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Insane Totoro posted:Would Torpedo 8 really have had more of a chance flying planes they were unfamiliar with and still without fighter cover? No. IIRC the other half of the squadron did have Avengers, and got slaughtered as well. Torpedo attacks are a suicide mission. Without fighter cover doubly so.
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Mar 18, 2014 23:31
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Insane Totoro posted:Would Torpedo 8 really have had more of a chance flying planes they were unfamiliar with and still without fighter cover? Nope. There were a bunch of Avengers that took off from Midway during the battle (I forget whether they were USN or Marines) and got the poo poo utterly shot out of them in much the same way. I think one of them returned back to base. I think. It was all in all a pretty inglorious baptism by fire for the Avenger.
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Mar 18, 2014 23:31
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Insane Totoro posted:Would Torpedo 8 really have had more of a chance flying planes they were unfamiliar with and still without fighter cover? Probably not but the Devastators were so bad that more crew would have possibly survived. The TBD was a total death trap. I'd have to look it up but some TBMs were present on the island, I don't recall how many, if any, made it back. 8's major contribution to the battle was getting the fighters on the deck, allowing the dive bombers to work their magic.
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Mar 18, 2014 23:31
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TBMs might have also been able to get some hits. A couple torpedoes into one carrier and you can easily imagine a situation where the first wave of US attacks gets all four Japanese carriers and Yorktown survives. I have an inexplicable sentimental affection for CV-5 so I find this hypothetical situation pleasing.
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Mar 19, 2014 01:45
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Zorak of Michigan posted:TBMs might have also been able to get some hits. A couple torpedoes into one carrier and you can easily imagine a situation where the first wave of US attacks gets all four Japanese carriers and Yorktown survives. I have an inexplicable sentimental affection for CV-5 so I find this hypothetical situation pleasing. I doubt it. US air-launched torpedoes were basically pure poo poo at that time, suffering from some of the same problems as the sub-launched ones. Realistically the only way a TBM gets hits that a TBD doesn't in that situation is if it holds together long enough for the pilot to drive it into the side of a carrier.
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Mar 19, 2014 01:59
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FWIW, Lt. Gay goes on at great length about how irritating it was to only have a single .30 and says that with proper guns, he'd have been able to strafe refueling zeros on the deck or at least suppress the AA gunners. The TBD had one .30. TBFs eventually got 2 .50s, but it looks like the earliest TBFs only had one .30. Still, that's pretty minor in this particular case given how quickly everyone was wiped out.
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Mar 19, 2014 02:07
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Plan Z posted:Spent the last few days trying to catch up on the thread, and have something to contribute: The best part is at the end of part 1. After talking about needing the extra MG for the "angry little men": quote:Therefore .30 BROWNINGS were obtained, rumour has it at high cost (in gin), and mounted on the comds cupola. This has a dual advantage in that it solved the problem of the angry little men, and also prevented crew comds from being garrotted by signallers, with their customary homicidal tendencies towards tk men. The fury of the R. Sigs knew NO bounds as their now harmless tight wire traps were time and again swept serenely aside by the advancing tanks. Personally I cherished NO animosity towards the Sigs and contented myself with merely immobilising 3/4 of Seouls tram car service by laying claim, vi et armis, to some 200 yds of overhead wire, which I took with me for some four blocks. Fortunately for me someone preceding me had touched the same wire and blown the fuze, or I might have got summary justice. It was hanging low anyway.
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Mar 19, 2014 02:52
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DrAlexanderTobacco posted:Airpower newbie here - Isn't "bumpification" something that happens to pretty much all military aircraft? They start out nice and sleek, and over time get ugly bumps added due to cramming more and more stuff in? Usually what happens is that new optics, sensors, radar, weapons, etc. are added and most aircraft are designed to be pretty packed to begin with. The Tomcat/BUFF are a good examples of starting out with a nice smooth pointed noses and then getting unsightly moles on their chins. The F-16 managed to avoid unsightly warts by just putting everything on pylons, but the latest version got fat. The 109 is probably the penultimate example of WWII bumpification with blisters being added on top of the fuselage right in front of the cockpit to accommodate two larger cannons, bumps in the wings to accommodate larger landing gear tires and additional guns, and little bulges on the side of the nose to make room for parts of the bigger engines that were starting to poke out. Some pilots even managed to get gunpods added to their ships for use against ground targets and armoured IL-2s.
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Mar 19, 2014 03:43
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Dead Reckoning posted:I was down in Florida recently, and I visited the Hurlburt Commando Airpark. I know most of these are run of the mill iron, but aren't one or two of those actual historically significant airframes? I want to say that one was the actual airframe someone was flying in the action for which they were awarded a Medal of Honor or Air Force Cross, but that might be faulty memory. Burning Beard posted:8's major contribution to the battle was getting the fighters on the deck, allowing the dive bombers to work their magic. That's more than a bit of a myth...recommend you (and everyone in the thread, honestly) read Shattered Sword. The semi-abbreviated version is that there were multiple torpedo attacks between the three USN torpedo squadrons (plus the VT-8 TBF det out of Midway) and the USAAF B-26s spread over the course of 3+ hours the morning of the 4th. VT-8's attack took place nearly an hour before the semi-coordinated strike by CVW-3 off of the Yorktown (VT-3 on the deck with VB-3 above and Fighting 3 escorting), with the other strikes (VT-6 and the Midway force of VT-8's TBF Det and the B-26s) occurring earlier than that. Incidentally, CVW-3's strike was the only coordinated strike by an Air Wing on the 4th; this was due to a tactic known as a running rendezvous, where the slower torpedo bombers would launch first, followed by the slightly faster dive bombers, and then lastly the fighters. The idea is that instead of everyone flying in circles over the carrier and then flying off in one big gaggle once all planes are airborne, each squadron would strike out once airborne and with proper timing all of them would stack on top of each other just short of hitting the enemy fleet, allowing for a coordinated attack. The fact that McClusky's group of Scouting and Bombing 6 off the Big E happened to arrive at the same time as CVW-3 was just good luck, no coordination there. The bottom line is that while a case can be made that the sporadic torpedo attacks of the morning made in the hours prior to the dive bombing attacks (including VT-8's) served to scatter the Striking Force's formation and possibly distract the Japanese CAP, a statement closer to the truth would be that VT-3's (escorted) strike served to occupy the CAP while VB-3 made a coordinated dive bombing attack. (As previously stated, VB-6 and VS-6 being on the scene at the same time was just good luck). Furthermore, the Japanese CAP's focus on VT-3 was compounded by their lack of discipline and poor tactics. Finally, while the idea that the Japanese decks were full of rearming/refueling aircraft, POL, and munitions right in the middle of the SBD attack is a myth, what the sporadic torpedo attacks DID most definitely do is keep the carriers off balance and remove their ability to effectively turn aircraft/launch a coordinated strike against the US carriers, because they were too busy launching/recovering CAP fighters, recovering the original Midway strike, or maneuvering to avoid the sporadic torpedo strikes. So while the torpedo strikes did play a (largely unintentional and counter to established doctrine) role in enabling the American victory, the idea that "torpedo strikes-->draw Zeros to low altitude-->SBDs blow the poo poo out of the Striking Force-->victory" is an overly simplistic myth. One last data point regarding USN dive bombers at Midway...when the SBDs took out the Hiryu on the evening of the 4th, they only suffered 3 losses out of 41 aircraft, despite conducting the strike unescorted and being harassed by Zeros before (i.e., at altitude), during, and after their dives. The SBD's capabilities (specifically its dive brake design) and dive bombing as a tactic as employed by the USN was just that good. Also yeah, a det from VT-8 got tasked to stay behind in the States to pick up their first TBFs. They arrived in Pearl Harbor the day the Hornet sailed, so flew to Midway and operated out of there during the battle. 5 of the 6 were shot down and the sixth was completely shot to hell, barely making it back with over a hundred bullet holes and 1 KIA/2 WIA out of a crew of three. If you haven't read A Dawn Like Thunder, you should. Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL_2saZlNjQ There was a version of this video floating around that substituted Moby's "God Moving Over the Face of the Waters" (the closing music from Heat) for the soundtrack...I rather preferred that one but unfortunately it got pulled for copyright infringement. If there is only one plane left to make a final run-in, I want that man to go in and get a hit.
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Mar 19, 2014 06:29
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iyaayas01 posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL_2saZlNjQ http://youtubedoubler.com/?video1=dL_2saZlNjQ&start1=0&video2=3tI1pu5rfZw&start2=0&authorName=
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Mar 19, 2014 07:39
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iyaayas01 posted:I know most of these are run of the mill iron, but aren't one or two of those actual historically significant airframes? I want to say that one was the actual airframe someone was flying in the action for which they were awarded a Medal of Honor or Air Force Cross, but that might be faulty memory. Shattered Sword is great, spends a lot of time using quality sources to debunk myths/propaganda, and gives a very detailed account of the battle. As far as the very pervasive myth about everyone being on the deck ready to go when the SBDs show up, Lt. Gay, who talks about watching Zeros land and take off and how Japanese carrier ops were different on the deck than US carrier ops, makes zero mention of such an event despite saying he saw the SBD bombing runs. You'd think, in a puff piece to generate war support, that he might maybe mention that if it had happened. Of course, Gay also says that he hit a carrier with a torpedo and heard it go off, so unreliable narrators and all. I can certainly imagine how a few Zeros spread over the deck of a carrier could turn into "They were all just about to strike us with their main effort and then we bombed them, USA USA USA!" based on mistaken or hyperbolic USN pilots, though.
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Mar 19, 2014 11:06
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Zorak of Michigan posted:TBMs might have also been able to get some hits. A couple torpedoes into one carrier and you can easily imagine a situation where the first wave of US attacks gets all four Japanese carriers and Yorktown survives. I have an inexplicable sentimental affection for CV-5 so I find this hypothetical situation pleasing. You might as well imagine them as using A-6 Intruders via some time travel shenanigans because that's about as likely as lovely period torpedoes scoring hits.
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Mar 19, 2014 12:10
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:You might as well imagine them as using A-6 Intruders via some time travel shenanigans because that's about as likely as lovely period torpedoes scoring hits. That was a fun movie.
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Mar 19, 2014 13:30
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iyaayas01 posted:I know most of these are run of the mill iron, but aren't one or two of those actual historically significant airframes? I want to say that one was the actual airframe someone was flying in the action for which they were awarded a Medal of Honor or Air Force Cross, but that might be faulty memory. quote:A-1E SKYRAIDER 69-1234 EDIT: you may be thinking of the nearby AF Ordinance Museum, which also has a pretty cool airpark. Interestingly, they have the very 1st AC-130A, as well as an SR-71 and a well-traveled B-52 airframe. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 19, 2014 17:19
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BIG HEADLINE posted:They really should have held on to the OV-10. Of course, the Reapers can carry more than three Broncos ever could. Something so beautiful about planes that fly slow and low.
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Mar 19, 2014 17:24
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iyaayas01 posted:I know most of these are run of the mill iron, but aren't one or two of those actual historically significant airframes? I want to say that one was the actual airframe someone was flying in the action for which they were awarded a Medal of Honor or Air Force Cross, but that might be faulty memory. Fisher's official Medal of Honor citation reads: posted:For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty. On that date, the special forces camp at A Shau was under attack by 2,000 North Vietnamese Army regulars. Hostile troops had positioned themselves between the airstrip and the camp. Other hostile troops had surrounded the camp and were continuously raking it with automatic weapons fire from the surrounding hills. The tops of the 1,500-foot hills were obscured by an 800 foot ceiling, limiting aircraft maneuverability and forcing pilots to operate within range of hostile gun positions, which often were able to fire down on the attacking aircraft. During the battle, Maj. Fisher observed a fellow airman crash land on the battle-torn airstrip. In the belief that the downed pilot was seriously injured and in imminent danger of capture, Maj. Fisher announced his intention to land on the airstrip to effect a rescue. Although aware of the extreme danger and likely failure of such an attempt, he elected to continue. Directing his own air cover, he landed his aircraft and taxied almost the full length of the runway, which was littered with battle debris and parts of an exploded aircraft. While effecting a successful rescue of the downed pilot, heavy ground fire was observed, with 19 bullets striking his aircraft. In the face of the withering ground fire, he applied power and gained enough speed to lift-off at the overrun of the airstrip. Maj. Fisher's profound concern for his fellow airman, and at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty are in the highest traditions of the U.S. Air Force and reflect great credit upon himself and the Armed Forces of his country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Francis_Fisher Major Fisher's Skyraider; 
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Mar 19, 2014 17:31
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Outside Dawg posted:Major Fisher's Skyraider
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Mar 19, 2014 17:56
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My grandfather flew the Avenger serving on CV-14 Ticonderoga. Sadly he is no longer with us. He mentioned a few stories of riding out typhoons with swells breaking 20+ feet over the flight deck. The one he only told once that he never quite got over. During a raid on Tokyo his wing was recalled. On the way back they spotted large groups of people gathering. When you're recalled, it was SOP to drop your ordnance on any targets of opportunity if given a chance. They bombed the poo poo out of them. When he got back to base he found out the war was over, and the reason the mission was recalled was because Japan had surrendered, it was August 16.
Steeltalon fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 19, 2014 19:20
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Steeltalon posted:My grandfather flew the Avenger serving on CV-14 Ticonderoga. Sadly he is no longer with us. He mentioned a few stories of riding out typhoons with swells breaking 20+ feet over the flight deck. The one he only told once that he never quite got over. During a raid on Tokyo his wing was recalled. On the way back they spotted large groups of people gathering. When you're recalled, it was SOP to drop your ordnance on any targets of opportunity if given a chance. They bombed the poo poo out of them. When he got back to base he found out the war was over, and the reason the mission was recalled was because Japan had surrendered, it was August 16. People dying right at the end of the war always gets to me. It reminds me of the tangentially related Robert Hampton Gray, who trained at the local airport where I worked for a summer.  Serving in the British Pacific Fleet he flew Corsairs off the HMS Formidable, having already seen action in the North Atlantic.  At 8:30 on August 9th, 1945, three days after the bombing of Hiroshima and about four hours before the bombing of Nagasaki, he embarked on his last sortie. quote:At 0835 on August 9th, Hammy Gray climbed into his aircraft and prepared to lead his flight of seven Corsairs in the attack on Matsushima airfield. At the last minute, Chief Petty Officer Dick Sweet was sent to Hammy’s waiting aircraft with an urgent message that Matsushima Military Airfield had been heavily bombed earlier and was thought to be out of commission and if so he was to seek other targets of opportunity. Hammy lead his flight to Matsushima airfield, confirmed the damage and the need to attack other targets such as Japanese ships he had seen anchored in Onagawa Bay.  quote:After someone keyed their radio mike saying ‘There goes Hammy", his Second in Command, Sub. Lt. MacKinnon, took over as Flight Leader and launched two more attacks until the two flights exhausted their bombs and cannon ammunition on other targets in the bay. One hundred and fifty-eight Japanese servicemen were killed (71 on Amakusa alone). Most of the warships in the bay were sunk (this includes Ohama), destroyed or badly damaged. Japanese accounts of the battle talk of the valour demonstrated by Commonwealth pilots as they pressed home their attack. For his actions on that day, he was not only recommended for the VC, he also received the unique honor of being the only foreign soldier to be memorialized in Japan at a spot overlooking the bay. It was damaged in the 2011 Tsunami but was re-dedicated in 2012. quote:In Onagawa Bay, next to a memorial to those Japanese servicemen killed on August 9, 1945 stands the only foreign military memorial on Japanese soil - a memorial to Canada's Lt. Robert Hampton Gray which was placed by the Japanese military to honor what they saw as an extreme act of heroism. The fact that despite all the gallantry and death the war was about to be capped by a lone B-29 on the other side of Japan is just so tragic, especially since the news of the war ending reached his family in B.C. before the news of his death. All in service of a largely forgotten fleet that had already been tarred by the HMCS Uganda voting itself out of the war a few weeks previously. quote:ADMIRALTY Whitehall, 13th November 1945. 
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Mar 19, 2014 20:52
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Dead Reckoning posted:I think you're right, but unfortunately I've lost the notes I jotted down. The plaques in that park are particularly unhelpful as well. I saw more than one that basically read: I met Bernard Fisher in 99 or 00. He was (is?) a cool old guy with a leopard-skin tuxedo jacket made by his (now deceased) wife.
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Mar 20, 2014 00:32
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Dead Reckoning posted:...is in the National Museum of the US Air Force at Wright Pat. Yes, I've seen it. Got to go there when I was in the C.A.P. in junior high. Fantastic place.
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Mar 20, 2014 02:09
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Dead Reckoning posted:EDIT: you may be thinking of the nearby AF Ordinance Museum, which also has a pretty cool airpark. Interestingly, they have the very 1st AC-130A, as well as an SR-71 and a well-traveled B-52 airframe. Yeah, the Armament Museum is great (also has a Constant Peg MiG-21 and several aircraft with combat time on them, to include the BUFF and the Pave Low), but I could've sworn a couple of the airframes in Hurlburt's airpark were significant. fake edit: The Hurlburt website has a pretty good rundown on the air park. Apparently the Pave Low there took part in the Mayaguez operation and saw combat in OEF and OIF; the A-26 is an actual Counter-Invader that flew combat missions out of Nakhon Phanom; and the AC-130 saw combat in SEA (including the Mayaguez operation), Just Cause, and Desert Storm. So nothing as significant as I was thinking.
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Mar 20, 2014 05:02
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That Centurion article is great.quote:On one occasion a tk took a run at a steep hill in 2nd gear, got two thirds up and the driver missed his gear on the change down. The tk carried all before it on the way down and, deftly hurdling,a rd cut in the side of the hill, continued up the other side of the gully. It continued to behave like a yo yo until gravity prevailed. A remarkable sight. Beyond an understandable change of colour the crew were unhurt. quote:Therefore .30 BROWNINGS were obtained, rumour has it at high cost (in gin), and mounted on the comds cupola. This has a dual advantage in that it solved the problem of the angry little men, and also prevented crew comds from being garrotted by signallers, with their customary homicidal tendencies towards tk men. The fury of the R. Sigs knew NO bounds as their now harmless tight wire traps were time and again swept serenely aside by the advancing tanks. Personally I cherished NO animosity towards the Sigs and contented myself with merely immobilising 3/4 of Seouls tram car service by laying claim, vi et armis, to some 200 yds of overhead wire, which I took with me for some four blocks. Fortunately for me someone preceding me had touched the same wire and blown the fuze, or I might have got summary justice. It was hanging low anyway. 
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Mar 20, 2014 22:52
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Generation Internet posted:People dying right at the end of the war always gets to me. Thanks for posting this, there aren't a whole lot of Canadian stories in the air power thread, and this one was eye opening.
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Mar 21, 2014 02:37
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Speaking of Miday I'd love it if someone came up with an edit of the movie Midway with the love story cut out. You could call it the Loveless Cut or something.
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Mar 21, 2014 07:19
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RandomPauI posted:Speaking of Miday I'd love it if someone came up with an edit of the movie Midway with the love story cut out. You could call it the Loveless Cut or something. This but also pearl harbor.
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Mar 21, 2014 08:44
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spankmeister posted:This but also pearl harbor. It's called Tora! Tora! Tora!
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Mar 21, 2014 08:47
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That's one of my favorite movies and I've tried to make it a point to watch it every December 7th.
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Mar 21, 2014 08:50
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:It's called Tora! Tora! Tora! Also takes too long before the shooty bits start. 
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Mar 21, 2014 17:00
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take your ritalin jeez
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Mar 21, 2014 20:40
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Someone sent me this: https://medium.com/war-is-boring/715bb9297261 If poo poo were to hit the fan, surely that would get stomped incredibly hard? The chap who sent it to me is claiming it'll be fantastic because they could "Zerg rush" because they're so cheap. But, that seems ludicrous to me. Edit: He's specifically comparing it against the F-35. I'm arguing that he's comparing the wrong planes (Assuming that they would be the sole air assets) - Wouldn't the US be using F16s, F22s etc? DrAlexanderTobacco fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 23:33
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DrAlexanderTobacco posted:Someone sent me this: https://medium.com/war-is-boring/715bb9297261 Wouldn't anything that had decent radar (awacs or ground) support and the ability to fire medium+ range missiles essentially be a significant threat?
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Mar 21, 2014 23:40
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DrAlexanderTobacco posted:Someone sent me this: https://medium.com/war-is-boring/715bb9297261 30 years ago the Mig-21 was still a world class plane. Now in an era of BVR missiles and AWACS they're sort of screwed facing anything post F-16. They're maneuverable as all hell but have a tiny gas tank so there is maybe 30 minutes of flight time before they have to pull back. They can't easily stick a giant amount of missiles on them like US fighters can, the radar is hampered by their tiny nosecone space, and the missiles they can carry are about the equivalent of 1980s US inventory. The 21 is good if you're facing the Air Force of Costa Rica or Liberia but not for much else thee days.
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Mar 21, 2014 23:52
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Party Plane Jones posted:30 years ago the Mig-21 was still a world class plane. Now in an era of BVR missiles and AWACS they're sort of screwed facing anything post F-16. They're maneuverable as all hell but have a tiny gas tank so there is maybe 30 minutes of flight time before they have to pull back. They can't easily stick a giant amount of missiles on them like US fighters can, the radar is hampered by their tiny nosecone space, and the missiles they can carry are about the equivalent of 1980s US inventory. The 21 is good if you're facing the Air Force of Costa Rica or Liberia but not for much else thee days. That was the point though, new nose design for bigger radar, newer russian engines etc. No clue if that increased their fuel efficiency enough to matter, but the other points stand.
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Mar 21, 2014 23:54
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Party Plane Jones posted:30 years ago the Mig-21 was still a world class plane. Now in an era of BVR missiles and AWACS they're sort of screwed facing anything post F-16. They're maneuverable as all hell but have a tiny gas tank so there is maybe 30 minutes of flight time before they have to pull back. They can't easily stick a giant amount of missiles on them like US fighters can, the radar is hampered by their tiny nosecone space, and the missiles they can carry are about the equivalent of 1980s US inventory. The 21 is good if you're facing the Air Force of Costa Rica or Liberia but not for much else thee days. Aren't MiG-21 variants (21-93, LanceR, stuff like that) still in use as front line fighters in some countries? Granted, Eastern Europe and India may not be the standard of air forces.
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Mar 21, 2014 23:58
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Davin Valkri posted:Aren't MiG-21 variants (21-93, LanceR, stuff like that) still in use as front line fighters in some countries? Granted, Eastern Europe and India may not be the standard of air forces. Yeah, but in a lot of those countries they've been continually looking for other fighters to replace or supplement their inventory. The MiG-29 has been the replacement for the 21 in a lot of cases if they don't have access to new F-16s. In regards to the new nosecone at least, Constant Peg managed to get ahold of some of the upgraded 21s/j-7s and they found that the new nosecone diminished dogfighting (yeah, the last US gun kill was Vietnam but still) and overall maneuverability noticeably. Most of the pilots liked the older planes with the smaller nosecones because of that fact. Russian engines are Russian engines and regardless of 30 years more development for 21 engines they probably are operating under the same "fly it for 100 hours then toss it" mentality that the Russians had with their engines. If you have tons of spares that's all well and done but if you don't have a sizeable amount your planes are going to be twiddling with their thumbs up their asses.
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Mar 22, 2014 00:15
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It also doesn't detail any air-to-air radar/missile details, so I'm inclined to read into that fact. Yes, it'll die.
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Mar 22, 2014 00:37
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Party Plane Jones posted:(yeah, the last US gun kill was Vietnam but still) A10 scored a gun kill on a helicopter in gulf war 1.
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Mar 22, 2014 01:17
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Party Plane Jones posted:30 years ago the Mig-21 was still a world class plane. Now in an era of BVR missiles and AWACS they're sort of screwed facing anything post F-16. They're maneuverable as all hell but have a tiny gas tank so there is maybe 30 minutes of flight time before they have to pull back. They can't easily stick a giant amount of missiles on them like US fighters can, the radar is hampered by their tiny nosecone space, and the missiles they can carry are about the equivalent of 1980s US inventory. The 21 is good if you're facing the Air Force of Costa Rica or Liberia but not for much else thee days. jaegerx posted:A10 scored a gun kill on a helicopter in gulf war 1.
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Mar 22, 2014 01:36
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Still owns.
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Mar 22, 2014 01:59
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