|
2banks1swap.avi posted:That's the thing. Business gives no poo poo and I don't see devs having strikes or walkouts over it. I certainly don't like shipping scrubcode. why the gently caress would developers strike to work harder? i am 110% in favor of devs unionizing but i would hope it would be for their benefit rather than to make demands about how they should be unnecessarily held to a higher standard my whole point was that with most code if it's hosed up you fix it and move on. yeah if you're writing the software for radiation therapy hardware, go at it like you're building a bridge or whatever. if you're just writing software that stores credit cards, don't be an idiot and follow security best practices. and if you're making GBS threads out another porn site tour get it done and leave by 5, just make sure the jr devs doing the scrubwork are using a framework of some kind so they don't poke their eye out writing injectable SQL you don't aim for 99.99999 uptime on something that doesn't require it because those extra nines are loving expensive. spend the resources you need to accomplish the business goal and be done with it
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 19:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 07:18 |
|
|
Tiny Bug Child posted:why the gently caress would developers strike to work harder? i am 110% in favor of devs unionizing but i would hope it would be for their benefit rather than to make demands about how they should be unnecessarily held to a higher standard normal engineers (that is, people with ethics and standards and official bodies that help enforce these) will strike/walk out/whistleblow on unethical or unsafe projects
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 19:29
|
|
|
Bloody posted:normal engineers (that is, people with ethics and standards and official bodies that help enforce these) will strike/walk out/whistleblow on unethical or unsafe projects yeah that's great and all and like i said i support it in the cases where it is actually applicable. but we are talking about developers. most developers do not work on things where ethics come into play, they work on boring business logic. if someone does a walkout because they think it's unethical to rush some lovely CRUD app over a SQL database they should get shitcanned for being a big overdramatic baby.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 19:33
|
|
|
uh oh i found a xss attack in our internal inventory app. time to call the guardian before tim from sales uses it to do another 9/11
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 19:35
|
|
|
It's not 'strike to work harder' so much as "strike to not have poo poo bite us in the rear end because we can't test poo poo and whoops something broke before delivery or something running life hosed up, better pull a death march staying late or get called in at 3am." Then again a lot of that comes from bad management wherein they make lovely time estimates, lovely deadlines, or underman development, which is also something a professional should raise hell over. Thankfully I've avoided having to do that so far in my career.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 19:35
|
|
|
Tiny Bug Child posted:uh oh i found a xss attack in our internal inventory app. time to call the guardian before tim from sales uses it to do another 9/11 Uh oh found a paintchip in my bridge better call 60 minutes and change my ringtone to that click-click-click.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 19:37
|
|
|
I live in a City that has spent 8 years and 700 million quid installing about 2 miles of tram line. Also the parliament building started to collapse within a couple of years of it being built. real engineering
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 19:44
|
|
|
that's what happens when you live in a culture which has heroin addiction and loving 14 year olds and goats as its foundations
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 19:46
|
|
|
I know a Canadian engineer who talks about how they all wear rings that look like nuts since someone forgot to count the weight of the nuts/bolts on a bridge and it collapsed. Twice. That's keepin it real.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 19:47
|
|
|
2banks1swap.avi posted:I know a Canadian engineer who talks about how they all wear rings that look like nuts since someone forgot to count the weight of the nuts/bolts on a bridge and it collapsed. Twice. oh man, i love counting nuts
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 19:51
|
|
|
2banks1swap.avi posted:I know a Canadian engineer who talks about how they all wear rings that look like nuts since someone forgot to count the weight of the nuts/bolts on a bridge and it collapsed. Twice. Reposting for the nth time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_of_the_Calling_of_an_Engineer Most programming doesn't need to be as strict as something like civil engineering. The flipside to that is that if you build websites, you shouldn't be allowed to call yourself an engineer.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 20:04
|
|
|
2banks1swap.avi posted:Now if devs had a professional organization that was called something not union and there was a real push for professionalism pigs would fly but it would rule. what would it do that isn't covered by the IEEE and ACM? or do you mean like a professional organization of p-langers? now hosting the third annual international conference on optional semicolons
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 20:07
|
|
|
more like dICK posted:Reposting for the nth time: fuuuuck i want an iron pinky ring
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 20:08
|
|
|
ieee and acm are p research focused and apart from the acms ethics code thing (do they still do that?) dont give a poo poo about professional practice, industry networking, etc.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 20:12
|
|
|
seems impractical. makes sense that the whole idea came from a poet rather than an engineer
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 20:12
|
|
|
also the acm is a shitheap in so many ways but that should probably be an entire thread
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 20:14
|
|
|
more like dICK posted:Most programming doesn't need to be as strict as something like civil engineering. The flipside to that is that if you build websites, you shouldn't be allowed to call yourself an engineer. that is a non sequitur. you are confusing the product with the process. i readily agree that the end product of most development is completely unimportant compared to the end product of most other kinds of engineering, but that is irrelevant. development uses (or should use) engineering processes, thus it is engineering.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 20:18
|
|
|
I just use the term developer it's the compromise so I can keep doing what I do without getting hassled by real engineers everywhere. it's only bad when they jump the gun and say "oh so you think you're a real engineer?" when I didn't even say it fuckface biologists are also looked down on by chemists are also looked down on by physicists are looked down on by mathematicians. not a real scientist, medschool failure, soft science, lol @ ur huge chi-square, just application of my study, etc. gently caress college trained people, basically
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 20:37
|
|
|
MeruFM posted:I just use the term developer its almost as if people will be assholes about the stupidest poo poo ever all the time
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 20:39
|
|
|
i specifically use "software engineer" because the Real Engineers who jump down your throat about it are guaranteed to be enormous douchebags, are also probably huge idiots outside their specific field of work, and it's fun to make them mad
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 20:40
|
|
|
but you dont write software you write php
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 20:42
|
|
|
"software engineer" is a nice way to lower expecations, like "sandwich artist".
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 20:42
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaEnaoydUUo
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 20:43
|
|
|
Tiny Bug Child posted:huge idiots outside their specific field of work for a brief moment, the potential for self-awareness for an entire forum of people appears ...and then quietly fades away
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 20:44
|
|
|
more like dICK posted:"software engineer" is a nice way to lower expecations, like "sandwich artist".
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 20:44
|
|
|
I have the title Software Engineer in the US where apparently nobody gives a gently caress, but my title is Developer in Canada where apparently law cares about it. Don't want to be sued to hell -- the title of Engineer comes with a legal responsibility.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 20:46
|
|
|
MononcQc posted:I have the title Software Engineer in the US where apparently nobody gives a gently caress, but my title is Developer in Canada where apparently law cares about it. yeah in the us the law doesnt give a gently caress about job titles but you have to be a certified professional engineer to sign off on designs of a certain type, mainly defense/civil stuff and then youre responsible for it even if you didnt do the work im torn on whether to bother getting my PE cert, most places dont give a gently caress and it involves legal responsibility
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 20:51
|
|
|
more like dICK posted:Reposting for the nth time: this was a whole thing in the late 90s in Canada, when a university got sued for trademark infringement over labeling a program "Software Engineering" (it didn't include the core physics curriculum and such). the licensure situation is such that putting SE under the umbrella probably wouldn't affect very many people (since you're not considered to be practicing Engineering if you're doing work for an employer vs a client), but for a while people were scrubbing their job postings and such. here's a nigh-unreadable powerpoint that summarizes it as of ~2010: http://www.engr.mun.ca/~dpeters/7893/Notes/presentations/SElicensing.pptx having Real Software Engineers would be neat, but I don't think it makes much of a practical difference. nobody is going to contract a SWE consultant for their mobile app like they do for vetting house plans, and few companies who don't already approach software with that discipline would start just because their new college hires had rings. the risk economics just don't fit. if you want to see more triple-check verification engineering, you might be best off trying to make the failure modes of LOB software more catastrophic? edit: Tiny Bug Child posted:development uses (or should use) engineering processes, thus it is engineering. Why should it? Civil engineers can point to pretty compelling effort/safety tradeoffs in favour of the additional diligence, but most software that has similar significance is already built in accordance with doctrines that would easily fit into a definition of big-boy engineering. most of the arguments I hear on the software side are "that sequence of letters is sacred" or "my coworkers make dumb mistakes". I'm all for better software, but there would be so much less software in the world that the profession would basically collapse for a while. (Those of us posting about this in this thread are unlikely to be called to heaven when the doctrine rapture comes.) "well, I was going to build Skype, but I couldn't afford to verify the codec's failure modes" is not a better outcome, even if the alternative is Skype users getting RCEd by the thousands every month. assuming it changed anything at all, which I think isn't likely for a few reasons, but this post is already  enough
Subjunctive fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Apr 23, 2014 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 20:52
|
|
|
more like dICK posted:"software engineer" is a nice way to lower expecations, like "sandwich artist". Subjunctive posted:SWE consultant for their mobile app this is a thing. they just call themselves technologists and may or may not have ever written software.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 21:11
|
|
|
failure modes of software are already catastrophic they just arent screamingly obvious so nobody cares. bridge fails? bridge falls down. openssl fails? well you see let me explain c++ memory allocation to you
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 21:12
|
|
|
Bloody posted:failure modes of software are already catastrophic they just arent screamingly obvious so nobody cares. bridge fails? bridge falls down. openssl fails? well you see let me explain c++ memory allocation to you Heartbleed wasn't really catastrophic, IMO. What were the effects of it, practically? I'm sure more key material leaks every month from lovely server maintenance hygiene than was lost to Heartbleed attacks.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 21:46
|
|
|
well that's part of the problem - it's difficult to pinpoint and trace the failures. did heartbleed kill anybody? cost anybody large amounts of money? cause other material damage? who knows!
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 21:58
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:Heartbleed wasn't really catastrophic, IMO. What were the effects of it, practically?
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 22:42
|
|
|
Bloody posted:well that's part of the problem - it's difficult to pinpoint and trace the failures. did heartbleed kill anybody? cost anybody large amounts of money? cause other material damage? who knows! idk I guess I figured that if you thought it was catastrophic you might have a catastrophe in mind it's pretty hard to reason about an appropriate level of investment in avoiding a problem if that problem's consequences are guesswork. the engineering process isn't about avoiding all failures, it's about being able to judge risk and mitigate it in accordance with its magnitude. engineers apply accepted rigor as appropriate to address understood problem profiles in individual cases software-system risk is utterly dominated by user error rather than software quality issues like memory management or race condition problems. UI Engineering might well be a more effective direction to reduce the amount of software-delivered damage in the world. (I guess that's called Systems Engineering in some circles.)
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2014 23:09
|
|
|
Soricidus posted:the password change announcement broke awful.app, which affected me more than any bridge collapsing ever has if it made you unable to post, thats a net positive on the forums imo
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2014 00:16
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:idk I guess I figured that if you thought it was catastrophic you might have a catastrophe in mind It certainly requires a systems approach. You have to assess your software system relative to users, to the networks its connected to, to the decisions it will inform, and to the hardware its connected to before you can really say that risk is dominated by user error or that FMEA isn't a necessity or is too hard. Even in hardware FMEA is always hard and always sucks to do and is often dominated by user error scenarios and is never complete but you do it anyways. If you run through your failure modes and all your severity ratings are "who loving cares" because you're writing garbageware then go ahead and do whatever, but if you're handling 60% of the internet's encryption you don't even have a clue how bad it could get. Something out there could be vulnerable and you know people are actively trying to exploit those vulnerabilities. You want catastrophic? Think about control systems for powerplants, or hospital servers, or refineries, or whatever. Your worst-case scenario definitely includes loss of life and property at scale and therefore its time to use the big-boy risk assessment and mitigation tools. Clearly with open source and shitapp startups that's not likely because its not fun or exciting or likely to land you in jail if you don't do it, but that doesn't mean software risk assessment can or should be handled in any way different from hardware.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2014 02:12
|
|
|
i want to do the whole trademark thing on "ninja" and "rockstar" to financially burden those who hurt me
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2014 02:18
|
|
|
Spime Wrangler posted:You want catastrophic? Think about control systems for powerplants, or hospital servers, or refineries, or whatever. Your worst-case scenario definitely includes loss of life and property at scale and therefore its time to use the big-boy risk assessment and mitigation tools. Absolutely. My thinking is that in those environments people are already employing at least the level of rigor that we're associating in this thread with capital-Software capital-Engineering. An old friend of mine does nuke-plant control software, and it certainly sounded like it from his stories. When i was in high school I thought "lol paperwork sucker" but now I think "thank god". (He's exactly the sort of person who should be writing that sort of software. He's also the guy who taught me C++, and I defile his generosity every time I push.) The Java source files used to say that you were not permitted to use the software in nuclear, human-life-critical, or similar contexts. I should probably put that on my résumé too.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2014 02:29
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:Absolutely. My thinking is that in those environments people are already employing at least the level of rigor that we're associating in this thread with capital-Software capital-Engineering. you would hope, but
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2014 02:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 07:18 |
|
|
Arcsech posted:you would hope, but I fly too much to want to ask follow-up questions. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2014 02:40
|
|