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Blhue posted:Wait, there are people on MMOs that don't react like petty monsters to perceived slights? In my experience, people will put up with ridiculous amounts of poo poo if it means they can get new shinies. Log Horizon is actually really unrealistic because all of the top raiding guilds on that server we've seen have been led by reasonable, intelligent people instead of power-tripping caustic autists.
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Mar 29, 2014 22:46
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Serious Frolicking posted:Log Horizon is actually really unrealistic because all of the top raiding guilds on that server we've seen have been led by reasonable, intelligent people instead of power-tripping caustic autists. haha, yeah. That's the fantasy aspect of this anime.
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Mar 29, 2014 23:01
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Now that I think about it, I would have found Demiglace's character a lot more believable if they'd got the lady who does Naruto to voice him instead of Generic Fantasy Bandit Leader.
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Mar 30, 2014 09:13
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Serious Frolicking posted:In my experience, people will put up with ridiculous amounts of poo poo if it means they can get new shinies. Log Horizon is actually really unrealistic because all of the top raiding guilds on that server we've seen have been led by reasonable, intelligent people instead of power-tripping caustic autists. Is Japanese MMO culture different from American/European MMO culture? That might make a difference
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Mar 30, 2014 10:45
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Xelkelvos posted:Is Japanese MMO culture different from American/European MMO culture? That might make a difference Having played ffxi for years, I can safely say that no, it is not.
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Mar 30, 2014 12:35
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Serious Frolicking posted:Having played ffxi for years, I can safely say that no, it is not. I thought the Japanese even form lines to do buggy dungeons?
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Mar 30, 2014 18:42
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As another XI player, I can back up his claim. Idiots are universal; bad players acted the same, regardless of their background. Now EUROPEANS on the other hand...I kid, I kid.
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Mar 30, 2014 19:16
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Darth Walrus posted:By contrast, Shiroe is a strategist and debuffer - he needs folks like Akatsuki, Naotsugu, and Nyanta to break face, whilst folks like Crusty and Soujiro handle face-to-face politics, organising military campaigns, and so on. This co-operative approach naturally results in other characters getting more screentime and cool stuff to do, meaning that it's not just the Shiroe show all day, every day. This is what I like most about LH. I wouldn't even consider Shiroe to be a power fantasy as you described, but more as a trope or stereotype turned on its head. Shiroe is actually the weakest in terms of combat, and is completely reliant on other people: Not just in battle, but in everything. Shiroe is a main hero, but is entirely dependent on the cast to get anything done.
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Mar 30, 2014 22:42
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User0015 posted:This is what I like most about LH. I wouldn't even consider Shiroe to be a power fantasy as you described, but more as a trope or stereotype turned on its head. Shiroe is actually the weakest in terms of combat, and is completely reliant on other people: Not just in battle, but in everything. Shiroe is a main hero, but is entirely dependent on the cast to get anything done. I think you're digging to fit your hypothesis. In many parts of the show Shiroe is shown not only holding his own but beating the gently caress out of things without the help of other people, or making brand new magic, or doing somethingorother.
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Mar 30, 2014 23:47
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User0015 posted:This is what I like most about LH. I wouldn't even consider Shiroe to be a power fantasy as you described, but more as a trope or stereotype turned on its head. Shiroe is actually the weakest in terms of combat, and is completely reliant on other people: Not just in battle, but in everything. Shiroe is a main hero, but is entirely dependent on the cast to get anything done. Well, it is an MMO. Cooperative effort should be key to any major endeavor. Which is really the problem with SAO, because cooperative effort is never important in any way. SAO really gets the MMO parts wrong, to the point that I doubt the author ever actually played one.
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Mar 30, 2014 23:52
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Drifter posted:I think you're digging to fit your hypothesis. In many parts of the show Shiroe is shown not only holding his own but beating the gently caress out of things without the help of other people, or making brand new magic, or doing somethingorother. I agree. Everyone plays a role. It isn't just a story about Shiroe, but a story about the guild and the Round Table. Teamwork and all that good stuff.
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Mar 31, 2014 00:18
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Well, Shiroe is a power fantasy in the vein of Light or Lelouch, with the added benefit of being morally upstanding and thereby justifying everything he does wihin the power fantasy (this is actually a big part of how they work(I should know)). The problem is that he lacks an L, or a Suzaku, someone who can consistently counteract his schemes and really push Shiroe to his limits. I just hope this new Nuneha character can do it properly.
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Mar 31, 2014 00:24
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Drifter posted:I think you're digging to fit your hypothesis. In many parts of the show Shiroe is shown not only holding his own but beating the gently caress out of things without the help of other people, or making brand new magic, or doing somethingorother. Compare SA:O and LH. Kirito spends his time leveling, getting items and generally growing strong, so he can defeat the final boss and escape. He's so awesome at being strong, the game even rewards him with a unique skill that only he can use, that makes him more powerful than anyone else that is his equal. He is a man above everyone else. In LH, Shiroe spends his time building a better city, gathering allies, building a strong guild..., all social aspects of an MMO world. It's completely night and day, where one focuses on growing himself, and the other one focuses on growing the world. Even the final episode is his plan to better the world. I don't think it's a stretch to say it takes the trope of growing stronger, and instead turns it to helping everyone grow stronger.
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Mar 31, 2014 01:25
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User0015 posted:Compare SA:O and LH. Kirito spends his time leveling, getting items and generally growing strong, so he can defeat the final boss and escape. He's so awesome at being strong, the game even rewards him with a unique skill that only he can use, that makes him more powerful than anyone else that is his equal. He is a man above everyone else. You don't think being the oh so smart puppetmaster of a Guild/Coalition is a power fantasy? Shiroe is essentially what The Mittani sees himself as.
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Mar 31, 2014 01:52
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It is definitely a wish-fulfillment fantasy, but that isn't the main point of the story. Or rather, it is a story instead of being a paper-thin excuse for a gary stu to run around.
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Mar 31, 2014 01:52
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User0015 posted:Compare SA:O and LH. Kirito spends his time leveling, getting items and generally growing strong, so he can defeat the final boss and escape. He's so awesome at being strong, the game even rewards him with a unique skill that only he can use, that makes him more powerful than anyone else that is his equal. He is a man above everyone else. No don't compare. Why would you? LH has a very powerful main character and it doesn't matter that some other anime has an even more powerful one. It's a great show BECAUSE it spends a lot of time developing more of the social aspects of whatever, but it doesn't make Shiroe LESS powerful like you are trying to explain.
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Mar 31, 2014 02:08
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What I liked about LH was that other characters got decent screen time and felt separate from the main hero (shiroe).
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Mar 31, 2014 02:23
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Serious Frolicking posted:It is definitely a wish-fulfillment fantasy, but that isn't the main point of the story. Or rather, it is a story instead of being a paper-thin excuse for a gary stu to run around. Exactly.
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Mar 31, 2014 02:25
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Serious Frolicking posted:Well, it is an MMO. Cooperative effort should be key to any major endeavor. Which is really the problem with SAO, because cooperative effort is never important in any way. SAO really gets the MMO parts wrong, to the point that I doubt the author ever actually played one. You're actually correct. Kirito skillwise wasn't necessarily a wish fulfillment as much as it was exactly how the author viewed high-level players in MMOs. As for the other thing, that's significantly the fault of the anime. The LNs actually did lay out roles and tactics in the boss battles, but the anime sort of just tossed that part in favor of everyone just charging them. One of the more interesting things about SAO is that the author is well aware of the weaknesses in the early novels, and is rewriting them as SAO: Progressive in order to change how certain things played out, as well as give other characters more screentime on their own. As for comparisons between the two, it's really apples and oranges. Log Horizon is much more about world building, whereas SAO is not. Even calling them both shows about MMOs is relatively false, since while SAO still mostly behaved like one 90%+ of the time, Log Horizon is much more a standard fantasy world. Ergo, SAO was an MMO with the one death only rule, whereas Log Horizon started with them thinking it was still an MMO, but as they went along they kept discovering situation after situation where it was apparent it really wasn't anymore.
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Mar 31, 2014 05:00
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I'm not quite sure why people fixate so much on that anyway. A lot of my favorite serious novels have characters, sometimes protagonists, that are obviously a self insert. As long as the story is enjoyable anyway, who gives a poo poo?
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Mar 31, 2014 05:05
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In some ways Shiroe is a wish fulfillment character, but certainly not to the extent that Kirito was. I mean even if the stuff with Shiroe not wanting to join a guild in the past was a rather tiny flaw, at least that's more than you can say about Kirito and his "flaws" 
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Mar 31, 2014 05:51
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Eh, they are both wish-fulfillment characters, just appealing to different stereotypes of it. Kirito had interesting qualities to his character as well that aren't commonly done in anime, but nothing in the ways of flaws. Heck, the way he wears black clothes, uses a sword with no shield, wears light armor and eventually unlocks dual-wielding is tremendous ego-pandering, but those moments weren't what made the series interesting to watch, other than for seeing assholes get the poo poo beat out of them. Shiroe has similar compunctions that are sort of shallow, a loner that grows to be very powerful in the social meta-game of an MMO and for some reason does it so well that it basically puts him on the scale of a God or puppetmaster in the show. It is very interesting to watch, but still appeals to the same notions of power fantasy people have while playing an MMO. I remember when my friends and I made our own guild, I was made a leader and I ended up making a lot of deals and worked some plots in similar fashion, even seeing consequences of that (got one troublesome player kicked from a big PvP guild for picking fights with our dwarf) and ended up with a ton of money from making deals with other guilds. Makes me realise I really wish for another immergant gameplay focused MMO again, haven't had an experience like that since WoW caught on.
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Mar 31, 2014 08:40
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Srice posted:In some ways Shiroe is a wish fulfillment character, but certainly not to the extent that Kirito was. I mean even if the stuff with Shiroe not wanting to join a guild in the past was a rather tiny flaw, at least that's more than you can say about Kirito and his "flaws" Uh Kirito had the same "flaw" about not wanting to join a guild. He was a solo player that occasionally grouped up with guilds who were tackling floor bosses. He didn't join a guild til he lost a duel with Heathcliff. Seriously though, LH and SAO have completely different approaches to MMOs. LH focuses more on politics and the world as a whole, as there is no goal to the game other than merely existing in this new world. SAO has a defined goal and is completely focused on the main male and female character. And has a defined goal for the players to reach. Reach floor 100 Beat the final boss to be released from the game. Save Asuna. Investigate "Death Gun", Mothers Rosario doesn't really have a goal as it's a self-contained story about Asuna. and Alicization is about as close to a show like LH as SAO gets. SAO also had a crazy amount of poo poo that was left out in the Anime, Like Most LN's the author leaned on inner monologue like a crutch to explain mechanics/strategy. That the anime just essentially cut(Thank god they found the time to add Suguha fanservice though, don't know what I would have done without that).
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Mar 31, 2014 12:03
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Drifter posted:I think you're digging to fit your hypothesis. In many parts of the show Shiroe is shown not only holding his own but beating the gently caress out of things without the help of other people, or making brand new magic, or doing somethingorother. Except he is explicitly shown as "I lose" if he ever gets into a direct conflict with anyone close to his level without an army to back him up. Shiroe is about the "World Magic", and each degree of directness cuts him a tier in power, to the point he cannot do anything whatsoever without back-up when it comes to combat. Now, i understand that Shiroe is a manipulator blablabla, but everyone in the show is a manipulator to some degree. Krusty, Soujiro, Nureha or even Henrietta are manipulators to some degree, and all are stronger than him in the direct combat sense. LH is definitely a power fantasy in the sense of "lots of nerds get power", but it's actually not about the nerds getting power, it's about the consequences. And that's why you can't compare it to trash like SAO.
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Mar 31, 2014 13:08
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Well, we don't really know that much about pvp. Maybe there are some people that Shiroe could beat 1v1 despite using a support class, but it isn't terribly relevant to the story either way. Shiroe isn't really a leader or a manipulator. I'd say Krusty outdoes him in both of those respects. Shiroe is a visionary- he comes up with big plans and thinks outside of the box, but then he uses his practical mmo experience to break it down into tasks he can feasibly accomplish (with help). That particular set of talents isn't even unique to Shiroe. Novel spoilers: Overskills are basically the same as Shiroe's adventurer contract. That is, they are twisting game systems into new forms that weren't possible in the original game. For (an unimportant) example, Nazuna uses kannagi barriers as steps for enhanced mobility. She is a melee kannagi, so she naturally came up with something to enhance her playstyle. The only real difference between overskills and world magic is the scale, and Shiroe isn't even the only one to manage world magic.
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Mar 31, 2014 13:39
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Arkeus posted:Except he is explicitly shown as "I lose" if he ever gets into a direct conflict with anyone close to his level without an army to back him up. And Kirito isn't some masterclass puppetmaster, He's elite at combat and fighting, but utterly sucks when it comes to dealing with guild politics and other players, he prefers to just be a front line grunt. SAO is essentially a show about a mix of Akatsuki as a solo player, and Soujiro would be like. Also all of those guys essentially do nothing but follow Shiroe's orders. The Round Table would have been were screwed or manipulated themselves until Shiroe figured out what was going on and executed a plan, in all 3 Arcs.
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Mar 31, 2014 13:43
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I was talking a friend about Log Horizon, and he told me that Shiroe reminded him of me. I countered that Shiroe was more like what every gamer wishes they were, and my friend said "well, I never wanted to be Shiroe". I instinctively viewed Shiroe as a power fantasy, but my friend didn't. I guess my point is just that Shiroe is a different power fantasy for different people. Nothing wrong with that.
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Mar 31, 2014 17:54
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Arkeus posted:Now, i understand that Shiroe is a manipulator blablabla, but everyone in the show is a manipulator to some degree. Krusty, Soujiro, Nureha or even Henrietta are manipulators to some degree, and all are stronger than him in the direct combat sense. Everyone but poor Raynesia. Her job is to look bewildered at all the scary glasses-people.
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Mar 31, 2014 20:19
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Marielle's also very definitely not a manipulator, and she was getting bewildered at the scary-glasses-people long before Lenessia stole that job.
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Mar 31, 2014 20:23
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Dragonatrix posted:Marielle's also very definitely not a manipulator, and she was getting bewildered at the scary-glasses-people long before Lenessia stole that job. Yeah in the anime Marielle comes across as a slightly ditzy mother figure, she's good with the kids but is way over her head on anything else.
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Mar 31, 2014 20:37
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Kwyndig posted:Yeah in the anime Marielle comes across as a slightly ditzy mother figure, she's good with the kids but is way over her head on anything else. She's essentially an idol type character; she's popular and in charge due to charisma, personality, and her focus on people in her guild. Day to day operations aren't her strong suit, but she's smart enough to know who she can leave those responsibilities to. The meeting to create the round table was great in that respect, since Marielle knew she was way out of her areas of expertise but knew to keep a straight face anyway. I enjoyed her character; she's kinda the anti-Shiro.
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Mar 31, 2014 20:50
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Clarste posted:I was talking a friend about Log Horizon, and he told me that Shiroe reminded him of me. I countered that Shiroe was more like what every gamer wishes they were, and my friend said "well, I never wanted to be Shiroe". I instinctively viewed Shiroe as a power fantasy, but my friend didn't. I guess my point is just that Shiroe is a different power fantasy for different people. Nothing wrong with that. That is why this is a discussion in the first place, I assume, and people wishing to project which qualities are better of the two says more about the user than the show. 
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Mar 31, 2014 21:19
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To be fair being smart and good at talking and negotiating and seeing ways to leverage the situation to your advantage are useful qualities in today's society, it gets you lodsofmoney. Unlike say your ability to hit things with a stick.
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Mar 31, 2014 23:06
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Phobophilia posted:To be fair being smart and good at talking and negotiating and seeing ways to leverage the situation to your advantage are useful qualities in today's society, it gets you lodsofmoney. Kirito is also a genius programmer and ace detective and stuff.
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Mar 31, 2014 23:23
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Blhue posted:I'm not quite sure why people fixate so much on that anyway. A lot of my favorite serious novels have characters, sometimes protagonists, that are obviously a self insert. As long as the story is enjoyable anyway, who gives a poo poo? You're point is a little mixed up. People aren't 'giving a poo poo' about self-inserts because they automatically make a story bad, even if it's good. It's that, if the protagonist is a self-insert, your chance of getting a good story is bad.
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Mar 31, 2014 23:35
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User0015 posted:You're point is a little mixed up. People aren't 'giving a poo poo' about self-inserts because they automatically make a story bad, even if it's good. It's that, if the protagonist is a self-insert, your chance of getting a good story is bad.
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Mar 31, 2014 23:42
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Kirito being a self-insert is not the only reason why SAO is poo poo
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Mar 31, 2014 23:50
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For a self-insert, I thought Kirito was fairly decent, actually. There are however, many other things that drag SAO down a bit, one of which is the entire second half.
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Apr 1, 2014 13:28
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Which is why I generally talk about SAO pretending the second arc doesn't exist. I never really cared that Kirito was a self insert because I always thought of him as a proxy for us to explore the surrounding world and see how different people handle this bizarre situation.
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Apr 1, 2014 16:43
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ViggyNash posted:Which is why I generally talk about SAO pretending the second arc doesn't exist. SOP when enjoying SAO, really. One day the dood will write that arc and not make it a complete hash but that day will be far off in the future and for now, it goes into the personal little phantom zone in our minds that we all use to consign anime's most undesirables; the likes of Nadesico: Prince of Darkness, Digimon Season 2 and the very arse end of Gurren Lagann, too. That said, Log Horizon is a great way to undo all the Damage Fairy Dance did and I can't wait for their respective sequels.
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