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Cocoa Ninja posted:gently caress, man. That's crazy. While you've obviously worked your butt off, doesn't it terrify everyone a little bit that we'd consider starting a war with intelligence that's not as good as a guy watching freely available online videos and using deductive reasoning? Definitely gives a troubling impression of military intelligence as something to base policy decisions on. As I've met more people with links to the intelligence community, it's become increasingly clear the intelligence community isn't always very intelligent. Supposedly my work is discussed at very high levels in these communities, and based on my recent visit to Sweden to speak at SIPRI I now know I have some long time readers in very influential positions. I think part of the problem is just the machinery of those communities taking forever to pick up on new ideas, and I've pretty much popularised the use of open source information from social media as part of conflict analysis single-handedly, and I think there's probably a certain degree of snobbery involved in all this as well. I can't really discuss a lot of the stuff I do or people I meet, but I'm currently a very busy person meeting lots of people from all sorts of organisations at every level who know my work very well.
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Apr 2, 2014 20:41
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Brown Moses posted:As I've met more people with links to the intelligence community, it's become increasingly clear the intelligence community isn't always very intelligent. Supposedly my work is discussed at very high levels in these communities, and based on my recent visit to Sweden to speak at SIPRI I now know I have some long time readers in very influential positions. I think part of the problem is just the machinery of those communities taking forever to pick up on new ideas, and I've pretty much popularised the use of open source information from social media as part of conflict analysis single-handedly, and I think there's probably a certain degree of snobbery involved in all this as well. I can't really discuss a lot of the stuff I do or people I meet, but I'm currently a very busy person meeting lots of people from all sorts of organisations at every level who know my work very well. I'm sure institutional inertia and bureaucratic hand-wringing make intelligence agencies home to simultaneously some of the country's smartest patriots and at the same time most asinine rear end-kissers. So to be clear, I think what you're doing is clearly the way forward for a certain segment of intelligence gathering in the age of the smartphone. But it's also a good reminder that the people who operate at very high levels of policy are just as smart or stupid as anyone else. It helps chip away the illusion of the US and foreign governments are playing 4-dimensional chess, or whatever the metaphor was. And quick question for you BM: are you still planning on rolling out a new website? I've just been visiting your blogspot one. I don't really follow twitter.
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Apr 2, 2014 21:02
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The new website should hopefully come soon, it's really down to the designers to finish their work now, for my part at launch I'm doing a series of pieces of August 21st and a summary article for people who don't want to read huge pieces.
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Apr 2, 2014 21:20
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Brown Moses posted:but I'm currently a very busy person meeting lots of people from all sorts of organisations at every level who know my work very well. sorry for my ignorance, I havent been following what you do, are you planning on becoming someone who helps intelligence agencies do their job better or a reporter who plans on doing something similar to Glenn Greenwald? because the only thing I know about you from this thread and your blog online is that you look at (or gather) videos and go: "yep. that's a malaysian s-12 stinger missile all right, you could tell by the markings and serial numbers", or do you actually do reporting news and scoops online from sources on the ground? I dont mean to sound flippant, I'm just trying to understand what it is you do that's catching the eye of those types of officials.
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Apr 2, 2014 21:39
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Al-Saqr posted:sorry for my ignorance, I havent been following what you do, are you planning on becoming someone who helps intelligence agencies do their job better or a reporter who plans on doing something similar to Glenn Greenwald? because the only thing I know about you from this thread and your blog online is that you look at (or gather) videos and go: "yep. that's a malaysian s-12 stinger missile all right, you could tell by the markings and serial numbers", or do you actually do reporting news and scoops online from sources on the ground? Now I'm in the situation where there's a vast amount of interest in what I do from journalists and media organisations, so I'm being invited to speak at various journalism conferences, speak at universities, and visit newsrooms. I have a pretty large network of contacts, so I'm frequently contacted by journalists with questions, and if I can't answer them I usually know someone who can, so that makes me very useful to know as well. For example, on August 21st I got 40 journalists in contact with 4 chemical weapons experts for comments and quotes, which made 44 people very happy to know me. Because I'm seen as independent and at the cutting edge of this area, I get a lot of people from all sorts of organisations contacting me, so I'm in a very good position to network people together. I'm also working with NGOs on developing new platforms and projects for working with this material, including one major project with Google which I can't go into details about. There's only so much detail I can go into on those sorts of things though. The thing that amazes me is how new what I'm doing is to all these NGOs, government agencies, journalists, etc. Even the people who are switched onto this sort of stuff in those organisations rarely know actually how to do it, they just know which people are doing it. Among the media it's pretty much Storyful, and NGOs it's Human Rights Watch, both organisations I worked with on a regular basis in varying ways. It's a rapidly growing field, and I'm pretty much the biggest name in it, so I'm doing my best to take advantage of all the possibilities it presents me with. Beats the hell out of working in admin and finance.
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Apr 2, 2014 22:16
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Nigel Farage said some stupid stuff about August 21st during a TV debate tonight, so Dan Kaszeta has put forward a very detailed rebuttal.
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Apr 2, 2014 22:58
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Cocoa Ninja posted:gently caress, man. That's crazy. While you've obviously worked your butt off, doesn't it terrify everyone a little bit that we'd consider starting a war with intelligence that's not as good as a guy watching freely available online videos and using deductive reasoning? Definitely gives a troubling impression of military intelligence as something to base policy decisions on. As an Intelligence Analyst, I could rant about the numerous problems in the Intelligence community all day. The only thing that gives me any solace is that there are people in the community who work their asses off and are very good at their jobs. They just usually aren't the ones in a position to make an actual difference in terms of policy or preparations.
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Apr 3, 2014 03:54
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Bait and Swatch posted:As an Intelligence Analyst, I could rant about the numerous problems in the Intelligence community all day. The only thing that gives me any solace is that there are people in the community who work their asses off and are very good at their jobs. They just usually aren't the ones in a position to make an actual difference in terms of policy or preparations. That's what the Peter Principal does.
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Apr 3, 2014 03:56
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Dusseldorf posted:That's what the Peter Principal does. I see your point, but part of the problem is attempting to put people who are good "managers" into those positions. The problem is they oftentimes serve as an impediment to well reasoned and forward-looking assessments because seem to have an inclination to go with their opinions over the thoughts of a subject matter expert. This is one of the many reasons why you'll hear about some report that had accurate information and assessments that never made it out of a given agency. I'm not defending all analysts either, as plenty are inexperienced at best or worthless at worst. The drive to hire undergrads results in analysts with little real world experience in anything, let alone in-depth knowledge on the country or region they are responsible for. Most analysts become news reporters, as they lack the capability or courage to provide analysis or assessments to their leadership. It is an all around mess is what I am saying I guess.
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Apr 3, 2014 05:39
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Al-Saqr posted:sorry for my ignorance, I havent been following what you do, are you planning on becoming someone who helps intelligence agencies do their job better or a reporter who plans on doing something similar to Glenn Greenwald? because the only thing I know about you from this thread and your blog online is that you look at (or gather) videos and go: "yep. that's a malaysian s-12 stinger missile all right, you could tell by the markings and serial numbers", or do you actually do reporting news and scoops online from sources on the ground? There are many whithered kremlinologists who can tell you what shell belongs to what gun to what nation etc. If you want an analysis of A2/AD capabilities in the Straight of Hormuz based on open source information, it's easy to put together a brain trust and buy it some white papers. I don't want to be reductionist regarding what Brown Moses does, but I presume his contribution to western intelligence gathering will be how to vet/source social media videos and text (presumably with the help of politically acceptable collaborators with relevant language skills) in a way that generates actionable (i.e. "right-drat-now") intelligence. I would have to imagine that with this sort of intelligence there is the danger of the observer effect. Sinologists learned it from Weibo. Americans might remember Curveball. Ostensibly Brown Moses has managed to diminish this risk to the satisfaction of the western intelligence community. I do wonder however, as it becomes even more obvious that social media is under western eyes, will the job become even more daunting.
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Apr 3, 2014 05:50
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Cocoa Ninja posted:gently caress, man. That's crazy. While you've obviously worked your butt off, doesn't it terrify everyone a little bit that we'd consider starting a war with intelligence that's not as good as a guy watching freely available online videos and using deductive reasoning? Definitely gives a troubling impression of military intelligence as something to base policy decisions on. There was a good story in NPR today about a similar phenomenon involving prediction.
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Apr 3, 2014 05:53
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Tatum Girlparts posted:^^^It's mad ignorant to say 'republicans', there's a ton of Zionist leftwing factions and many of the Democratic strong supporting Jews fall into that faction. I don't think any ethnic nationalist colonial movement can ever be considered "left wing".
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Apr 3, 2014 06:11
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Muscle Tracer posted:There was a good story in NPR today about a similar phenomenon involving prediction. That is all kinds of crazy and awesome and...sad. To think the U.S. gov't is tossing billions towards various agencies and being outclassed by a bunch of people using simple web searches whose only harm in the process probably involves where their coffee is coming from. Then again, the CIA is notoriously lovely when it comes to human intelligence and such. Don't know how the DIA would stack up or the other gov't and private agencies. I'm really curious how other intel services in other countries compare to the project.
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Apr 3, 2014 06:15
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BM I just hope that whoever you collaborate with (an exciting range of NGOs like Children In Africa) you give us the goods at the same time you give it to them. Maybe even a 15 minute lead time? 
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Apr 3, 2014 06:24
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Brown Moses posted:Human Rights Watch has claimed American and French intelligence agencies told it that the evidence collected by Brown Moses from his armchair in Britain was more accurate than their own intelligence. But not good enough for the BBC 
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Apr 3, 2014 09:09
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BabyChoom posted:I don't think any ethnic nationalist colonial movement can ever be considered "left wing". This is a generalization that you're probably making for the right reasons, but it's still kind of wrong. Zionism had strong socialist currents, that were eventually crushed by the fuckbrain hard-right terror groups that made up Israels later leadership, but one can still find very left-wing sentiments among Israelis on a variety of issues.
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Apr 3, 2014 11:30
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Tias posted:This is a generalization that you're probably making for the right reasons, but it's still kind of wrong. Zionism had strong socialist currents, that were eventually crushed by the fuckbrain hard-right terror groups that made up Israels later leadership, but one can still find very left-wing sentiments among Israelis on a variety of issues. I'm sorry, but I find it really strange that some people think that any person who identifies as a Zionist or even a proud member of the Israeli state and armed forces can ever be put in the same bracket as a 'liberal' or a 'leftist', it's such a complete and total oxymoron when you look at the makeup of the Israeli state, it's objectives and outlook (that of a religiously fanatic, utterly racist, aparthedistic, warmongering group of colonists who have committed mass ethnic cleansing and regularly committed massacres, genocides, and invasions of everyone around them). It's not even possible to be considered a leftist because if you were you would have identified with the socialist leftist Palestinians and Arabs who you waged war against from the 40's to 80's when socialism faded away, if you were a leftist you'd have identified with internationalism and multiculturalism and not been a racist Zionist. If you were a liberal you would've marched against what your state has done and is doing to the Palestinians and not have actively destroyed them or actively refused to serve when the state attacked others, the Israeli 'leftist' is in no way shape or form a friend of the working people unless you're serving their racist goals. they only believe in the redistribution of wealth or greater government regulation if that would only serve their own aparthedistic ideology. They are in no way shape or form leftist or liberal, because they actively fight, contribute and protect an ideology that is totally anathema to all of those things. There's a huge difference between being a leftist or liberal and between being a different form of racist. Even if you went back and read the writings of those who identified themselves as 'socialist' you wouldnt be able to tell the difference between them and a crazed right wing racist, It's like saying that there was a left wing sentiment with some members of the south african National Party at their worst. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 11:56 on Apr 3, 2014 |
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Apr 3, 2014 11:53
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BabyChoom posted:I don't think any ethnic nationalist colonial movement can ever be considered "left wing". Now, let me tell you about Tibet.
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Apr 3, 2014 12:52
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Liberal, no, Leftist, possibly.
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Apr 3, 2014 13:20
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Zionism was certainly socialist at one point, while also explicitly nationalist. I think it would be accurate to say that they were National Socialists!
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Apr 3, 2014 14:18
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Al-Saqr posted:I'm sorry, but I find it really strange that some people think that any person who identifies as a Zionist or even a proud member of the Israeli state and armed forces can ever be put in the same bracket as a 'liberal' or a 'leftist', it's such a complete and total oxymoron when you look at the makeup of the Israeli state, it's objectives and outlook (that of a religiously fanatic, utterly racist, aparthedistic, warmongering group of colonists who have committed mass ethnic cleansing and regularly committed massacres, genocides, and invasions of everyone around them). It's not even possible to be considered a leftist because if you were you would have identified with the socialist leftist Palestinians and Arabs who you waged war against from the 40's to 80's when socialism faded away, if you were a leftist you'd have identified with internationalism and multiculturalism and not been a racist Zionist. If you were a liberal you would've marched against what your state has done and is doing to the Palestinians and not have actively destroyed them or actively refused to serve when the state attacked others, the Israeli 'leftist' is in no way shape or form a friend of the working people unless you're serving their racist goals. they only believe in the redistribution of wealth or greater government regulation if that would only serve their own aparthedistic ideology. They are in no way shape or form leftist or liberal, because they actively fight, contribute and protect an ideology that is totally anathema to all of those things. There's a huge difference between being a leftist or liberal and between being a different form of racist. Racists and colonialists have in the past often been described as leftist, like Stalin, which makes leftism a very ambigious concept.
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Apr 3, 2014 17:30
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Lead Psychiatry posted:That is all kinds of crazy and awesome and...sad. To think the U.S. gov't is tossing billions towards various agencies and being outclassed by a bunch of people using simple web searches whose only harm in the process probably involves where their coffee is coming from. Actually it looks like people are just failing to understand basic statistics- given a large enough group you'll always find someone in it who is making "correct" predictions simply by random chance alone. It's hard to tell what they are actually doing but at first glance they are making incredibly basic mistakes in that article. Given 3000 people it's not shocking at all some are doing 30% better than the "intelligence community" because you would expect this to happen even if they had no predictive ability whatsoever. A similar thing actually occurred and probably contributed to the financial crisis. The managers in charge in 2008 were people who did extremely well in the previous decades. But doing well doesn't actually mean you know anything- again by random chance in a very large group some will do very poorly and some will do extremely well, by random chance alone. And since the people who do extremely well (and extremely poorly) are the ones who take the greatest risk, it led to the people in charge being huge risk takers who thought they were smart rather than just being lucky. This is a basic statistics principle (the type 1 error rate). This problem comes up a ton, particularly now that people are blindly doing data mining without understanding what is really happening. enbot fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Apr 3, 2014 |
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Apr 3, 2014 20:35
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hypnorotic posted:Zionism was certainly socialist at one point, while also explicitly nationalist. I think it would be accurate to say that they were National Socialists!
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Apr 3, 2014 20:41
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Al-Saqr posted:I'm sorry, but I find it really strange that some people think that any person who identifies as a Zionist or even a proud member of the Israeli state and armed forces can ever be put in the same bracket as a 'liberal' or a 'leftist', it's such a complete and total oxymoron when you look at the makeup of the Israeli state, it's objectives and outlook (that of a religiously fanatic, utterly racist, aparthedistic, warmongering group of colonists who have committed mass ethnic cleansing and regularly committed massacres, genocides, and invasions of everyone around them). It's not even possible to be considered a leftist because if you were you would have identified with the socialist leftist Palestinians and Arabs who you waged war against from the 40's to 80's when socialism faded away, if you were a leftist you'd have identified with internationalism and multiculturalism and not been a racist Zionist. If you were a liberal you would've marched against what your state has done and is doing to the Palestinians and not have actively destroyed them or actively refused to serve when the state attacked others, the Israeli 'leftist' is in no way shape or form a friend of the working people unless you're serving their racist goals. they only believe in the redistribution of wealth or greater government regulation if that would only serve their own aparthedistic ideology. They are in no way shape or form leftist or liberal, because they actively fight, contribute and protect an ideology that is totally anathema to all of those things. There's a huge difference between being a leftist or liberal and between being a different form of racist. I always liked what Chomsky said about his parents. "They were what they would have called Zionists, who now would be called anti-Zionists."
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Apr 3, 2014 21:30
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Not so much the statistics for individuals that wowed me as it was the "wisdom of the group" aspect of the project. It ended up reminding me I never bothered to read the Nate Silver book or really into anything behind the aggregation of data. Which I really should try and get to within the next month cause that NPR piece left me with all sorts of questions. Actually, would Signal and The Noise be an appropriate read for this sort of thing or is it off the mark?
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Apr 3, 2014 22:34
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enbot posted:Actually it looks like people are just failing to understand basic statistics- given a large enough group you'll always find someone in it who is making "correct" predictions simply by random chance alone. It's hard to tell what they are actually doing but at first glance they are making incredibly basic mistakes in that article. Given 3000 people it's not shocking at all some are doing 30% better than the "intelligence community" because you would expect this to happen even if they had no predictive ability whatsoever. Yep. There's also an interesting scam based on this principle. quote:An old horse-racing tipster scam takes the following elegant form: send predictions about the winner in a 10-horse race to 10,000 people, with 10 different predictions, each sent to 1,000 people. After the race, focus on the 1,000 who received a successful prediction and send each of them a prediction of the winner in another 10-horse race; again, 10 different predictions, equally spread. After the second race, 100 people will have received two successive winning predictions and will be unaware of the 9,900 who have not. As a final flourish, forecast another 10-horse race and you will have 10 people, each of whom has received 10 successive correct forecasts against substantial odds. Then simply write to each of them and ask for a few thousand pounds in exchange for your next three tips... UK readers may remember when magician Derren Brown pulled this same trick, some years ago.
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Apr 3, 2014 22:53
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The lawsuit by the family of Anwar Al-Awlaki and his teenage son was dismissed in federal court. The judge cited the AUMF as legitimate justification for the military's action in his killing, which I found interesting. Granted this case had virtually no chance since it was suing Leon Panetta and other military/intel officials, which almost always get thrown out. But it's still disturbing that the government can murder a US citizen without charge or trial and get away with it. http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/national/2014/04/judge_dismisses_lawsuit_over_drone_strikes
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Apr 4, 2014 23:27
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Al-Saqr posted:I'm sorry, but I find it really strange that some people think that any person who identifies as a Zionist or even a proud member of the Israeli state and armed forces can ever be put in the same bracket as a 'liberal' or a 'leftist', it's such a complete and total oxymoron when you look at the makeup of the Israeli state, it's objectives and outlook (that of a religiously fanatic, utterly racist, aparthedistic, warmongering group of colonists who have committed mass ethnic cleansing and regularly committed massacres, genocides, and invasions of everyone around them). It's not even possible to be considered a leftist because if you were you would have identified with the socialist leftist Palestinians and Arabs who you waged war against from the 40's to 80's when socialism faded away, if you were a leftist you'd have identified with internationalism and multiculturalism and not been a racist Zionist. If you were a liberal you would've marched against what your state has done and is doing to the Palestinians and not have actively destroyed them or actively refused to serve when the state attacked others, the Israeli 'leftist' is in no way shape or form a friend of the working people unless you're serving their racist goals. they only believe in the redistribution of wealth or greater government regulation if that would only serve their own aparthedistic ideology. They are in no way shape or form leftist or liberal, because they actively fight, contribute and protect an ideology that is totally anathema to all of those things. There's a huge difference between being a leftist or liberal and between being a different form of racist. Leaving aside your fairly hilarious description of the Israeli state, you have a really funny idea of what a leftist is if you think that being racist is any kind of disqualification of being a leftist. Leftist and anarchist militias in revolutionary Russia would target "foreign" settlements for looting and destruction, labour unions in the United States often clashed with black scabs, the entire Great Society was passed by making deals with Southern racists, and leftist organizations in Palestine are often virulently anti-Semitic. Leftist is not, and should not be, a synonym for good person.
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Apr 5, 2014 01:23
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PleasingFungus posted:
Darren Brown is a very interesting entertainer. I took a neuro-linguistic programming class a few years back and got hooked after seeing his video with the red BMX.
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Apr 5, 2014 04:19
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Bait and Swatch posted:Darren Brown is a very interesting entertainer. I took a neuro-linguistic programming class a few years back and got hooked after seeing his video with the red BMX. This pretty off topic, but this is one of the things about Derren Brown that I really don't like. You got fooled by him, and not in a benign way like you would be with other magicians. You bought into his magical explanation and spent money, time and effort because you believed in it. It's really irresponsible of him to go around making people believe in NLP.
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Apr 5, 2014 05:46
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Dr. Stab posted:This pretty off topic, but this is one of the things about Derren Brown that I really don't like. You got fooled by him, and not in a benign way like you would be with other magicians. You bought into his magical explanation and spent money, time and effort because you believed in it. It's really irresponsible of him to go around making people believe in NLP. Well the government spent money since the Army was providing the class. It was for interrogators but I was able to get into an unfilled slot. It was interesting, if a bit hokey. To get back on topic, is there anything implicating the SAA in the recent chemical attack (believe it was in Jormund) I definitely don't buy the "We told the UN so obviously it was the rebels" defense. Especially since there was a supposed ground offensive there today.
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Apr 5, 2014 06:18
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Bait and Swatch posted:To get back on topic, is there anything implicating the SAA in the recent chemical attack (believe it was in Jormund) I definitely don't buy the "We told the UN so obviously it was the rebels" defense. Especially since there was a supposed ground offensive there today. Yeah, it was allegedly in Jobar. I haven't seen any real corroboration, but there's allegations every few weeks of some small-scale attack or another. There's always a slight chance the SAA just throws in a chemical shell or something once in a while during heavy fighting, but I don't know. The SAA has been assaulting Mileha and Jobar steadily for the past three days without success, which appears to be part of a coordinated push to take back Damascus' bastions of resistance. In other news, the rebels have once again taken control of Tower 45 in Latakia. That they've been able to hold their land in Latakia for this long is fairly impressive. edit: The SAA has apparently launched "Operation Gates of Hell" (Bawwabat Jahanem) in E. Ghouta, according to a pro-regime activist. MothraAttack fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Apr 5, 2014 |
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Apr 5, 2014 07:53
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 Is it normal for tanks to have these dashcams or is it something unique for Syrian tanks to make nice propaganda bits?
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Apr 5, 2014 11:52
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Zudgemud posted:
I like how the force from the barrel blows the hood off the APC in front of it, and then the gunner and driver have the coordinated skill to just go and nudge everything back into place with the tank's barrel.
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Apr 5, 2014 12:00
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Zudgemud posted:
I'm pretty sure that these are GoPros that individual tank commanders are putting on their vehicles, same as US and other soldiers have been doing Afghanistan and Iraq ever since quality affordable small cameras have been around. LimburgLimbo fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Apr 5, 2014 |
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Apr 5, 2014 12:12
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LimburgLimbo posted:I'm pretty sure that these are GoPros that individual tank commanders are putting on their vehicles, same as US and other soldiers have been doing Afghanistan and Iraq every since quality affordable small cameras have been around. Actually, they're mounted by the Abkhazian News Network Agency (or ANNA news). It's a group of Russian journalists that have been embedded with these tankers for months, if not close to a year. Lots more of these videos here: https://www.youtube.com/user/newsanna/videos
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Apr 5, 2014 12:56
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Muffiner posted:I like how the force from the barrel blows the hood off the APC in front of it, and then the gunner and driver have the coordinated skill to just go and nudge everything back into place with the tank's barrel. Hey, it's important to be polite among other fighting comrades. I find it funny that the last bit is the fording trim vane on the BMP. That thing is pretty much useless in the environment they're in.
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Apr 5, 2014 12:57
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Storyful managed to find one ANNA News video showing a tank being destroyed, which was also filmed by the rebels https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn1NWU3nGQc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxm2bbU9V1M The ANNA News footage has been very useful for me, I've used it to figure out all the frontline positions from August 21st by the doing maps like this and this
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Apr 5, 2014 15:33
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I read an interesting new article about rebel gains in Latakia. Apparently there's been an intense media campaign about a massacre of Armenians in the town of Kessab, which (according to this article) never happened. Footage from the massacre is used as propaganda, but the footage turns out to be from a massacre in Aleppo in December 2013. Also, the capture of Kessab and the adjecent coastal area was led primarily by Chechen groups, and the primary target might have been a Russian radar.
Pieter Pan fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Apr 5, 2014 |
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Apr 5, 2014 16:02
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Pieter posted:I read an interesting new article about rebel gains in Latakia. Apparently there's been an intense media campaign about a massacre of Armenians in the town of Kessab, which (according to this article) never happened. Footage from the massacre is used as propaganda, but the footage turns out to be from a massacre in Aleppo in December 2013. Also, the capture of Kessab and the adjecent coastal area was led primarily by Chechen groups, and the primary target might have been a Russian radar. Other images included a picture of a woman with a cross shoved in her throat from a bad horror movie, and the child decapitated by an air strike in Aleppo.
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Apr 5, 2014 16:15
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