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Champions seems to be going to Ermor Dueltown again, I would just like to remind people that we've been there before and it doesn't go well for anyone involved so where the gently caress are the other two guys.
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Apr 21, 2014 12:53
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OK let me rephrase my question to get a different set of completely different answers: How would you want Dominions to play differently to how it does now? Because I mainly agree with TheDemon that people are just pointing out problems, rather than saying how they want things to play - for me, the thing I like best about Dominions is probably the national troop/mage combat (although this could be better balanced) with clever scripting, and I agree that domes should be more available to make the strategic map a more proactive place. You might like something else, though. With the kinda-uncontroversial Blood Sabbath needing a change thing, I'm thinking of just making it a non-slave-requiring 20 fatigue affair, because keeping the slave cost but having some kind of #nextspell that gives full reinvigoration means you could chain up people to join as it for at least five rounds and keep the 'main' mages who'd otherwise have to cast reinvigoration doing something else, so gently caress that. Opinions? AtomikKrab posted:I approve of modpuds decision to make dragons domscore 3, this eliminates DRAGON THUNDERDOME which every disciple game became.
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Apr 21, 2014 14:38
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I'd like a little tickbox option that says "Stick to the script" and forces the commander to actually do what you tell them to. edit - Just got this while messing around in single player: 
goatface fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Apr 21, 2014 |
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Apr 21, 2014 14:41
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jBrereton posted:OK let me rephrase my question to get a different set of completely different answers: I find myself enjoying the early and mid game of dominions immensely but then the late game becomes tedious and frustrating because 90% of troops and commanders cease to matter and certain battle magic combos take over. This will have to happen eventually but the process isn't very gradual--depending on the paths available, once a nation reaches certain research milestones, all they need are undifferentiated chaff and the tactics/troop compositions become effectively irrelevant overnight. That is to say, the spell power curve could be a hell of a lot smoother. I think the way dom4 mechanics have sort of nerfed many of the summonable thugs has made nations with a good thug chasis disproportionately favored in MP. And like nearly everyone else, I think Burden of Time/Astral Corruption are bullshit globals that work as an "I win" button against certain nations, so moving them up and/or making them harder to cast would be good.
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Apr 21, 2014 15:40
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TheDemon posted:Please do not wreck the order gold % any further. The issue with scales is they don't differentiate enough. If you have a bunch of scales all with very tiny gold % bonuses that just makes the problem worse: now everyone will take ALL of the gold scales and builds that don't won't exist anymore. Yeah, I think the thing is that gold is just too useful. You don't need magic scales for research, just buy more mages. You don't need production scales for resources, just buy more forts. I don't think it's something that can be easily changed by adjusting the scales. TheDemon posted:Likewise, doing stuff like increasing protection will make the game suffer quite badly; they already counter low damage troops nicely, but the real problem is that even small increases in protection scale much greater than the stats appear. Once you're out of reasonable explosion range (or out of regular roll range against damage spells) then you're basically invincible and reasonable counters do not exist in proportions that are adequately distributed amongst nations. Simply put, you'll end up with situations where a nation with the right troops will roll 75% of their opposition and get wrecked completely by the remaining 25%. What we have right now is less binary. That's also why solutions to the prot issue tend to target the encumbrance and crit factors rather than increasing protection. That's fair, I suppose. Not everyone gets air mages and crossbows. Admittedly I was thinking more about thugs and giant enemies that can't really rely on their defense than rank-and-file infantry that are going to show up in huge numbers. jBrereton posted:OK let me rephrase my question to get a different set of completely different answers: Well if that's your question, Smerdyakov really hit the nail on the head with certain battlemagic making everything else redundant. Beyond that, I still stand by my point about stupid "gotcha" spells that break all the usual combat rules being unfun and a major pain to balance.
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Apr 21, 2014 16:16
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Neruz posted:Champions seems to be going to Ermor Dueltown again, I would just like to remind people that we've been there before and it doesn't go well for anyone involved so where the gently caress are the other two guys. I will upload a pretender today. There was no port number before so
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Apr 21, 2014 16:23
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I just want to post a few things because I feel like people don't understand certain balance features of the game: 1. Save or die spells are totally and completely necessary to maintaining the balance and integrity of the game. They should be situational and/or high on the research tree for the most part, though magic duel as a fairly low-level serves a really important purpose and outside the issue of pretender chassis is a good and reasonable spell. 2. BoT and Astral Corruption are both important spells and "gently caress the World" needs to be an important strat layer unless everything goes back to the awesome-endgame levels of over-the-top summons and arbitrarily large magic paths because otherwise closing out the game becomes tedious as hell. The problem with BoT is simply that it is too low level and hits the board before people can properly respond to it or counter it. At Thaum 7 or so and a higher gem cost it would be fine. Astral Corruption is likewise a fine spell and a signature blood ability and already very high research. If blood can cast AC they could have simply been summoning tons and tons of demons so it seems like a pretty silly thing to complain about unless your actual complaint is "blood has a good endgame". 3. I'm not sure I agree with the spell power curve complaints. The entire game is a system of hard counters, and it doesn't really feel to me like the high level "hard counters" are any more dramatic than the lower level ones - there's just more at stake at this point. The first time you roll in with storm + tstrike, you're going to kill absolutely every last thing the enemy has until they counter it. Same with Rigor Mortis, same with any number of other big tiers of magic. It's just that when someone hits LvL 8 in a path and brings a huge spell to a fight, it's going to kill not just a huge wall of spearmen but a bunch of elite troops and mages that are suddenly pretty garbage in comparison. I guess the complaint focuses more on how useless high-end magic makes troops seem. But that, thematically, is sort of the point of the game (especially the endgame). Eventually these rampaging wizards and gods make all the regular mortals interchangeably useful as they ruin the entire battlefield/world at once. The only way I see to really smooth this over would be to make mid-level summons more robust.
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Apr 21, 2014 16:41
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I guess the one thing about Astral Corruption (by the time you get a blood economy to cast it) and BoT (for Lemuria and Ermor) is that if you can afford it in the first place, you could reliably recast it or strengthen it to the point where it's nigh impossible to dispel it.
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Apr 21, 2014 19:44
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My problem with BoT is that is shits on human nations in particular. (and Abysia obviously)
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Apr 21, 2014 21:48
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If there was a way to gauge how many gems you needed for dispel, or even a percentage chance, then that would help with BoT like spells. As is it is a total crap shoot with nothing to gain but potentially loads of gems flushed away.
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Apr 21, 2014 22:05
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Decrepus posted:My problem with BoT is that is shits on human nations in particular. Won't people think of the fire mans BoT also dicks over some nations who only have old as dirt Mage options.
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Apr 21, 2014 22:30
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Anticheese posted:Is anybody keen on starting up a newbie game? If you start it up, I'm sure you'll have plenty of newbies willing to jump in. Especially those who just lost because they can do poo poo all to a stupid 100 stealth titan sitting on their cap! 
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Apr 21, 2014 23:05
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Gaghskull posted:If you start it up, I'm sure you'll have plenty of newbies willing to jump in. Especially those who just lost because they can do poo poo all to a stupid 100 stealth titan sitting on their cap! I'll join as well. I'm starting to get this game and having a second one going (since I'm pretty sure infinity cup is never coming back) will be fun.
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Apr 21, 2014 23:43
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Turin Turambar posted:Well, if all the veterans seems to agree that Order+3 is almost essential, maybe then Order is too good and it needs a nerf. There shouldn't be a scale that is clearly better than the others. Make Turmoil give unrest reduction (people are used to a bit of chaos), and make Order have the unrest penalty (people pay their taxes, dammit!). It still wouldn't equalise things but I like the idea.
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Apr 21, 2014 23:50
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Something more polemic: lower the research costs of level 8-9 magic a bit. Don't reach the levels of Dom 3, but in Dom4 unless you play a super big map or the players don't know what they are doing (like not going to the enemy's jugular when they should), the winner is decided (>65% of the map in hands of a player) when you reach level 6 in a few paths, maybe level 7 in only a few games. Unless it's turtle player vs turtle player, you won't ever see level 9 spells/summons. I understand it was too much in Dom3 and that's why it was nerfed, to make national armies matter. But... maybe they went a bit too far?
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Apr 21, 2014 23:56
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scalded schlong posted:Make Turmoil give unrest reduction (people are used to a bit of chaos), and make Order have the unrest penalty (people pay their taxes, dammit!). It still wouldn't equalise things but I like the idea. Increase the effects of luck/misfortune. Law/turmoil are fine as they are. People should not be getting positive effects while gaining points.
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Apr 22, 2014 00:02
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    dont script your poo poo like a dumb poo poo retard also don't forget to pd a province your dumb rainbow pretender is site searching in or give him bodyguards basically don't do what i do Kitfox88 fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Apr 22, 2014 |
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Apr 22, 2014 00:26
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So to find that Pretender by patrolling, you need ~140 troops for a 50% chance of finding him (I think). That's a hell of an investment.
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Apr 22, 2014 00:44
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goatface posted:So to find that Pretender by patrolling, you need ~140 troops for a 50% chance of finding him (I think). That's a hell of an investment. It's 100 troops for 50%, at least according to the documentation. Stealth of x means x troops for 50% find rate.
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Apr 22, 2014 01:19
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Of course, if he's using it against Abysia their troops have low precision and low AP so they don't count as a full troop.
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Apr 22, 2014 01:39
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Excelsiortothemax posted:If there was a way to gauge how many gems you needed for dispel, or even a percentage chance, then that would help with BoT like spells. As is it is a total crap shoot with nothing to gain but potentially loads of gems flushed away. This is very rarely going to help, but for the few cases where it can: a caster can not put more total gems into a spell than they have skill in the primary path times one hundred. So if you somehow know that the caster of Astral Corruption was just high enough to cast it, then the max he could have put in was 600 gems, and the total extra gems over the cost was 600-166=434 gems. If you put in more than 434 extra gems into the dispel you absolutely have a chance at it, and if you give yourself some wiggle room you can almost guarantee a dispel. It sounds silly, 434 gems is a lot, but the rule scales all the way up or down, and it might just guarantee a dispel one day
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Apr 22, 2014 01:39
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Right, because stealth has a base value of 0 that is actually 40.
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Apr 22, 2014 01:41
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Kitfox88 posted:dont script your poo poo like a dumb poo poo retard Or script retreat...
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Apr 22, 2014 01:51
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Decrepus posted:Or script retreat... Eek a spider!
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Apr 22, 2014 02:04
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goatface posted:Right, because stealth has a base value of 0 that is actually 40. So that PG has Stealth 60 scripting-wise.
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Apr 22, 2014 02:04
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Excelsiortothemax posted:I'll join as well. I'm starting to get this game and having a second one going (since I'm pretty sure infinity cup is never coming back) will be fun. I would join as well, while I have joined some big kids games so far I feel outclassed, and would love to play with my peers.
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Apr 22, 2014 02:16
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I Love You! posted:1. Save or die spells are totally and completely necessary to maintaining the balance and integrity of the game. They should be situational and/or high on the research tree for the most part, though magic duel as a fairly low-level serves a really important purpose and outside the issue of pretender chassis is a good and reasonable spell. What "totally and completely necessary" function do they have, and why can't you use a less-frustrating and gamey mechanic to do the same thing? Also, I want you to really think about Magic Duel for a second. You aren't going to use it against weak mages because they aren't worth the cost and risk. You're only going to use it on powerful astral mages (aka make them way too easy to kill) or on stronger enemies (not just pretenders) that just happen to have a little astral magic, which probably weren't that dangerous to begin with and didn't need to be taken down a peg. Nothing about it is balanced at all. I Love You! posted:2. BoT and Astral Corruption are both important spells and "gently caress the World" needs to be an important strat layer unless everything goes back to the awesome-endgame levels of over-the-top summons and arbitrarily large magic paths because otherwise closing out the game becomes tedious as hell. The problem with BoT is simply that it is too low level and hits the board before people can properly respond to it or counter it. At Thaum 7 or so and a higher gem cost it would be fine. Astral Corruption is likewise a fine spell and a signature blood ability and already very high research. If blood can cast AC they could have simply been summoning tons and tons of demons so it seems like a pretty silly thing to complain about unless your actual complaint is "blood has a good endgame". This is actually fairly reasonable. It's a bit like Modern Armor in Civ4 being able to overpower almost anything, at the cost of coming like 3 techs before the end of the game. "Tie-breakers" are a valid concept. I Love You! posted:3. I'm not sure I agree with the spell power curve complaints...It's just that when someone hits LvL 8 in a path and brings a huge spell to a fight, it's going to kill not just a huge wall of spearmen but a bunch of elite troops and mages that are suddenly pretty garbage in comparison. You just answered your own question. I Love You! posted:I guess the complaint focuses more on how useless high-end magic makes troops seem. But that, thematically, is sort of the point of the game (especially the endgame). Eventually these rampaging wizards and gods make all the regular mortals interchangeably useful as they ruin the entire battlefield/world at once. The only way I see to really smooth this over would be to make mid-level summons more robust. Thematic or not (and I don't know why you think it is, aside from the game currently being balanced that way), it makes for lovely gameplay. Let me put it this way, which of these two countries sound more fun to play; 1. A human nation that fields large numbers of longbowmen, guarded by medium infantry and flanked by a squad of elite heavy cavalry, all supported by air and nature mages with buffs and damage spells. 2. A human nation that almost entirely uses longbowmen with the Flaming Arrows spell, because it's the only viable tactic. They only use the crappiest possible infantry as a shield, because their only purpose is to be cannon fodder and there's no point in using anything better because it'll die to enemy magic just as quickly. You can have magic be powerful and awe-inspiring without having it obviate 90% of the rest of the game.
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Apr 22, 2014 02:20
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Regarding the theorycraft chat for game changes: One scale differentiation that I would love to see would be production rescaled to give reduced upkeep costs instead of an income bonus. It feels correct flavor-wise (gotta pay lazy dudes extra to stay loyal) and gives some interesting options for different nations to play the long game on upkeep value. I'd also like to see the research items moved out of const 6 and into const 4, with maybe more of them created in general. While I like the new research pace I feel like spending gems and early rp to increase your research curve would also open up some strategic diversification. On top of that, const 6 comes out so freaking late that I feel like those items have lost a lot of their value.
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Apr 22, 2014 02:29
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Jabarto posted:What "totally and completely necessary" function do they have, and why can't you use a less-frustrating and gamey mechanic to do the same thing? Also, I want you to really think about Magic Duel for a second. You aren't going to use it against weak mages because they aren't worth the cost and risk. You're only going to use it on powerful astral mages (aka make them way too easy to kill) or on stronger enemies (not just pretenders) that just happen to have a little astral magic, which probably weren't that dangerous to begin with and didn't need to be taken down a peg. Nothing about it is balanced at all. Thugs and/or SCs will beat anything else in a fight once they're properly geared. They can be so strong that the chance of them getting killed or even hit by anything else is effectively 0. So if there aren't spells that just plain murder a unit, then you just have a different uncounterable thing that happens to be more mobile and versatile and works against everything. Single-target instakill spells are only for dealing with SCs (not talking about magic duel here) and only useful in that specific niche. And magic duel is mostly used against mid-level mages. Specifically dudes who are likely to be communion masters and/or throw down big astral combat buffs. It's never going to be used against super powerful astral mages because it won't work. But I'm really not going to defend magic duel all that much because I would like to see a better solution for what it tries to do put in place. Jabarto posted:Thematic or not (and I don't know why you think it is, aside from the game currently being balanced that way), it makes for lovely gameplay. Let me put it this way, which of these two countries sound more fun to play; That first army would annihilate the second one. Your air mages cast storm (which is about the same research tier as flaming arrows and in a more useful tree) and blow them the gently caress up while ruining their ability to shoot. Versatile armies are much better than one-dimensional armies. You're just refusing to think outside the box of your national recruits and a lack of any scripting whatsoever. Add in some flying summon with your air mages to ruin the archer scripting. Throw down air spells to reduce the range of the archers and/or shield from the arrows. Cast mass flight on your army and slaughter everything they have at once. Your hypothetical situation is two awful players throwing garbage against each other and is not how the game plays out in a situation between competent players. I Love You! fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Apr 22, 2014 |
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Apr 22, 2014 02:33
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dis astranagant posted:Of course, if he's using it against Abysia their troops have low precision and low AP so they don't count as a full troop. Which is why I was so angry. Because there's gently caress all I could do about it!
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Apr 22, 2014 02:37
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dis astranagant posted:Of course, if he's using it against Abysia their troops have low precision and low AP so they don't count as a full troop. jBrereton fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Apr 22, 2014 |
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Apr 22, 2014 02:38
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Jabarto posted:What "totally and completely necessary" function do they have, and why can't you use a less-frustrating and gamey mechanic to do the same thing? Also, I want you to really think about Magic Duel for a second. You aren't going to use it against weak mages because they aren't worth the cost and risk. You're only going to use it on powerful astral mages (aka make them way too easy to kill) or on stronger enemies (not just pretenders) that just happen to have a little astral magic, which probably weren't that dangerous to begin with and didn't need to be taken down a peg. Nothing about it is balanced at all. I'm currently in a game as Bandar Log fighting Pythium. I've mostly used Magic Duel on my 60G S1 Yogis to take out Pythium's 215G A1W1S2 Theurgs. Even at a 2:1 loss ratio (it's not quite that bad actually, iirc), I'm making strong gains on an attrition strategy this way. Magic Duel is a good spell. If you're going to take a pretender with S, you just have to take really high S. With the Ring of Sorcery being S7 now, that's what you want anyway.
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Apr 22, 2014 02:47
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brainwrinkle posted:I'm currently in a game as Bandar Log fighting Pythium. I've mostly used Magic Duel on my 60G S1 Yogis to take out Pythium's 215G A1W1S2 Theurgs. Even at a 2:1 loss ratio (it's not quite that bad actually, iirc), I'm making strong gains on an attrition strategy this way. I got wrecked in my first game as EA abysia because my only source of magic diversity was a bunch of cap-only S1 warlocks who EA Kailasa happily traded for their build-anywhere yogis using magic duel. The asymmetry of this game is really difficult to quantify and sometimes spells like magic duel really matter a lot. Kailasa was struggling against me in their own way because I was dumping a falling fires caster out of every castle while he could only make more communion slaves, and big monkey communions really-really-really don't like fire storm. Keeping my bloodmage communions out of the battle stopped me from mixing up my strategies and eventually gave him an edge since I had the mages but could not replace my infantry at the same rate he did (didn't matter that his were poo poo and mine were good, since everything was evo fodder at this point). And the reason my fire mages weren't just auto-winning everything? An F9 fire dragon pretender (ouch)
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Apr 22, 2014 03:05
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Hmm, complex questions. I basically look at how Dominions is played right now. Right now there's basically a tiered progression: you start with national troops from the cap, then you have national troops from all forts, then you hit your first battlemagic target, then you have several battlemagic options, then you hit battlefield troop buffs & debuffs which make national troops resilient against battlemagic, then you hit troop summons that obsolete some national troops. In the background you are also unlocking secondary strategies like thug availability, income and defensive globals, sitesearching, mobility, tarts, etc. I think the tiered progression is good, but also that in different metagames there are different progressions. In EDM/CBM/AE meta we went from battlemagic to heavy thugs & SCs to summoned troops with troop buffs supplemented by SCs. The progression still existed, it was just different. Now let's say, for example, that you want early game summons to be more frequently used as a main strategy. That means it has to fit into the progression system in some way that's equal, or has significant advantages and disadvantages to, first battlemagic. Or it replaces first battlemagic entirely. The other issue is figuring out how much lower tiers should be relevant to upper tiers. The idea that troops shouldn't evaporate to battlemagic is basically this. But you pretty much immediately run into problems of scale. If a knight can resist one Thunder Strike, then two will kill him. If he can resist two, then three will do. Economics place a limit on how many strikes and targets each side can bring, but there are so many different ways to obtain a Thunder Strike that it becomes very difficult to properly evaluate what it should be worth instead of a Knight. If a nation has 400g A3/A4 mages, and another has 260g A3 mages, and another has 140g A1 S1 mages, and another has 45g knights, and another has 50g knights with 150% hitpoints, and another has 30g knights, how do you balance the damage of Thunder Strike to the cost of the mages and their targets? Not even mentioning time value of gold, or of resources. Separation between the tiers makes this issue moot, which is largely what we have now. I think, before moving on tier balancing, you need to make sure different nations or different paths or different research trees start on a somewhat more equal footing. Trying to move power tiers closer together first, then adjusting the nations and paths to follow is going to be more impossible. This kind of balancing needs to start at troop and mage gold and resource cost (and stats), and go outwards from there. There are other factors: Dominions has some very important elements of escalation and soft counters. Early-game summons are a clear example of escalation; in an ideal world you want to save your gems and your mage-time for higher-level spells and research, but you are sometimes forced to escalate and spend them now for extra bulk or firepower in an early conflict. Deploying lab mages in the midgame is another example. Soft counters is the idea that enemy tactics are reduced in effectiveness by counterplay, rather than being stopped entirely. A good soft counter system allows quantity to overwhelm quality, or for stat buffs to turn a fight. This is even more prevalent in Dom4 than Dom3, given examples like the new resist system cannot confer immunity, or Darkness is a stat decrease rather than percentage decrease. Examples: Flaming Arrows won't do much against high-prot troops, but it will add some damage. Storm can be accounted for in part by casting Wind Guide. MR makes it less likely to save or die, but it can still happen. When adjusting soft counters, you have to be careful that the adjustment is small or one side of the counter will cease to be entirely. In Dominions there are some soft counters that are scaled up so extremely that they're basically hard counters. Thunder Strike is a great example. But have you ever tried t-strike vs say, Ashdod giant sacreds? It's still effective, but decidedly less so. That tells me it's in the soft counter + adjustment category, rather than the hard counter category. That's not to say Dom4 doesn't have hard counters too, but they're rarer. Magic Duel, Solar Brilliance, severing astral cords vs Mind Hunt, just as examples. I don't really have an opinion on in what ways hard counters are necessary or unnecessary. I think the idea of tier progression, the idea of escalation, the idea of soft counters, are a few of the factors key to the Dominions experience. Jabarto posted:Thematic or not (and I don't know why you think it is, aside from the game currently being balanced that way), it makes for lovely gameplay. Let me put it this way, which of these two countries sound more fun to play; The problem with 1. is that it doesn't have any flexibility to it. If you have all these things, you win the battle. If you don't, you open vulnerabilities. The game becomes about assembling puzzle pieces, and then once you have them, scaling up. I've played strategy games like that, but they aren't Dominions. The problem with 2. is that, again, it doesn't have any flexibility to it. You have the one thing and it wins the battle, or it gets countered and loses the battle. I get that this situation can exist in Dom4 gameplay right now, but in that case the objective of modding should be to add flexibility. My preferred set of examples might be something like: 1. A human nation that fields heavy calvary flankers, supported by nature mages buffing Regeneration to resist spellfire, with medium infantry to draw enemy fire. 2. A human nation that fields large numbers of longbowmen with the Flaming Arrows spell, using the crappiest infantry as a shield. 3. A human nation that uses small squads of longbowmen to draw enemy archers out of position, where they are swarmed by flying air magic summons, while your air mages blow up the tightly packed enemy heavy infantry blockers with your spells. And the key factor being, THESE ARE ALL THE SAME NATION, but the are NOT strategies that can be used together; they require different recruitment, different gem expenditures, and different research priorities. You can shift between the strategies, and eventually deploy multiple at once in different areas, but you'd waste resources to deploy them in the same battle. Some nations already play like this. Some nations in Dom3 played like this after extensive balance modding. Some nations aren't there or don't have the necessary spells available to ever get there, and that's a problem. TheDemon fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Apr 22, 2014 |
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Apr 22, 2014 03:09
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Also certain things in the game, by merely being options that exist with no downside to existing, are effectively relegated to the "only in certain situations" part of things, including blood communions, which is why I don't think either blood communion spell needs a buff.
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Apr 22, 2014 03:32
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jBrereton posted:Is this even a fact anymore, if it actually ever was? From the most recent manual: quote:Destealth strength: Sum of Destealth strength of all patrolling units - unrest/2 (capped at unrest 100) + (province defence - 14 if province defence is 15 or greater) So maybe?
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Apr 22, 2014 03:48
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Take production3 and still only be able to recruit 12 human infantry from your cap because of your adjacent provs.
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Apr 22, 2014 04:10
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goatface posted:From the most recent manual: So you buy a poo poo ton of misbred, thus patrolling only slightly less than buying human light infantry and hope their combined heat auras make the titan take a nap when they catch him. But you're still out 1k gold.
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Apr 22, 2014 04:16
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I Love You! posted:Eek a spider! (cast)(cast)(cast)(cast) retreat seems to handle both situations.
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Apr 22, 2014 15:33
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Nuclearmonkee posted:(cast)(cast)(cast)(cast) retreat seems to handle both situations. Won't save you from spiders; spiders are assassinations and the target of an assassination is always unscripted.
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Apr 22, 2014 15:38
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