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It's fairly sad that the last President to even try to stand up to Israel was Gerald Ford.
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Apr 1, 2014 23:52
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Sucrose posted:This is one of the few times I wish more Americans were harder nationalists. You mean isolationists.
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Apr 1, 2014 23:57
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computer parts posted:You mean isolationists. Because clearly our involvement is making things better in the middle east.
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Apr 2, 2014 00:08
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Nckdictator posted:It's fairly sad that the last President to even try to stand up to Israel was Gerald Ford.
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Apr 2, 2014 00:27
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Mitt Romney flew to Israel to get endorsed by Benjamin Netanyahu, so there has to be alot of bad blood there.
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Apr 2, 2014 00:30
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This whole hullabaloo about Pollard is completely pointless. If the U.S government wanted to actually 'entice' Israel to go to the negotiating table, they could hint at cutting off military aid. If they did that, we'd be seeing peace rallies in Jerusalem by week's end. Too bad that everyone doing that would pretty much be signing their own resignation notice.
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Apr 2, 2014 00:36
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I find the relationship between the United States and Israel to be completely baffling.
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Apr 2, 2014 00:37
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Phlegmish posted:I find the relationship between the United States and Israel to be completely baffling. In famous nerd wargame "Warhammer 40,000", technology has become so ritualized and the science behind it lost so long ago that computer programs are treated like spirits that must be prayed to and placated and this is basically how American realpolitik has evolved with regard to Israel since the end of the cold war.
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Apr 2, 2014 00:40
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The whole Pollard thing is fortunately kind of a moot point now. Apparently he somehow got wind that Palestinian prisoners would be released as a condition of his own, and realized that he'd probably go down as "the reason why the terrorists went home." Either way, the fact that his release was even on the table to begin with appalls me. It seems like no one wants a bilateral peace except for the Americans.
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Apr 2, 2014 00:44
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Phlegmish posted:I find the relationship between the United States and Israel to be completely baffling. Mostly it's inertia, but even if we decide to drop Israel who in the region that's not Iran (which other Middle-Eastern allies will hate) should be ally with instead? The Saudis pretend to hate Israel but they don't make that much of a fuss about it, the Egyptians have (at least minus the past couple years) been pretty secular about the whole deal, and I don't think Turkey really has that strong of feelings. Basically there's no real reason to drop support of Israel from a political ally standpoint because the only alternative for the region (Iran) is worse regarding how our other allies feel about them.
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Apr 2, 2014 00:45
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It's not the alliance itself that I find difficult to understand, it's the fact that the US are behaving like the subordinate partner. Just set them straight like the petulant child that they are. Who the hell else are they going to turn to if they don't like it?
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Apr 2, 2014 00:49
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Phlegmish posted:It's not the alliance itself that I find difficult to understand, it's the fact that the US are behaving like the subordinate partner. Just set them straight like the petulant child that they are. Who the hell else are they going to turn to if they don't like it? Republicans. America's unique relationship with Israel is based almost entirely on the fact that America has a very large, very active pro-Israel political community that will turn on a dime if politicians so much as say "occupied" instead of "disputed."
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Apr 2, 2014 00:52
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^^^It's mad ignorant to say 'republicans', there's a ton of Zionist leftwing factions and many of the Democratic strong supporting Jews fall into that faction. Pro-Israel lobbies exist on both sides, the only factions without them as fairly large branches of support are the total isolationist types. If those lobbies get upset they're very good at stirring up anger. Many American Jews who are political, even on the far left, have very Complex Feelings About Israel, and for many of us we have very recent memories of family being hurt or put in danger there that clouds judgement. It's not that they'll 'turn to someone else' it's a fear of them being alone and honestly that wouldn't be a good place for them. There's a good deal of fearmongering in the Zionist movements, where paradoxically Israel must use its massive military might to crush the Arabs and at the same time it's a mewling defenseless faun that will be devoured if left alone. That message, to many Jewish voters, resonates because, ya know, we kinda have a history of getting our poo poo pushed in a lot, so it's really easy to go 'oh right like (insert literally any era of history)' when some dude says unless the US supports Israel 100% and gives them tons of money and weapons they will literally be destroyed by the year end.
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Apr 2, 2014 00:56
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illrepute posted:Republicans. America's unique relationship with Israel is based almost entirely on the fact that America has a very large, very active pro-Israel political community that will turn on a dime if politicians so much as say "occupied" instead of "disputed."
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Apr 2, 2014 00:57
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Sad Banana posted:Also, almost all elected Democrats. Tatum Girlparts posted:^^^It's mad ignorant to say 'republicans', there's a ton of Zionist leftwing factions and many of the Democratic strong supporting Jews fall into that faction. Yeah definitely, I just brought up 'Republicans' as the entity that Israel would turn to if the current (Democratic) administration tried to distance itself from Israel. illrepute fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 01:00
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[url] http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/chris-christie-occupied-territories-apology-105169.html [/url] When you govern a state that is about the same size as Israel + West Bank you must subconsciously realize how ridiculous the situation is.
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Apr 2, 2014 01:03
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH0FnRmvEgE new from vice about Sunday's election in Turkey
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Apr 2, 2014 02:12
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McDowell posted:[url] http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/chris-christie-occupied-territories-apology-105169.html [/url] hahaha, he has to apologize to Israel because he wasn't sucking up like he was supposed to.
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Apr 2, 2014 02:23
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Count Roland posted:hahaha, he has to apologize to Israel because he wasn't sucking up like he was supposed to. Also all the Israeli organizations, politicians and lobbyists with money that he was appealing to and probably fund the candidates that shill for them. At the very least I do remember my Political Science classes mentioning some rather highly influential NGOs when it came to Israel in US politics.
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Apr 2, 2014 02:35
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Nckdictator posted:It's fairly sad that the last President to even try to stand up to Israel was Gerald Ford. How soon we forget George Sr and his weird presidency. McDowell posted:Mitt Romney flew to Israel to get endorsed by Benjamin Netanyahu, so there has to be alot of bad blood there. He did that because it's what you do if you're a Republican. The base eats that poo poo up. Didn't stop him from making an rear end out of himself just like he did in the UK, inspiring some high ranking Israeli officials to say electing Obama would be better for US/Israel relations.
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Apr 2, 2014 03:24
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HGH posted:Also all the Israeli organizations, politicians and lobbyists with money that he was appealing to and probably fund the candidates that shill for them. Yes, the real shame is that we in the US have allowed Congress to become so corrupt that it can literally be bought out by agents of foreign governments. I think this is what happened in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth right before it collapsed. Sucrose fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 05:04
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Sucrose posted:Yes, the real shame is that we in the US have allowed Congress to become so corrupt that it can literally be bought out by agents of foreign governments. I think this is what happened in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth right before it collapsed. In the PLC's case, this was particularly disastrous because a single Sejm member could veto the proceedings of a session.
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Apr 2, 2014 05:11
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Rogue0071 posted:In the PLC's case, this was particularly disastrous because a single Sejm member could veto the proceedings of a session. Well, ok, there was that too.
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Apr 2, 2014 05:21
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Rogue0071 posted:In the PLC's case, this was particularly disastrous because a single Sejm member could veto the proceedings of a session. Oh man, it's funny how much collusion happens between this thread and the Eastern Europe thread now, because I'm seeing why Russia keeps wanting to push this on Ukraine.
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Apr 2, 2014 08:21
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Volkerball posted:How soon we forget George Sr and his weird presidency. Not really, Netanyahu has more or less openly involved himself with American politics, and on the side of the Republicans every time. He even appointed some Frank Luntz acolyte as the new Israeli ambassador to the US. It would be nice if this sort of unconscionable meddling helped convinced Obama to apply the necessary pressure on the Likud government now that Kerry's negotiations are falling completely to pieces, but he just doesn't seem to care. Count Roland posted:hahaha, he has to apologize to Israel because he wasn't sucking up like he was supposed to. Not quite sure where you got that from, all I saw was an article detailing Christie apologizing to Adelson. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 10:00 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 09:55
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Sucrose posted:It's more to do with congruent world views. If the world view of the white supremacist is that foreigners/blacks/Muslims/whatever are vile parasites on their otherwise pure society, a black nationalist who wants to separate blacks and whites because they think it will protect blacks is bizarrely arguing for the same result as the white nationalist wanting to purge white society of non-whites. Their motives are likely quite different, but have both arrived at the same result; racial separation ideology, and are thus uneasy allies. Same thing with anti-Islam European nationalists and right-wing Israelis; the former may hate Jews in their own countries, but have no problem with and may even like a far-off Jewish state that takes a hard-line against unwanted minorities, because it buys into the same xenophobic, anti-minority ideology that they have. Ultra-nationalists have a vicious alternate ideology revolving around racial and ethnic separation that they'd like to propagate everywhere, not just in their home country, and often do not act with as blind of a hatred as they are assumed to. Instead it's a more calculating hatred. Sometimes. I just want to say this is extremely well put. The street level fascists here in Copenhagen put up stickers with a picture of a palestinian boy with a slingshot, and the caption "everyone deserves their own nation. Israel out of Palestine, Palestine out of Denmark" 
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Apr 2, 2014 12:27
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I've said before that an actual peace process is less likely than another 20 years of settlements which maintains the status quo, punctuated by violence from both sides. Today is a far cry from the 90's when there was basically open war at times between the two sides. I guess at this point the Palestinians are too broken and fractured to mount any real defense to continued settlements and further ghettoization of what's left of Palestinian land.
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Apr 2, 2014 14:14
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FlamingLiberal posted:I've said before that an actual peace process is less likely than another 20 years of settlements which maintains the status quo, punctuated by violence from both sides. Today is a far cry from the 90's when there was basically open war at times between the two sides. I guess at this point the Palestinians are too broken and fractured to mount any real defense to continued settlements and further ghettoization of what's left of Palestinian land. In a way, I'm impressed that Israel is getting away with it. They're total dicks, but you have to admire that sense of organization and ethnic cohesion. It's kind of like how a tiny white minority was able to rule all of Rhodesia. Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 14:20
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It's sheer, murderous ruthlessness. Even in the face of complete ostracism (which they are very far from), they will double down with nuclear weapons. There's no stopping that kind of mad fanaticism.
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Apr 2, 2014 14:52
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Plus as many have mentioned, the 'liberal' parties in Israel are severely marginalized, and there isn't major debate over Palestine since at this point no one is really opposing Israel's actions in any significant way
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Apr 2, 2014 15:01
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Three bombs went off near Cairo University today, killing one cop and injuring five others. Here's one of them going off just behind a newscaster- about 22 seconds in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1xk6mPDFBY
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Apr 2, 2014 16:18
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suboptimal posted:Three bombs went off near Cairo University today, killing one cop and injuring five others. Here's one of them going off just behind a newscaster- about 22 seconds in. Not just any cop, a brigadier general.
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Apr 2, 2014 17:36
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The Insect Court posted:Not quite sure where you got that from, all I saw was an article detailing Christie apologizing to Adelson. quote:While the story was intended to forge common cause with Adelson and the several hundred donors to the Republican Jewish Coalition to which Christie was speaking, his use of the term “occupied territories” set off murmurs in the crowd. He was sucking up to get Israeli/Jewish support, but because of his choice of language, had to apologize. I find it funny how servile he is.
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Apr 2, 2014 17:43
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Al-Saqr posted:Not just any cop, a brigadier general. Yeah, the guy who was in charge of the Criminal Investigation Department at the Giza Security Directorate. One of the other wounded was the deputy chief of Cairo's Security Directorate. This wasn't pissed-off students throwing pipe bombs into a crowd of cops, this is looking like another assassination by Ansar Beit al-Maqdis. On a lighter note, this is the Egyptian equivalent of a mic drop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRrL6ak7QEE
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Apr 2, 2014 18:11
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In the war of words between Google and Turkey over YouTube, it appears I'm to play a rolequote:Google marketing chief attacks 'very sad' YouTube and Twitter ban by Turkey
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Apr 2, 2014 19:56
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That last line is book jacket material.
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Apr 2, 2014 20:07
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JT Jag posted:That last line is book jacket material. I'm actually waiting for my agent to get back to me about publishers' responses to my book proposal as we speak, and hopefully I'll get at least one thumbs up as they are a top agency in the US.
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Apr 2, 2014 20:18
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Brown Moses posted:In the war of words between Google and Turkey over YouTube, it appears I'm to play a role gently caress, man. That's crazy. While you've obviously worked your butt off, doesn't it terrify everyone a little bit that we'd consider starting a war with intelligence that's not as good as a guy watching freely available online videos and using deductive reasoning? Definitely gives a troubling impression of military intelligence as something to base policy decisions on.
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Apr 2, 2014 20:28
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Cocoa Ninja posted:gently caress, man. That's crazy. While you've obviously worked your butt off, doesn't it terrify everyone a little bit that we'd consider starting a war with intelligence that's not as good as a guy watching freely available online videos and using deductive reasoning? Definitely gives a troubling impression of military intelligence as something to base policy decisions on. The difference (one difference) is that BM has no institutional pressure to deliver intelligence that strokes the right egos or tilts towards a certain outcome.
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Apr 2, 2014 20:32
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SedanChair posted:The difference (one difference) is that BM has no institutional pressure to deliver intelligence that strokes the right egos or tilts towards a certain outcome. Brings to mind the CIA written parody of Hunt for the Red October.
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Apr 2, 2014 20:40
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