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   What...I...how?  I've seen city states take cities before, but never on the literal other side of the world.
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Mar 29, 2014 23:13
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Star Platinum posted:
Does Zurich even have water access to Venice? Maybe it was a double agent great merchant.
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Mar 29, 2014 23:15
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It's vaguely possible that a bunch of ships from some other Civ, at war with Venice, beat the city down and then Zurich, being an ally of said Civ, had a caravel nearby and just strolled in. That's the only way I can see that happening Also lol @ the Huns
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Mar 29, 2014 23:19
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Nice to see the Huns playing properly. 
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Mar 30, 2014 00:20
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That city-state taking Venice reminds me of a recent game where I was Sweden and wanted to do some nice friendly stuff and get lots of great people, but first I had to kill the Ottomans because they were farting terrbile cities next to me and blocking my access to half the world. No problem, I'll just pay off my pals to go to war with them and obviate some of my warmonger penalties... except none of them had ever heard of the Ottomans. Despite the fact that they never knew the Ottomans existed, my taking Istanbul led them to believe that my warmongering was an issue of global prominence right up to the Information Era. Ghandi and Casimir jointly denounced me all loving game over something they couldn't even know about. It's like if modern-day Japan hated modern -day Italy for what the Romans did to the Gauls. Apparently the warmonger penalty only cares about if they know you - their knowledge of the victim or lack thereof is not a factor. My revenge was to watch Casimir eventually turn on Ghandi and take all but one of his cities. For the coup de grace, I sailed over to that city and nuked it, then bombarded it with a battleship until Salamanca sauntered over and took it with a caravel. I moved up to immortal and tried out the peaceful piety-starter playing from behind thing. I messed it up because I'm addicted to killing anyone who drops a garbage city near my capital and Washington not only did that but had also built like 5 wonders while I still had composite bows... just too tempting. Even with that warmongering, the only civ that ever declared war on me was Dido and she's about as crafty as a three-year-old. Oh you're friendly to me, eh? Yeah I bet.
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Mar 30, 2014 05:21
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Jimbozig posted:Apparently the warmonger penalty only cares about if they know you Correct. If you're in the middle of a beat-down and you can't afford to have the warmonger penalty, put down the cudgel. This is why I always kind of "ugh" when I'm early aggressing and a maori warrior disembarks next to my city.
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Mar 30, 2014 16:28
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I thought I saw something earlier in the thread about how Barbarian units are determined but I can't find it. I am playing a 4 (human) vs 4 (AI) vs 4 (AI) on Deity and the Barbarian units are progressing through the era's almost every other turn it feels like.
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Mar 30, 2014 17:12
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Jimbozig posted:Apparently the warmonger penalty only cares about if they know you - their knowledge of the victim or lack thereof is not a factor. Be careful, though, because if you break any diplomatic promises (especially "I'm not declaring war on you"), everyone in the game knows about it instantly and that particular backstab modifier sneak attacks never decays.
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Mar 30, 2014 20:24
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Hey guys I found New Zealand in this game
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Mar 31, 2014 07:40
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Ah yes, well‐known Kiwi landmark Mount Kilimanjaro.
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Mar 31, 2014 08:22
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I think I have the worst luck in this game when it comes to a civ's benefits. I'm playing a game right now where I'm Siam (double food/faith/culture from CS bonuses), and out of the first 8 city states I discovered, they were all Mercantile/Militaristic except for one Maritime. I've finally discovered the cultural/religious ones, but they were on the other side of the world and it's 1500AD now. This sort of thing keeps happening to me. I was playing Indonesia and never had a source of iron near the start, so I played a full game and never got to see the Kris swordsman mechanic in action. Or the time I was Venice, but started in the far corner of the world and so had an incredibly long period where no one was in range of my trade ships. I swear the map gen is loving with me.
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Mar 31, 2014 11:50
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That's pretty standard. Except when I'm trying to play as Siam I'm always always up against Greece, Venice and Austria all making the UA utterly worthless.
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Mar 31, 2014 12:34
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I started messing around with some of the different maps in single player. "Ring" sounded awesome so I started a game on that, built my usual four cities mostly along the southern coast (which looked to be temperate), and then figured out that the map just ends on the edges, without icecaps. It doesn't even wrap on the east and west sides. So I guess instead of a planet my civilization is living on some sort of flat construct floating in space? Peas and Rice fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Mar 31, 2014 |
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Mar 31, 2014 17:44
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Peas and Rice posted:I started messing around with some of the different maps in single player. "Ring" sounded awesome so I started a game on that, built my usual four cities mostly along the southern coast (which looked to be temperate), and then figured out that the map just ends on the edges, without icecaps. It doesn't even wrap on the east and west sides. Ring sucks because it puts all the CS's in the sea in the middle. Recently created a couple deity games in standard size and speed Europe. For some reason it's hard as balls. Could be just a couple bad rolls but in my first game as Alex, I started in Spain and France. Got 4 cities humming along nicely, but Arabia (starting in Morocco and Algeria) quickly became a runaway and, despite my best efforts to bribe him into war with other civs, he eventually came calling. By that time we were about even in tech but his army was at least 10x my size. GG. Next game I rolled Morocco and started in Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and southern Turkey. Portugal started making GBS threads out cities from her home base (also Morocco and Algeria). Once again, military proved to be my downfall. My production in the capital was lovely though and I was trying my best to get ahead in science to ensure my lack of military wouldn't be as damning. England and Portugal DOW me simultaneously. Usually, I'm able to bribe AI to stay at war with each other until I feel ready to take them but in the Europe map, for whatever reason, the AI happily will be at war with 2-3 civs and still DOW me. Deity for me has always been about building just enough units to be able to hold off an attack by one civ. Any more and you're gonna fall behind in science. If two or more civs DOW simultaneously, I'm usually sunk.
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Mar 31, 2014 18:18
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dayman posted:Usually, I'm able to bribe AI to stay at war with each other until I feel ready to take them but in the Europe map, for whatever reason, the AI happily will be at war with 2-3 civs and still DOW me. Which raises a question: what does the AI actually do when you bribe them to go to war? I mean, if an AI asks me to wardec someone, depending on who the AI is I may happily comply, but that doesn't mean I'll actually persecute the war beyond making certain my defenders are situated sensibly in case the wardecced civ comes calling. Will the AI actually send their units off to fight when you bribe them to go to war? Otherwise it seems kind of pointless.
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Mar 31, 2014 18:29
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Which raises a question: what does the AI actually do when you bribe them to go to war? I mean, if an AI asks me to wardec someone, depending on who the AI is I may happily comply, but that doesn't mean I'll actually persecute the war beyond making certain my defenders are situated sensibly in case the wardecced civ comes calling. Will the AI actually send their units off to fight when you bribe them to go to war? Otherwise it seems kind of pointless. Sometimes they go berserk and take over half the enemy country. Sometimes they just sit and watch eachother. I think it depends on their personality. Normally I can get the Zulu or Aztecs et. al. to do some real damage. I paid Korea to attack his neighbor Greece once, and they both kept moving their troops back and forth without doing anything.
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Mar 31, 2014 18:56
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In my game last night Assyria was between Siam and I and they were being very aggressive. I asked Siam for a defence pact and got it so when Assyria eventually declared on me Siam were dragged in too. I counterattacked Assyria because I wanted one of his cities and the eternal gratitude of liberated city states. Siam sent so many units at Assyria that they didn't know where to put their army and I managed to take one city and liberate 2 city states in the confusion. Then Assyria decided to replace their dead units with archeologists for some odd reason. He ended up with 9 archeologists parked along our shared border for centuries. There is no accounting for what the AI will do. Bitches be crazy.
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Mar 31, 2014 19:13
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The only thing you can count on is that they're less likely to attack you. Not totally unlikely, however.
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Mar 31, 2014 20:28
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Sometimes they go berserk and take over half the enemy country. Sometimes they just sit and watch eachother. I think it depends on their personality. This is why, somewhat counter intuitively, I think it's great when there's a really aggressive civ in the mix. Another deity game was won solely because I had Shaka sharing like a 18 tile border with me, but he never declared on me because I constantly had him beating down half the map. Had he (or Monty, Ashurn, or Attila) been in the Europe games I feel like it could have gone differently. For some reason that I cannot understand, Genghis sucks to have as a wardog. He always ends up pissing everyone off because he never ends up strong enough to scare them. 3-4 civs DOW on him simultaneously and well, then he belongs to the ages.
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Mar 31, 2014 20:33
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Is it just me or is there a huge difference in difficulty from Emperor to Immortal? In Emperor, I can win most games when I actually try (instead of just messing around fighting against Shaka for 2/3s of the game). On Immortal, if I get a good start, my neighbours tend to DOW me early, and while I'm usually able to hold them off, that ends up being sometimes 50-60 turns wasted on building military units instead of actual stuff. If I don't get off to a good start, the AI tends to ignore me more often than not and I just sort of end up existing for the duration of the game, hopelessly behind in everything. I'm also never able to build any wonders on Immortal, which is super annoying.
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Mar 31, 2014 21:13
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ColdBlooded posted:Is it just me or is there a huge difference in difficulty from Emperor to Immortal? In Emperor, I can win most games when I actually try (instead of just messing around fighting against Shaka for 2/3s of the game). On Immortal, if I get a good start, my neighbours tend to DOW me early, and while I'm usually able to hold them off, that ends up being sometimes 50-60 turns wasted on building military units instead of actual stuff. It's not your imagination. The jump from Emperor to Immortal is one of the biggest. To avoid early DOW remember to not grant embassies until they've already had a scout by your capital. Bribe warlike civs to declare on your neighbors especially if spies reveal they're plotting against you. And don't ignore your military. I like to play with raging barbs because it sort of forces you to build an army. It's tempting to just go all out buildings but nothing will get you killed faster than a tiny army. You'll never have #1 military at this level, usually not in the top half if you're focusing science like you should, but having 2-3 ranged units and a single melee per city is a good place to start for defence. Just be sure to keep them upgraded. Nothings worse then getting sneak attacked in the industrial era and realizing your city garrison is still a comp bowman. As far as competing in other metrics, science victory is still probably the easiest for most civs. Get your National College early, and then just grow, grow, grow. If your start has low luxury diversity, make sure that you check the diplomacy screen every single turn when you have duplicates available. AI at high level will quickly trade their duplicate luxuries away so you need to be quick to snag them and maintain enough excess happiness for growth. Establish food trade routes to your capital. If you can make some friends with lower score civs, get 2-3 research agreements going. Try to get Scholars in Residence passed (it usually will early in the game). Make sure you're filling your science specialist slots and building GP boosting buildings (Garden, National Epic). Open Rationalism ASAP (I usually save 1-2 great writers for when I enter the Renaissance, so I can ping that opener right away.) and get the +2 science per specialist, then 25% increase in GS, 17% from universities, then gold, then try to keep a high turn tech open for finishing the tree. Use your first spy to grab techs from other civs. Park him in a capital until they discover he's spying then rotate to the next one. Don't spy on the #1 science civ because they usually build anti-espionage buildings early. Focus on the lowest civs that have higher tech than you. Once you secure the science lead, make sure you build anti-espionage buildings and keep an upgraded spy in your capital. dayman fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Mar 31, 2014 |
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Mar 31, 2014 21:23
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There is a bit of a jump from Emperor to Immortal, yeah. Build 3-4 archers early on and you'll probably discourage all but the most obvious DOWs. Building too many wonders is a common mistake that jumping to the higher difficulties will dissuade you from. With practice you can pick a few key wonders and snag them, but 1) it's almost impossible to play a wonder hogging game, especially for the pre-Renaissance wonders, and 2) even if you can start hogging wonders it's often not a very good idea to try--you need to balance your wonder production against infrastructure/military building.
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Mar 31, 2014 21:24
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Another thing that will reduce early DOWs on Immortal and up is to figure out where the AI's around you are expanding as quickly as possible, and then not forward expanding into that. Forward expanding really pisses them off. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, but if you have options it is almost always better not to forward expand unless you're looking to pick a fight anyhow. Also echoing the wonder thing - you have to ease off on them big time, and the early ones will often put you behind fundamentally in places you don't want to be behind too much (units mostly)
Saltin fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Apr 1, 2014 |
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Apr 1, 2014 00:39
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If they covet your lands AT ALL (even dark red) you will fight them at some point unless you keep them otherwise occupied.
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Apr 1, 2014 01:50
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I'm surprised at how small the Earth type map is. At first I was pleased that I was the only civ in North America until scouting revealed how most of Canada was tundra and my west coast was inhospitable desert. I had to boot the two city states on my continent just to get good sites for three cities. My fourth claimed most of Central America and is pretty crappy, but at least Panama serves as a natural choke point. Is the Europe type map better scaled?
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Apr 1, 2014 04:58
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moot the hopple posted:Is the Europe type map better scaled?
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Apr 1, 2014 12:21
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moot the hopple posted:Is the Europe type map better scaled? Not especially unless you pick huge. Like Poil said, sometimes Italy gets rendered all weird. I just have a boner for playing out alternate old world histories.
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Apr 1, 2014 13:55
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The problem with Civ as a world history generator is that Europe is just too drat small for the number of civs there, and civs that can't expand even a little bit have no chance against ones that get tons of uncontested land like Russia or China. Maybe what's needed is a Civ map deformed specifically so that each civ gets roughly the same amount of space. Massive Europe, tiny South America.
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Apr 1, 2014 14:37
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Gort posted:Maybe what's needed is a Civ map deformed specifically so that each civ gets roughly the same amount of space. Massive Europe, tiny South America. Or tile yields modded horrendously so that vast swathes of terrain are near useless but some pockets are uber-productive.
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Apr 1, 2014 15:22
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KKKlean Energy posted:Or tile yields modded horrendously so that vast swathes of terrain are near useless but some pockets are uber-productive. The problem is that you'd need a lot of concentrated resources in overcrowded areas like Europe, meaning if anyone conquers Europe they'd conquer the world. Actually I guess that might be kind of accurate for a history simulator. I know I've seen a super-distorted map like Gort was talking about, but I forget if it was even Civ V.
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Apr 1, 2014 15:27
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I played the Europe map and it's way too drat small. It's unnecessarily small. Make it bigger, that's the fix.
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Apr 1, 2014 15:30
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So after raging against Civ 5 initially, I got the humble bundle and all the packs etc. Its actually pretty enjoyable. There are just 3 issues that you guys may have figured out already. 1) Warmonger: How do I make this go away? So far it seems to stick around forever. (its been 200 turns and like, 3000 years) That is not really viable. I am not above modding it out because it is lovely lovely lovely. It has literally no reason to be there and no basis in either game design or reality to exist other than "I guess this should be there". 2) Spies: My poo poo's getting stolen yo. My spy is useless and I can't train them up. How do I get more spies? Or are you inherently limited? is the answer to this mods? 3) Finally: Diplomacy: It seems like no matter what you do, you lose. Literally. I have not had a single interaction with someone where they don't covet my poo poo, or demand crazy things, etc. I don't see a whole lot of positive vibes coming from anyone. What can make this better or what can I do different or both? I am not above modding anything to fix the game. Religion and social policies feel solid, tech is slow but good, city expansion is good. I even can tolerate 1upt now. But those 3 things are going to cause me to have a stroke.
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Apr 3, 2014 00:13
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Rhonyn Peacemaker posted:So after raging against Civ 5 initially, I got the humble bundle and all the packs etc. I keep stealing everyone's poo poo and they're getting mad at me, help! People keep stealing my poo poo and it's making me mad, help! I stole everyone's poo poo and they're mad at me, help! I find this series of complaints pretty funny. 1) Don't take cities if you don't want to be a warmonger. The more you take the worse it is. 2) Build the buildings that reduce steal rate. Alternatively, up the difficulty. If people are stealing from you you're going to win anyway. 3) Trade (caravans and deals) and stop killing all their people.
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Apr 3, 2014 00:45
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Rhonyn Peacemaker posted:DIPLOMACY Well, first, stop being a dick to everyone. Warmonger is there because they should legitimately get angry at you from murdering and displacing hundreds of thousands of people. For spies, Bashez is right, build more spy buildings. Lastly, I just ignore diplomacy, murder everyone and take over the congress by killing anyone who can hold onto city states that I can't. Because at the end of the day, the AI will still start to act erratically and violently as you get closer to winning the game, no matter the method. Might as well get the murder on now when I'm ready for it than later when they are ready for it.
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Apr 3, 2014 00:53
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Playing more peacefully will largely take care of #1 and #3. If you warmonger, know what you're in for. If you warmonger a little, particularly defensively, it's no big deal. If you warmonger a lot, the AI will - pretty logically - find you untrustworthy and dislike you because hey, you're on a murdering spree. Taking a city (even if you didn't start the war) is a moderate warmonger penalty, and completely wiping out a civ (or city-state) is an enormous one. Otherwise, diplomacy is mostly aided by: - Not doing things that will very obviously and unsurprisingly piss them off (such as but not limited to excessive warmongering) - Having a nice hefty army compared to the rest (check demographic rankings) - Not sharing many/any borders (which often comes as a result of not forward settling) - Having shared trade routes - Buddying up with them in various ways (e.g. trade things to them at favorable rates, denounce the people they denounce, etc.) - Late-game: being the same ideology (corollary: if you're different ideologies they'll probably be at least somewhat pissy to you no matter what) In terms of world congress diplomacy and passing the resolutions you want (including diplomatic victory), the answer is city-state allies, which largely translates to economy/GPT so you can buy them up. Try Venice or Greece. For #2, there are various buildings, national/world wonders, and social policies that can make it slower/harder for the AI to steal from you. Otherwise, pop a counterspy in your capital (which is, 90%+ of the time, where the enemy will be trying to spy on you). It may take a little while until they level up by catching someone, but once they do, they're much better at catching more people. Not to mention, if the AI can steal tech from you by spying, then you are ahead in tech in the first place and don't really need to worry about it too much.
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Apr 3, 2014 00:55
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Bottom line is: the AI is pretending to be another player trying to win the game, not pretending to be an actual civilization in an alternate history. So they will like you for doing things that improve their board position (favorable trades, assisting them in their diplomatic problems) and hate you for just about everything else. But being hated by other civs is not the end of the world. I've won diplomatic/cultural victories where literally every single AI was at Hostile, Guarded, or at best Neutral stance. They won't do anything to you if they don't like their odds in a fight, so about all that having them hate you does otherwise is lock you out of Research Agreements, worsen your tourism rate, and prevent you from getting favorable trades of resources and gold. Note that trade routes can only be interfered with by being at war, so you can send your caravans off to Mr. I-Hate-You-And-Everything-You-Stand-For and there's gently caress-all he can do about it.
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Apr 3, 2014 01:35
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Trade caravans also seem to encourage stability, since they won't want to lose that income/science.
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Apr 3, 2014 01:45
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With warmongering, a little bit is possible as long as you set the stage correctly. Find allies who will declare war with you, make sure you have declarations of friendships and really positive relations with your other neighbors, and so on. Doing these will mitigate or offset the penalties and with skillful diplomacy you can topple a civ or two without turning the rest of the world against you. Go too far or too fast, and you will make enemies of everyone. Also when warmongering, be more choosy about what cities you take. Capture the core cities you want in your empire and don't touch anything else, not even if you're razing (unless they're REALLY in the way). Let other civs take over the remaining cities. If you're doing diplomacy right, you can often get other civs to finish off your enemies. This is beneficial because finishing off a civ incurs a heavier penalty (the actual mechanic is that the fewer cities a civ has, the higher the warmonger penalty, meaning with each successive city you take the penalty gets higher for each one).
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Apr 3, 2014 01:56
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Suing for peace can be an effective way to pick up a city as well. If you're really laying into an AI, they'll often accept trading some of their cities for peace, or may even offer cities they felt they were about to lose anyway. There's no Warmonger penalty for getting a city in this way beyond the penalty you got for declaring war in the first place (if you were the one to declare).
John_A_Tallon fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Apr 3, 2014 |
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Apr 3, 2014 03:22
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Also, picking unpopular targets helps a lot. Wait for one of the other AIs to emerge as the world's bully and then you can go kick them in the face. You get a reputation boost from fighting the good fight against a common enemy, and if your target has taken city-states or foreign cities you can liberate them to lower your warmongeringness.
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Apr 3, 2014 04:15
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