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Again, I don't want to hear any complaining when a Republican with Bush's exact set of skills comes on the scene. Because they are the skills that win elections and if you are all like "lol so dum, how can you call such a person smart" you'll be left holding your penises come the 2020 general.
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Apr 24, 2014 06:09
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SedanChair posted:George W. Bush is smarter than you Okay that doesn't answer my question of how you, SedanChair, define intelligence so that the rest of us can understand your reasoning for labeling Bush as being intelligent, which is really the crux of this whole argument other than arguing whose gaffes are dumber.
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Apr 24, 2014 06:13
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Oh good I was starting to get worried that Lee might have grown a spine and become independent of Cruz. You know, I have no idea why Mike Lee's so attached to Cruz; Lee was elected first, and he certainly did his own thing (he was Rand Paul's buddy, but not his minion) before Cruz came along. I'm at a lose to explain why he's Cruz's minion now.
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Apr 24, 2014 06:16
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Okay that doesn't answer my question of how you, SedanChair, define intelligence so that the rest of us can understand your reasoning for labeling Bush as being intelligent, which is really the crux of this whole argument other than arguing whose gaffes are dumber. Understanding people is intelligence. In fact people point to the Putin "soul" quote as if it was a misread. Look at it again, it's a very nuanced and careful statement, very appropriate for the thaw in relations that was US policy at the time. Bush navigated it well, and he did stuff like that all the time. Obama doesn't particularly understand people. His brilliance lies in a different area.
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Apr 24, 2014 06:21
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Okay that doesn't answer my question of how you, SedanChair, define intelligence so that the rest of us can understand your reasoning for labeling Bush as being intelligent, which is really the crux of this whole argument other than arguing whose gaffes are dumber. The real question is Bush: Smart President or Smartest President?
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Apr 24, 2014 06:21
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SedanChair posted:Again, I don't want to hear any complaining when a Republican with Bush's exact set of skills comes on the scene. Because they are the skills that win elections and if you are all like "lol so dum, how can you call such a person smart" you'll be left holding your penises come the 2020 general. Nah, Governor Ann Richards is going to crush this little carpetbagging jerk who thinks he can run Texas. No need to campaign too hard, just wait for him to say something stupid.
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Apr 24, 2014 06:21
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SedanChair posted:Again, I don't want to hear any complaining when a Republican with Bush's exact set of skills comes on the scene. Because they are the skills that win elections and if you are all like "lol so dum, how can you call such a person smart" you'll be left holding your penises come the 2020 general. Bush had social skills, they had practically nothing to do with his winning the election. Family connections, a boatload of money and a staff hired by his fathers brain trust won him the election. Not sure how those are related to his intelligence in the slightest. Do I need to post the debates again? The only high point of Bush's entire campaign run out of his mouth was "Got Wood?" He won one out of two generals, after a crippling terrorist attack, as if incumbency wasn't already a hefty edge. You're crediting W with the political forces that surrounded him, its pretty silly. Spaceman Future! fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 06:22
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SedanChair posted:Understanding people is intelligence. In fact people point to the Putin "soul" quote as if it was a misread. Look at it again, it's a very nuanced and careful statement, very appropriate for the thaw in relations that was US policy at the time. Bush navigated it well, and he did stuff like that all the time.
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Apr 24, 2014 06:22
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In addition to what Vital just said, I'd also like to remind everyone that Bush ran for Congress and was unable to shake the characterization of "Ivy-league wonk and egghead." He learned his lesson well enough to fool every liberal on planet earth it seems.Spaceman Future! posted:Do I need to post the debates again? Go ahead and post them, but look at them with fresh eyes. You'll be surprised. woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 06:24
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SedanChair posted:In addition to what Vital just said, I'd also like to remind everyone that Bush ran for Congress and was unable to shake the characterization of "Ivy-league wonk and egghead." He learned his lesson well enough to fool every liberal on planet earth it seems. Once again you're conflating charisma with intelligence. Do you honestly believe that because someone is charismatic that they are smart?
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Apr 24, 2014 06:26
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If you write charisma for yourself that you didn't have before, that's intelligence.
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Apr 24, 2014 06:28
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surprised by what? that an aristocrat with the best help money could buy could manage a debate without sounding like a complete moron? kind of a low standard; the only way to actually get through a debate without looking stupid at some point is to rehearse your answers regardless of how smart you are.
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Apr 24, 2014 06:31
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SedanChair posted:"It is just wonderful to be back in Oregon, and over the last 15 months we've traveled to every corner of the United States. I've now been in fifty .... seven states? I think one left to go." This is not a miscue. Obama recognized it as he said it. Bush never, ever did. You have your hobby horses and you ride them often.
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Apr 24, 2014 06:32
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No wait, but reaaaaally. Guys. Come on. Listen to me.
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Apr 24, 2014 06:37
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menino posted:This is not a miscue. Obama recognized it as he said it. Bush never, ever did. You have your hobby horses and you ride them often. Bush had more confident delivery and knew how to ride out his gaffes.  Seriously if you really think he didn't mean to say "dreams take wing" you've got no business weighing in on who is or isn't intelligent. And I will point out that Bush ain't dumb every time somebody claims he is. It's a dangerous belief that ignores his cunning and abilities and leaves us open to them. e: who is the smartest man of these three: McCain, W or Romney?
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Apr 24, 2014 06:37
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Calling Bush dumb is dumb, but so is acting like he was some kind of Machiavellian rhetorician. He was a regular guy from a rich family who really had no business being president and clearly let his cabinet run wild behind the scenes.
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Apr 24, 2014 06:45
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SedanChair posted:In addition to what Vital just said, I'd also like to remind everyone that Bush ran for Congress and was unable to shake the characterization of "Ivy-league wonk and egghead." He learned his lesson well enough to fool every liberal on planet earth it seems. The story of Bush's first (failed) campaign was super interesting. quote:Here in West Texas people say that Mr. Bush was personable and a quick study but still made a series of mistakes, largely through inexperience.
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Apr 24, 2014 06:46
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Bush was smart in that he bet all his chips on the belief that there were enough stupid voters to buy his schtick. Liberals were stupid in that they believed the electorate was smarter than that. By the end of his term voters realized the mistake they made. Progressives realized their failures. It's not 2000 anymore.
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Apr 24, 2014 06:57
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But it seems there wasn't any realization. If Rick Perry had half the skills of Bush he'd be a lock. mr. mephistopheles posted:Calling Bush dumb is dumb, but so is acting like he was some kind of Machiavellian rhetorician. He was a regular guy from a rich family who really had no business being president and clearly let his cabinet run wild behind the scenes. Bush's rhetoric was so well crafted that it's an insult to call it Machiavellian. It's Bushian. It is just about sui generis.
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Apr 24, 2014 06:58
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I feel like probably anybody that read the New York Times on a given day could say stuff that goes over the head of the vast majority of voters, because the electorate are collectively more ignorant than pre-schoolers, but that article is still pretty interesting, in that it sorta feels like staring into another reality. Edit: ^^^ Okay seriously, gently caress you.
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Apr 24, 2014 06:59
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SedanChair posted:e: who is the smartest man of these three: McCain, W or Romney? McCain without a doubt. Dude had a bit of pull with his family, but nowhere near the financial fucktons or influence that was given to W and Mittens just for being from the right vagina. He has had some miscues but politically he has survived over 25 years without daddy gifts and is a tough old bastard on top of it. If he hadnt been chasing an administration um.. so smart that completely hosed GOP executive hopes for at least 12 years he would have been a real threat to the executive too. Of course, Palin is essentially a white noise machine that cancels out any coherent thought, so you wouldn't know it looking at his later campaign.
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Apr 24, 2014 07:06
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beatlegs posted:Bush was smart in that he bet all his chips on the belief that there were enough stupid voters to buy his schtick. Liberals were stupid in that they believed the electorate was smarter than that. By the end of his term voters realized the mistake they made. Progressives realized their failures. It's not 2000 anymore. I love this post because it makes me think it's still 2009 and those memories of the those same assholes getting back into power the very next year when the electorate forgot literally everything about the previous decade and voted for anyone in a tri-cornered hat babbling about that uppity negro was just some crazy dream. Jagchosis posted:I feel like probably anybody that read the New York Times on a given day could say stuff that goes over the head of the vast majority of voters, because the electorate are collectively more ignorant than pre-schoolers, but that article is still pretty interesting, in that it sorta feels like staring into another reality. I'm agnostic on how much brains it really takes to befuddle a bunch of West Texas bible thumpers, but just the fact that his opponent successfully cast him as an elitist college boy talking down to Real Texans in big words is amazing. Plenty of liberals wrote him off as a dumb folksy hick, but that was a deliberately crafted persona, and he was drat good at taking people in with it. Whether being a masterful character actor actually translates to being successful at the Presidency is another matter. He and his team obviously didn't do the basic planning for an occupation of Iraq, for example...but on the other hand by the time it went to poo poo he'd already gotten reelected and his friends had gotten rich(er). VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 07:19 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 07:07
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Spaceman Future! posted:McCain without a doubt. Dude had a bit of pull with his family, but nowhere near the financial fucktons or influence that was given to W and Mittens just for being from the right vagina. He has had some miscues but politically he has survived over 25 years without daddy gifts and is a tough old bastard on top of it. If he hadnt been chasing an administration um.. so smart that completely hosed GOP executive hopes for at least 12 years he would have been a real threat to the executive too. I'm not sure this accurately covers McCain's history, he basically got into Annapolis because his father was an admiral and while there he was (iirc) the second from the bottom of his class. It's a little different from the straight up silver spoon that Bush and Romney were raised with, because at least military families value service, but I think McCain's father and name helped him out tremendously career-wise. I think John McCain's virtues are that he is tough as nails, and that he sticks to his principals doggedly (but many of those principals seem to change on a decade by decade basis).
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Apr 24, 2014 07:16
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SedanChair posted:Obama doesn't particularly understand people. His brilliance lies in a different area. I don't believe this at all. He understands a different set of people than Bush does. He's a half black dude from a big city - that's a much different life experience than your average US Republican. I don't think Bush is an idiot, but he clearly is terrible at self-reflection and analysis (can't let those doubts creep in!). That's a major part of intelligence, in my book.
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Apr 24, 2014 07:16
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I dunno how to evaluate him for self-reflection, if he has a carefully crafted public persona how would you know what he thinks about his work?
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Apr 24, 2014 07:18
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Jagchosis posted:I'm not sure this accurately covers McCain's history, he basically got into Annapolis because his father was an admiral and while there he was (iirc) the second from the bottom of his class. It's a little different from the straight up silver spoon that Bush and Romney were raised with, because at least military families value service, but I think McCain's father and name helped him out tremendously career-wise. I think John McCain's virtues are that he is tough as nails, and that he sticks to his principals doggedly (but many of those principals seem to change on a decade by decade basis). Which is why I say he had some pull because of his family but I wasn't exactly given a choice 4 of a completely self made politician.
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Apr 24, 2014 07:18
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Spite posted:I don't believe this at all. He understands a different set of people than Bush does. He's a half black dude from a big city - that's a much different life experience than your average US Republican. What demo does Obama personally understand as well as Bush understands rednecks?
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Apr 24, 2014 07:19
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Now I'm tempted to buy SedanChair's previous Monopoly-guy title for myself because it was goddamned hilarious, and also a good public service to warn the forums about my posting. But buying my own red title is a little too sad, even for me.
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Apr 24, 2014 07:22
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VitalSigns posted:I love this post because it makes me think it's still 2009 and those memories of the those same assholes getting back into power the very next year when the electorate forgot literally everything about the previous decade and voted for anyone in a tri-cornered hat babbling about that uppity negro was just some crazy dream.
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Apr 24, 2014 07:23
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I thought, at this point, it was generally agreed by everyone that lived through the Bush years that he was average at best in his golden years, briefly had a bit of a personality boost from alcohol and cocaine, and then abused the poo poo out of both until it caused permanent damage? Like, wasn't there article after article about how closely he matched the user->abuser->"dry drunk" curve, right down to the bit where he went cold turkey and then wouldn't shut up about Jesus?
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Apr 24, 2014 07:23
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SedanChair posted:What demo does Obama personally understand as well as Bush understands rednecks? The black and latino communities, though I always thought Biden was more personable- especially in handling himself in the 2008 Vice Presidential debates.
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Apr 24, 2014 07:25
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Job Truniht posted:The black and latino communities, though I always thought Biden was more personable- especially in handling himself in the 2008 Vice Presidential debates. And of course he took Mr. Budget Ghoul back behind the woodshed in '12.
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Apr 24, 2014 07:28
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Job Truniht posted:The black and latino communities, though I always thought Biden was more personable- especially in handling himself in the 2008 Vice Presidential debates. I said Obama, not Axelrod and Plouffe. Biden has an extremely good sense of working-class voters and for that reason probably understands black and Latino voters better than Obama.
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Apr 24, 2014 07:30
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Does understanding rednecks really require a lot of intelligence?
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Apr 24, 2014 07:31
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Nessus posted:I still remember smiling in ghoulish pleasure when Palin said, what was it? Something ignorant about families, and Biden hitting that pathos note over his own backstory.
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Apr 24, 2014 07:32
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beatlegs posted:Mid terms don't force the same intense focus on national issues and candidates' personalities as general elections do. Plus, gerrymandering. Plus, anti-Obama hysteria/propaganda like nothing seen in modern times. Plus, weak, uncertain Democratic messaging. 2010 was not due to some inherent intelligence of Republican candidates. I was making a joke about the relentless stupidity of the electorate, like how racism can drive them to put the exact same types who just blew up the country in power again. Gerrymandering wasn't an issue in 2010 though: the districts were the same as in the 2006 Democratic victories. In fact 2010 caused today's gerrymandering problem because fears of Obama enslaving the white man gave Republicans full control over a bunch of states just in time to start redrawing the districts.
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Apr 24, 2014 07:33
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SedanChair posted:I said Obama, not Axelrod and Plouffe. Biden has an extremely good sense of working-class voters and for that reason probably understands black and Latino voters better than Obama. I love Biden, but I've got this nagging feeling that the guy who was part of the Choom Gang and casually gushed about Jay Z on the campaign trail, wears out the asphalt on the White House Basketball court and hangs out with Beyonce has a smidgen more resonance and insight with the black community. There was that other thing too.. oh man what was it
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Apr 24, 2014 07:34
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SedanChair posted:I said Obama, not Axelrod and Plouffe. I honestly can't tell the difference, though I do remember Obama seriously hedging on his life story of coming from a lower family in Chicago as a minority and "making it" did wonders by itself to mobilize the black community. That was his entire intro at the DNC in Denver. Him appointing Sotomayor to the Supreme Court and on immigration reform talking points were also solid moves to get the Latino community moving.
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Apr 24, 2014 07:37
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SedanChair posted:I said Obama, not Axelrod and Plouffe. Biden has an extremely good sense of working-class voters and for that reason probably understands black and Latino voters better than Obama. The problem is, the couple times that Obama has tried speaking to black people as though he was a black man himself the right went apeshit like he was calling for a race war or something. I don't think any high ranking politician understands Latino voters, though. EDIT: Goddammit SedanChair I poured my heart and soul into that title Homura and Sickle fucked around with this message at 07:50 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 07:44
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Spaceman Future! posted:I love Biden, but I've got this nagging feeling that the guy who was part of the Choom Gang and casually gushed about Jay Z on the campaign trail, wears out the asphalt on the White House Basketball court and hangs out with Beyonce has a smidgen more resonance and insight with the black community. There was that other thing too.. oh man what was it You may have a point in that black urban culture is as much a put-on for Obama as the rancher persona is for Bush.
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Apr 24, 2014 07:50
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