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Doltos posted:How much would you guys be willing to play a Civ if domination was the only way to win? Science would affect the quality of guys you have while production would focus entirely on keeping your troops trained and fed. Culture would be a modifier to your happiness to prevent revolutions/military coups. In a way it would be more of a pain. Once you reach a point in game where you're dominant culturally or technologically, a domination win is inevitable. It then becomes a matter of slogging/nuking the planet until you collect all the capital lucky charms for the win. The most interesting domination wins are those that take place at the expense of the other play styles. A winning strategy is still going to be to turtle and leap out ahead in tech making all attempts on your capital as pathetic as 18th century musketmen attacking your machine gun nests would be in real life. edit: If there really was a domination only victory game, there would have to be modern deterrents to combat. Super heavy diplo penalties e.g. happiness penalties that prevent effective warring, later eras demanding casus belli before you're even allowed to declare war, MAD, etc. This would force civs to wage war early and often because the job would get harder as time marches on, not easier. dayman fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 19, 2014 15:34
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Doltos posted:How much would you guys be willing to play a Civ if domination was the only way to win? Science would affect the quality of guys you have while production would focus entirely on keeping your troops trained and fed. Culture would be a modifier to your happiness to prevent revolutions/military coups. I would not play the game. dayman posted:If that's the case then the Inca should be above Netherlands. With the right start they're a crazy unstoppable monster of growth. Mountains are bad tiles, you end up with a lot of dead space as the Inca. T-Hawk had the Netherlands in the best possible map/area for growth, I don't think it can be beat unless you're customizing your maps for maximum hill/mountain interactions that don't affect your cities.
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Mar 19, 2014 16:12
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Totally agree. I think the domination only victory type would need so many extra additions to make it work. I think there's a lot of material to work with when a country goes off to war. The game would need a complete remake to make domination viable. As it stands now I wish domination was a valid tactic. Having to capture capitals is annoying and it's way too easy to get ganged up on if you're an aggressor. Early aggression is dominated by city strength and archer garrisons. I wish it was viable to rush a player with 2-3 warriors to punish them for slingshotting.
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Mar 19, 2014 16:15
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Bashez posted:I would not play the game. That was implied. With a good start where mountains are arranged in a sort of checkerboard pattern, the benefit is outrageous. There is also the fringe benefit that Inca starts are among the hardest to lay siege to.
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Mar 19, 2014 16:23
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Bashez posted:Mountains are bad tiles, you end up with a lot of dead space as the Inca. I just finished a game as the Inca where I was totally dominant in population (and thus science, etc.) despite almost all of my cities being coastal cities with nearby mountains. Sure, my production output wasn't outstanding, but it wasn't terrible either and Terrace Farms are fantastic tile improvements. Having a few "dead" tiles in your city's environs is absolutely not a problem in CiV. You probably won't end up working anywhere near all the tiles you have available to you. By the time your city's population is big enough to actually work all the tiles in its area (which is a huge number of tiles!) you've probably switched many of them over to specialists.
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Mar 19, 2014 16:48
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How good is manual specialist control? I barely ever delve into that and just let my AI decide where to stick my specialists. Is there a rule of thumb?
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Mar 19, 2014 16:54
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I just finished a game as the Inca where I was totally dominant in population (and thus science, etc.) despite almost all of my cities being coastal cities with nearby mountains. Sure, my production output wasn't outstanding, but it wasn't terrible either and Terrace Farms are fantastic tile improvements. It's a problem when you end up with like 12 workable tiles. Doltos posted:How good is manual specialist control? I barely ever delve into that and just let my AI decide where to stick my specialists. Is there a rule of thumb? You can beat deity without touching it, but it helps a lot. I don't have a firm grasp on what I like to do yet with the guilds, but I used to just make sure everyone was in to science.
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Mar 19, 2014 16:59
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Doltos posted:How good is manual specialist control? I barely ever delve into that and just let my AI decide where to stick my specialists. Is there a rule of thumb? I don't know about rule of thumb, but manual specialist control is good for great person point controls and rushing great people.
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Mar 19, 2014 17:00
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Bashez posted:It's a problem when you end up with like 12 workable tiles.
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Mar 19, 2014 17:11
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Well, sure, but that's a far cry from "never settle near mountains because you can't work them". Even having half your city's territory be non-floodplain desert isn't a dealbreaker if the other half has decent stuff in it. You're using quotes.
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Mar 19, 2014 17:14
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Bashez posted:You can beat deity without touching [specialist management], but it helps a lot. LP or it didn't happen 
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Mar 19, 2014 17:43
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Putin It In Mah rear end posted:LP or it didn't happen Just max pop and it'll fill them all in anyway. You'll never get a GE though.
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Mar 19, 2014 17:48
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dayman posted:Just max pop and it'll fill them all in anyway. You'll never get a GE though. See the thing is I left mine on auto in my Ramses game and the AI put all my specialists in production for GE points. Is that because I was building a ton of world wonders?
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Mar 19, 2014 17:53
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Doltos posted:See the thing is I left mine on auto in my Ramses game and the AI put all my specialists in production for GE points. Is that because I was building a ton of world wonders? For me, in most science centric games, the specialist building order goes like; writer's guild, university, market, artist's guild, public school, workshop, bank, musician's guild, factory, stock exchange, research lab. The number of slots for GS's always matches or outnumbers those for GE's, ensuring that you will never get a GE even if all slots are filled. If you're maxing pop and get a favorable start, auto specialist control will fill in all available slots.
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Mar 19, 2014 18:00
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http://steamcommunity.com/groups/goonciv#events/1423442114252896932 Throwing up a quick game to try some things out. It'll be a bit more informal than the games on Standard pace. This should be a good opportunity if you want to try out MP but don't want to commit to a regular schedule of playing. I might tweak the map settings for this game. If I'm feeling especially rude I'll pick Shuffle 
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Mar 19, 2014 18:06
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Engineer specialists are really lovely until you get some specialist boosters, though. Like all-jungle/water cities might use an engineer out of sheer desperation but they have the base yield of unimproved hills.
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Mar 19, 2014 18:26
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Putin It In Mah rear end posted:LP or it didn't happen I don't think I did it on my Shoshone game, if I did it was minimal. I tend not to like mucking about with specials now that guilds exist because I tend to leave it unattended after I should be switching it up and screw myself. Same reason I take production focus off after I grow to 4 or 5 usually. I want to get my games done in a single sitting and I need to play fast.
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Mar 19, 2014 18:27
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I just got BNW after having Gold and G&K. Is it just me or are science victories the biggest pain in the rear end now with the new Congress system? Like, if I'm going for a Science victory and cranking out science, and getting to new eras faster than everyone else, I advance the World Congress to it's late stages very early. I will always win via Diplomatic Victory before I can complete the tech tree, because the UN World Leader voting starts before I can even start my space ship. If I choose not to farm the poo poo out of City State influence for delegates, someone else will be the world leader and I will lose the game. It's victory by diplomacy or nothing. I've played 8 games going for Science as Nebuchadnezzar II and it always happens. What am I doing wrong?
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Mar 19, 2014 20:25
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You could reduce the number of city states in the game, that should delay things long enough to make other win conditions more viable. As it stands now, science victory is more like a time victory when you don't get any of the other types before then.
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Mar 19, 2014 20:33
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Suzuki Method posted:I just got BNW after having Gold and G&K. Is it just me or are science victories the biggest pain in the rear end now with the new Congress system? If you pick Patronage, you will win a diplomatic victory because allying city states snowballs all sorts of benefits and makes it easier to get more city state allies
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Mar 19, 2014 20:40
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Suzuki Method posted:What am I doing wrong? What difficulty are you playing on? If you're easily controlling all CS's while supposedly focusing science, it's time to up the difficulty. Do you usually get world leader on the first vote? If you're getting to the 3rd or 4th vote, you're not pushing science hard enough.
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Mar 19, 2014 20:42
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Yeah, science victory is really the "you haven't gotten any other victory yet? Whelp." The last tech you need for culture victories really is the one that gives you Broadcast Towers, though of course the Internet is a big help. If you need Giant Robots to finish your domination victory then something has gone badly wrong or you're just being lazy. Diplomacy victories are winnable as soon as you enter the Information Age (or everyone reaches the Atomic), which is going to be something like a hundred turns before you have all the spaceship techs unlocked. If you want to prevent other civs from winning diplo victories, then beat them up (so they don't have the resources to buy out city-states) and/or ally with most of the city-states. In my last Standard-size game with the default number of civs and city-states, I needed literally every city-state in my pocket and the Forbidden Palace to have enough votes to win a diplo victory on the first vote. It's not hard to disrupt that. Or you could just turn diplo victories off of course.
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Mar 19, 2014 20:43
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dayman posted:What difficulty are you playing on? If you're easily controlling all CS's while supposedly focusing science, it's time to up the difficulty. Do you usually get world leader on the first vote? If you're getting to the 3rd or 4th vote, you're not pushing science hard enough. I usually play on Prince, I am brand new to the game/series. I just got the game a month ago. I find upping the difficulty to be hard to the point it isn't fun, I can't get the hang of the happiness stuff. I always get world leader on first vote. I've never seen it get past the first World Leader vote, the first time I accidentally voted in Japan as world leader because I thought we were just picking a host city like all the other times, and I didn't have enough delegates to outvote Atilla, and the AI votes for itself. So I figured I would give them to Japan, because they were my ally and I didn't mind if they had the head seat for a while. Then they got the diplomatic victory  I should also mention that I am wanting to win Science victory for personal achievement purposes, I know the obvious answer is "just go for a different victory type" 
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Mar 19, 2014 20:45
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Putin It In Mah rear end posted:LP or it didn't happen TooMuchAbstraction posted:Yeah, science victory is really the "you haven't gotten any other victory yet? Whelp." The last tech you need for culture victories really is the one that gives you Broadcast Towers, though of course the Internet is a big help.
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Mar 19, 2014 20:48
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What policies are you taking? Don't fill out Patronage. Science victory can go like All Tradition-->Open Commerce-->All Rationalism-->Freedom Ideology.
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Mar 19, 2014 20:50
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I usually take Tradition, and then Commerce, and then Rationalism and Liberty, and I take the Order ideology. I haven't messed around with patronage. The thing is, if I don't have that many seats in congress I have so much money on hand that I can just buy happiness from every city-state in the turn just before the congress meeting. I don't even need Patronage. I was never this rich before BNW. Caravans seem hilariously broken, I'm rolling in money and absolutely nothing about my playstyle has changed otherwise.
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Mar 19, 2014 20:54
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Suzuki Method posted:I usually play on Prince, I am brand new to the game/series. I just got the game a month ago. I find upping the difficulty to be hard to the point it isn't fun, I can't get the hang of the happiness stuff. Disable diplomatic victory. You should up the difficulty anyway, even if it gives you a few growing pains. Maybe it's just me but knowing I pretty much can't screw the game up makes it no fun.
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Mar 19, 2014 21:01
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Don't take Liberty late. Its an early game tree at best. Even then, you have to go all in and play wide to make best use of it. Its definitely not a tree you take one or two policies and then move on, like Patronage used to be with Consulates.
biscuits and crazy fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 19, 2014 21:04
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dayman posted:What policies are you taking? Don't fill out Patronage. Science victory can go like All Tradition-->Open Commerce-->All Rationalism-->Freedom Ideology. What about in multiplayer games? I'm kinda all about making City-States like me and taking full advantage of that when I'm playing with others (because a city-state won't demand all my luxury resources for one salt)
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Mar 19, 2014 21:11
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Suzuki Method posted:I was never this rich before BNW. Caravans seem hilariously broken, I'm rolling in money and absolutely nothing about my playstyle has changed otherwise. They aren't really. Keep in mind that you no longer get any money from rivers or sea tiles, and you always ended up rolling in money by the lategame anyway.
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Mar 19, 2014 21:12
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Gort posted:They aren't really. Keep in mind that you no longer get any money from rivers or sea tiles, and you always ended up rolling in money by the lategame anyway. And as soon as hostilities start the AI will destroy any of your caravans it can get its hands on -- and on sufficiently open maps, barbarians (and barbarian ships) will pillage your caravans/cargo ships. The caravan system also imposes a fiscal cost to being at war with everyone, since you can't trade with them. If you try to play Always War you'll probably find your GPT in the shitter because it's bloody hard to make money.
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Mar 19, 2014 21:19
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Doltos posted:What about in multiplayer games? I'm kinda all about making City-States like me and taking full advantage of that when I'm playing with others (because a city-state won't demand all my luxury resources for one salt) Non-coop multiplayer is big a blindspot for me. All my friends hate it because the turns are so long, and they're too dickish to not follow the gentlemen's agreement regarding combat. From my limited perspective, securing CS's in a FFA multiplayer game would be highly advantageous. Happiness is one of the biggest things you need to battle when going for science victory. Usually it's no problem, but if the other players can see you're having a problem, they (rightfully) ain't giving you poo poo. An enemy that can't grow is way more valuable than +20GPT or whatever the rate might be.
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Mar 19, 2014 21:30
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Gort posted:They aren't really. Keep in mind that you no longer get any money from rivers or sea tiles, and you always ended up rolling in money by the lategame anyway. I usually luck out by getting a city state close by enough that setting up a road and caravan, and having one unit sit in front of it so no Barbarians can take it, can happen really early in the game and helps a lot. Then again, I also play kinda dangerously and don't keep many units. Also, does your city defense number have anything to do with whether other civs will consider going to war with you? I was next door neighbours with Atilla the loving Hun one game, with border dispute. His city was around strength 20 when mine was easily reaching 100 (specifically because I spent so much on defense due to being next to Atilla the Hun) and he never went to war with me, even after denouncing me like twice. Suzuki Method fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 19, 2014 21:30
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Suzuki Method posted:I usually luck out by getting a city state close by enough that setting up a road and caravan, and having one unit sit in front of it so no Barbarians can take it, can happen really early in the game and helps a lot. Then again, I also play kinda dangerously and don't keep many units. City-state GPT from caravans tends to be poor compared to trading with other civs' big cities, too. quote:Also, does your city defense number have anything to do with whether other civs will consider going to war with you? I was next door neighbours with Atilla the loving Hun one game, with border dispute. His city was around strength 20 when mine was easily reaching 100 (specifically because I spent so much on defense due to being next to Atilla the Hun) and he never went to war with me, even after denouncing me like twice. AIs will definitely look at the demographics page as well as whatever of your army they can see, so stationing military on your border can help stave off war. If you look weak then they're more likely to attack. Dunno if they consider city strength though. And on Prince the AI won't generally be very aggressive unless you pay zero attention to military.
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Mar 19, 2014 21:38
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Ah okay, didn't know that. Before BNW if I had a city-state nearby I would just link a road to them without thinking about it. v  v
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Mar 19, 2014 21:41
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I'm moderately sure that roads extend caravan range. So if a city is 12 tiles away, your caravan has a range of 10, then you'll need 4 tiles of road and 8 tiles of non-road to reach that city with your caravan.
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Mar 19, 2014 21:49
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I also thought the reason you get less gold from City-State caravans was because you're giving gold and science to another Civ when you trade with them.
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Mar 19, 2014 21:51
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Doltos posted:I also thought the reason you get less gold from City-State caravans was because you're giving gold and science to another Civ when you trade with them. I'm pretty sure it has more to do with city-states being even shittier than AI-controlled cities. You get a full breakdown of what contributes to the caravan's income -- it's stuff like luxury resources they have and you don't, their population, buildings they have (e.g. markets give extra money to civs that connect caravans to the cities those markets are in), etc. But really, worrying about the boost you're giving to a single other civ is generally overdoing things. It's more important to help yourself than it is to not help an opponent. Especially when it comes to the AI; you can generally assume they have money coming out their ears anyway because they cheat so much. They just don't know how to use it.
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Mar 19, 2014 21:56
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My experience has been completely different, usually the other civs are broke next to me.  To the point doing Research Agreements is hard because they lack the funds.I hate Declaration of Friendships because the other civs regularly ask me for over 700 dollars. Like really? get your own t 
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Mar 19, 2014 22:13
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Suzuki Method posted:His city was around strength 20 when mine was easily reaching 100 You're giving me frown lines. Suzuki Method posted:My experience has been completely different, usually the other civs are broke next to me. On Prince they won't have any money. I think Emperor is the first level where people will semi regularly be able to foot the bill for it. Usually I just give them enough money to pay for the agreement and then pay the agreement and all the extra on top of that for being so far ahead in tech.
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Mar 19, 2014 22:21
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