's the way forward. gwt is, like, so last tuesday though. i can never keep up with what the web dev snowflakes are crapping out this week.

gwt has been abandoned for like 5 years. the entire premise of html "applications" was doa along w/ gwt. when people talk about web "applications" today they generally mean html w/ almost no css that gets formatted by millions of lines of horrific javascript.

but now, thanks to the ultimate in ironing, marketing of all places is big on getting rid of all that cruft and switching to css for formatting. this makes web "developers" angry cause it pretty much eliminates the need for javascript. so the right way to do things today is have your marketing guy work with a design team to figure out the markup and css and then they hand it over to you so you can stuff it full of razor and knockout and that's it. if theres browser style problems you send it off to the design guy and he tweaks the css to make it work.

its actually a really great way to do things cause if you test it in IE8 and theres functionality that doesn't work it means you are abusing javascript and you hosed up and your site is bad. obv css might be a little weird in ie8 cause it doesn't support certain things, but hacking them in w/ javascript is also wrong. just use css that makes the site look as best as possible in ie8

Shaggar fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Mar 18, 2014

# ? Mar 18, 2014 18:15

Nomnom Cookie: Aug 30, 2009

ie8 supports css 2.1 so if ur css is broken it means you've been drinking too much koolaid

# ? Mar 18, 2014 18:20

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

Shaggar posted:

gwt has been abandoned for like 5 years. the entire premise of html "applications" was doa along w/ gwt. when people talk about web "applications" today they generally mean html w/ almost no css that gets formatted by millions of lines of horrific javascript.

but now, thanks to the ultimate in ironing, marketing of all places is big on getting rid of all that cruft and switching to css for formatting. this makes web "developers" angry cause it pretty much eliminates the need for javascript. so the right way to do things today is have your marketing guy work with a design team to figure out the markup and css and then they hand it over to you so you can stuff it full of razor and knockout and that's it. if theres browser style problems you send it off to the design guy and he tweaks the css to make it work.

its actually a really great way to do things cause if you test it in IE8 and theres functionality that doesn't work it means you are abusing javascript and you hosed up and your site is bad. obv css might be a little weird in ie8 cause it doesn't support certain things, but hacking them in w/ javascript is also wrong. just use css that makes the site look as best as possible in ie8

on what planet can marketing even spell css let alone have opinions on it

# ? Mar 18, 2014 18:22

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

we had a recent project where ie8 worked fine but the css was a little off cause there was some css3 thing that it couldn't do that made dropdowns look slightly different or something. it was something the user would never notice unless they looked at it in both browsers which is perfectly acceptable.

# ? Mar 18, 2014 18:23

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

Mr Dog posted:

on what planet can marketing even spell css let alone have opinions on it

this planet. earth.

# ? Mar 18, 2014 18:25

Gazpacho: Jun 18, 2004; by Fluffdaddy; Slippery Tilde

MononcQc posted:

Why would anybody use a map function if it had to be used with only a restricted set of 'collection mapping functions'?

If you're offering to map only with a restricted set of functions only, compared to the usual 'send in any transformation that takes one argument', just provide that restricted set of functions and don't add in map at all.

The weird thing here is that Javascript's map functions somehow decided that the index of the list/array at which it is right now is passed in as a hidden second argument (which doesn't appear in functions with a single argument), but passes that value as the radix here.

The problem isn't nearly as much map's implementation as it is JS being able to add in or remove arguments to function calls without ever saying a thing, which means that a common map with a 1-argument function called with a function that has a default 2-nd argument 99% of the time suddenly gets called with a previously unexpected new 2nd argument that breaks what people thought would happen.

It's just bad design.

MononcQc posted:

No you see javascript is sane because
JavaScript code:
function add(a) {
    return a+a;
}

> add(2, 5);
4
> add(2,5,6,4,3)
4
Hmmm... OH wait!
JavaScript code:
function add(a,b) {
    if (typeof b == 'undefined&#63275;') {
        b = 0;
    }
    return a+a+b;
}

> add(2,3)
7
> add(2)
4
Finally my sane semantics! You see, the argument list is just a list of arguments you don't care about. So I'm gonna put them into that 'arguments' array instead, and make that implicit to all the functions as a variable to avoid all confusion
JavaScript code:
function add() {
    return arguments;
}

> add(2)
[2]
> add(2,3)
[2,3]
Hm, yes, Javascript, what an elegant language.

bravo, good parody :golfclap:

# ? Mar 18, 2014 18:42

Gazpacho: Jun 18, 2004; by Fluffdaddy; Slippery Tilde

in EE if you just blunder ahead without verifying your assumptions you can very quickly fry the hardware, or yourself

# ? Mar 18, 2014 18:56

Blotto Skorzany: Nov 7, 2008; He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip

it;s me i fry my coworkers hardware woohoo

# ? Mar 18, 2014 18:59

Nomnom Cookie: Aug 30, 2009

Gazpacho posted:

in EE if you just blunder ahead without verifying your assumptions you can very quickly fry the hardware, or yourself

one time i fried a chip by getting power and ground backwards

# ? Mar 18, 2014 19:56

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

Kevin Mitnick P.E. posted:

one time i fried a chip by getting power and ground backwards

# ? Mar 18, 2014 20:18

Maluco Marinero: Jan 18, 2001; Damn that's a
fine elephant.

lotta whinging bout js itt

maybe it's stockholm but it doesn't drive me too crazy anymore, it's just the sandbox I have to play in because I'm making single page web apps. The fact that I can run indexedDb/webSQL on pretty much any modern browser is pretty cool, fragmentation ain't as bad as it sounds any more. Also, I'm starting to use typescript more as well so I'm getting a lot more of, if it compiles, it probably works as you expected it to. Add in contracts for all the libraries you use from DefinitelyTyped, choose better libraries, and it's not as painful an experience as it used to be.

Don't do node back ends though, you have a choice there.

# ? Mar 18, 2014 20:36

Luigi Thirty: Apr 30, 2006; Emergency confection port.

Maluco Marinero posted:

maybe it's stockholm

you got more stockholm than ikea

# ? Mar 18, 2014 20:38

MeruFM: Jul 27, 2010

javascript is pretty cool once you have 5 frameworks that implement foreach their own way

# ? Mar 18, 2014 20:38

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

Maluco Marinero posted:

Also, I'm starting to use typescript more as well so I'm getting a lot more of, if it compiles, it probably works as you expected it to.

lol

e: this isn't a nasty lol, it just actually made me laugh

# ? Mar 18, 2014 20:40

Maluco Marinero: Jan 18, 2001; Damn that's a
fine elephant.

MeruFM posted:

javascript is pretty cool once you have 5 frameworks that implement foreach their own way

Stop using libraries that clobber the prototypes then?

And the whole compile thing, was saying just like with a good static typed language you can rely on the compiler to pick up your bullshit. Having some of the es6 stuff in there is nice too, like nicer lambda syntax.

Got more Stockholm than IKEA but at least I can write a web app once and get it to lots of platforms. If I had a different language that's be great but I'm just a lowly dumbfuck web dev with lowly dumbfuck webdev problems

Maluco Marinero fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Mar 18, 2014

# ? Mar 18, 2014 20:49

qntm: Jun 17, 2009

MeruFM posted:

javascript is pretty cool once you have 5 frameworks that implement foreach their own way

especially since javascript arrays already have foreach

# ? Mar 18, 2014 20:51

power botton: Nov 2, 2011

seriously just use d3 and underscore and call it a day js isnt bad its just idiots overcomplicating things

# ? Mar 18, 2014 20:54

Blotto Skorzany: Nov 7, 2008; He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip

Maluco Marinero posted:

maybe it's stockholm [syndrome]

stackholm syndrome

# ? Mar 18, 2014 21:00

spongeh: Mar 22, 2009; BREADAGRAM OF PROTECTION

javascript is flawed but still extremely popular and widespread, which makes it the perfect target for nerds who can't possibly fathom why their perfect and preferred replacement isn't as widespread

this is especially true as i am a good looking rich javascript dev and girls love me

# ? Mar 18, 2014 21:06

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 12:58

Maluco Marinero: Jan 18, 2001; Damn that's a
fine elephant.

Otto Skorzeny posted:

stackholm syndrome

I see what you did there.

# ? Mar 18, 2014 21:17

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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