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I filled out my ballot and put a stamp on the envelope a week in advance. Then I forgot. Death to me.
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Apr 24, 2014 17:24
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Roads are ridiculously expensive. I mean it is understandable, but they run in the order of 2 to 10 million dollars a mile depending on terrain for just 2 lane roads.
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Apr 24, 2014 17:25
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computer parts posted:99% of those costs are probably roads though which aren't exactly luxury items. Roads and schools and police stations and healthcare ... you know all the things that a community pays taxes for. It's not like bus service in Seattle servicing hundreds of thousands of people is any more of a luxury than a highway to Nowhere, WA that services a dozen houses. If country conservatives want to slash community services, they can certainly be asked to pay their own way. No wonder they're willing to cut funding when their town is getting back more than $3 for every buck they pay in taxes. Kaal fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 17:26
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Kaal posted:Roads and schools and police stations and healthcare ... you know all the things that a community pays taxes for. It's not like bus service in Seattle servicing hundreds of thousands of people is any more of a luxury than a highway to Nowhere, WA that services a dozen houses. If country conservatives want to slash community services, they can certainly be asked to pay their own way. I guess the real issue lies in why a Seattle bus service is being voted on by the entire state. e: Actually is it being voted on by the entire state or is just the county doing it? If the latter, why do some bullshit about ~~rural types~~ if they're not even voting on it? computer parts fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 17:32
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I hear that from people living inside king county.
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Apr 24, 2014 18:15
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computer parts posted:
Living in King County, I feel like that's been part of the misconceptions surrounding Prop 1. Opponents and talk-radio and the like kept making it seem as though voting for Prop 1 means voting for rural Washington to pay for King County's roads. It's a pretty common meme that Conservatives bring up on every tax issue, even though we've seen that it's complete bullshit. People with no other info will tend to believe it. There are a few reasons I suspect that Prop 1 failed: Due to Tim Eyman's bullshit lowering car tabs to $30 (+fees or whatever), $60 is a big percentage increase on that which scares people away. Not to mention the usual bullshit where people can't understand the idea of taking a loss on transportation spending in order to support the rest of the economy on a foundational level.
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Apr 24, 2014 18:31
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computer parts posted:I guess the real issue lies in why a Seattle bus service is being voted on by the entire state. Do me a favor and look at the King County boundaries. Over 50% of it is rural bumfuck pine tree acreage. Here's an interactive map of how the prop 1 vote went: https://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/oranv.i2d1b9dd/page.html#10/47.4922/-121.8906
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Apr 24, 2014 18:36
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Bucket Joneses posted:Do me a favor and look at the King County boundaries. Over 50% of it is rural bumfuck pine tree acreage. And yet in 2010 and 2012 they went D by 65-35. It's not exactly a swing county.
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Apr 24, 2014 18:38
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Yeah King County has Maple Valley, Ravensdale, Enumscratch etc. How are their buses going to be affected anyway?
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Apr 24, 2014 18:40
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computer parts posted:And yet in 2010 and 2012 they went D by 65-35. It's not exactly a swing county. I'm not making a left/right argument at all. It's not about that. What I'm talking about is the fact that the people who live out in Maple Valley (for instance) simply do not use KCM so they have no vested interest in voting for more taxes/fees to support it.
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Apr 24, 2014 18:44
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Bucket Joneses posted:I'm not making a left/right argument at all. It's not about that. What I'm talking about is the fact that the people who live out in Maple Valley (for instance) simply do not use KCM so they have no vested interest in voting for more taxes/fees to support it. The 168 runs from Kent to MV and the people who use it really need it.
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Apr 24, 2014 18:48
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Bucket Joneses posted:I'm not making a left/right argument at all. It's not about that. What I'm talking about is the fact that the people who live out in Maple Valley (for instance) simply do not use KCM so they have no vested interest in voting for more taxes/fees to support it. And that's not the point I was making. The point I was making is pulling the old "Urban counties give more in taxes than they get therefore eat the rural population" is nonsensical because this vote is entirely within a single (relatively) urban county and a large number of the No votes are coming from non-rural locations.
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Apr 24, 2014 18:48
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The few busses that run out there are great for the elderly, disabled, and poorer teens. I haven't looked to see if they're on the chopping block. A flat tax on car tabs was a loving stupid idea anyway. It has a long history of being hated and it's even more regressive than a sales tax. I think the only thing worse would have been a fuel tax, but that probably would have passed. Edit: anti tax arguments that aren't based on reality or logic? I'm shocked and appalled.
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Apr 24, 2014 18:53
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computer parts posted:And that's not the point I was making. The point I was making is pulling the old "Urban counties give more in taxes than they get therefore eat the rural population" is nonsensical because this vote is entirely within a single (relatively) urban county and a large number of the No votes are coming from non-rural locations. Why are you "making points" when you don't know who is voting on the proposition and you don't know the demography of the area? And how is asking for semi-equitable tax distribution "eating the rural population"? Is paying your own bills some kind of huge affront to democracy? Certainly it seems like tying such a rider onto the various Eyman initiatives would be a pretty fair thing to do. It seems like you're kinda grasping at straws here. Kaal fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 18:56
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Why does everything always end up back at "holy poo poo Washington loves regressive taxes"? gently caress we need to solve this bad.
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Apr 24, 2014 18:57
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Kaal posted:And how is asking for semi-equitable tax distribution "eating the rural population"? Is paying your own bills some kind of huge affront to democracy? It's not related at all to the topic of discussion.
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Apr 24, 2014 19:00
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computer parts posted:It's not related at all to the topic of discussion. What, "Who is paying/receiving taxes" isn't related to the discussion of a transportation tax/funding initiative? That's absurd. I think that maybe Seattle wouldn't have to be constantly battling for funding if they weren't subsidizing the rest of the state; and I think that some of these anti-tax proposals would be a harder sell if their supporters knew it would jeopardize their handouts.
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Apr 24, 2014 19:08
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Kaal posted:What, "Who is paying/receiving taxes" isn't related to the discussion of a transportation tax/funding initiative? That's absurd. I think that maybe Seattle wouldn't have to be constantly battling for funding if they weren't subsidizing the rest of the state; and I think that some of these anti-tax proposals would be a harder sell if their supporters knew it would jeopardize their handouts. Okay, you see this part? This is why it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. No one in Eastern Washington is proposing these. This is all in King County, a county that went for Democrats 65-35 for at least the past 10 years. If you want to blame someone, blame people from the suburbs of Seattle who voted against it.
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Apr 24, 2014 19:11
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computer parts posted:If you want to blame someone, blame people from the suburbs of Seattle who voted against it. Try reading this map that was posted directly to you earlier: https://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/oranv.i2d1b9dd/page.html#10/47.1687/-121.7450 The "suburban Democrat Seattleites" you're talking about live up to 100 miles away. Kaal fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 19:18
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Kaal posted:Try reading this map over and over and over and over: https://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/oranv.i2d1b9dd/page.html#10/47.1687/-121.7450 If your thick skull is unable to comprehend that I'm talking about the Seatac/Mercer/Bellevue/Redmond/Shoreline areas instead of the rest of the map, I don't know what else to say.
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Apr 24, 2014 19:22
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computer parts posted:I guess the real issue lies in why a Seattle bus service is being voted on by the entire state. computer parts posted:If your thick skull is unable to comprehend that I'm talking about the Seatac/Mercer/Bellevue/Redmond/Shoreline areas instead of the rest of the map, I don't know what else to say. I think that my thick skull is unable to comprehend what the hell you're trying to say because you're completely incomprehensible. Your goalposts are shifting wildly with every new post. And that wouldn't be a problem, except you interject this arrogantly dismissive attitude that shuts down any attempt at discussion. Kaal fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 19:28
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Kaal posted:I think that my thick skull is unable to comprehend what the hell you're trying to say because you're completely incomprehensible. Hey, you remember this post? Kaal posted:Try reading this map that was posted directly to you earlier: https://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/oranv.i2d1b9dd/page.html#10/47.1687/-121.7450 The post that was directly relating to this post? computer parts posted:Okay, you see this part? This is why it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. No one in Eastern Washington is proposing these. This is all in King County, a county that went for Democrats 65-35 for at least the past 10 years. I'll bring your attention to the bolded portion. I am saying, in clearest English: -The reason the proposition failed is assholes from Seattle suburbs. - The reason the proposition failed is not due to people in rural areas. - Whether or not people in rural counties get more in taxes than they take in is beside the point because they have nothing to do with this proposition. - Whether or not people in rural areas will "pay their own way*" would not make a difference in the outcome of the proposition because people in rural counties had nothing to do with the proposition. Is there anything else I can help you with? tl;dr (and I know you're only going to read/quote this line): Your points about making rural people pay more have nothing to do with this proposition. * Kaal posted:Roads and schools and police stations and healthcare ... you know all the things that a community pays taxes for. It's not like bus service in Seattle servicing hundreds of thousands of people is any more of a luxury than a highway to Nowhere, WA that services a dozen houses. If country conservatives want to slash community services, they can certainly be asked to pay their own way. No wonder they're willing to cut funding when their town is getting back more than $3 for every buck they pay in taxes.
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Apr 24, 2014 19:33
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Rural people have everything to do with this proposition. The reason we had to put it on the ballot in the first place is that the state legislature won't give any taxing authority to localities. Why? Because the Republican majority in the Senate (excuse me, the "coalition caucus"  ) shuts it down anytime anyone tries to. So, this is what we end up stuck with. Additionally, Initiative 695--which is what we're really talking about when we talk about when we talk about transit funding shortfalls--failed in King County but passed in enough of the rest of the state to go through, and gently caress Metro out of a third of their funding. So while it's true that--taken in a vacuum--rural, out-of-county voters did not kill Proposition 1, when taken in-context, the problem that Proposition 1 is trying to fix is entirely their fault, and could easily be fixed simply by redirecting some of King County's state tax revenue out of rural shitholes and back into King County.
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Apr 24, 2014 20:45
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SedanChair posted:I filled out my ballot and put a stamp on the envelope a week in advance. Then I forgot. Death to me. We've all been there at least once. Here's your complementary albatross and depression lamp.
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Apr 24, 2014 21:18
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Just a reminder for PDX people! This is tonight.
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Apr 24, 2014 21:42
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Thanatosian posted:So while it's true that--taken in a vacuum--rural, out-of-county voters did not kill Proposition 1, when taken in-context, the problem that Proposition 1 is trying to fix is entirely their fault, and could easily be fixed simply by redirecting some of King County's state tax revenue out of rural shitholes and back into King County. Reminder that the reason they are rural places is specifically that there aren't that many people there. There are 5 times more people living on Queen Anne hill than in all of Ferry County, for instance. Seattle proper roughly balances with middle-of-nowhere Washington, so statewide elections are usually decided in the arc from Everett around to Issaquah and down through Olympia. So whenever any of this poo poo is passed, the blame should fall not on a dozen random Eastern WA farmers, but on the 20k suburbanites who agreed with them. That said: gently caress Tim Eyman. This can never be repeated enough.
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Apr 24, 2014 22:31
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Xylorjax posted:
I want to take this to GBS and emptyquote it forever.
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Apr 24, 2014 23:08
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Refile I-831 every year.
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Apr 24, 2014 23:52
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When a mostly-progressive county rejects a regressive-as-poo poo tax package, blame the badly-written bill, not the voters. Word on the street is that the bill was only a stalking horse to show the Metro budget crunch's effects, and the next avenue for funding busses is another chunk of property taxes levied overly on home-owners and rental properties- condos are naturally less affected by this, so woo go property developers yay.
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Apr 25, 2014 03:54
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Gerund posted:Word on the street is that the bill was only a stalking horse to show the Metro budget crunch's effects, and the next avenue for funding busses is another chunk of property taxes levied overly on home-owners and rental properties- condos are naturally less affected by this, so woo go property developers yay. If this is true, you guys should be concerned that your transportation authority has embraced accelerationism. And that this future bill may not even pass.
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Apr 25, 2014 06:29
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Mostly progressive my rear end, those assholes rejected a top 1% tax explicitly marked for education funding. Our universities have been systematically gutted, public transport is being gutted, roads and bridges are left to fall apart – all by the same rich assholes who claim to value education and who rely on roads to commute. I'd be fine with them digging their own grave but the holes they make are big enough to take all of us with them.
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Apr 25, 2014 06:35
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wheez the roux posted:Mostly progressive my rear end, those assholes rejected a top 1% tax explicitly marked for education funding. Our universities have been systematically gutted, public transport is being gutted, roads and bridges are left to fall apart – all by the same rich assholes who claim to value education and who rely on roads to commute. I'd be fine with them digging their own grave but the holes they make are big enough to take all of us with them. The lottery was supposedly earmarked solely for education too. It just so happens that A- it never was pre-I 728 and post-I 728 that money gets raided whenever there is a 'budget gap' & B- that just makes it easier to cut education out of the budget from normal sources because obviously the other funding sources can handle it. All-in-all I'm entirely cynical about 'earmarked' funding from taxes, and I would prefer stable budget systems from a catch-all general budget.
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Apr 25, 2014 06:46
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e: whoops, sorry wrong thread
namaste friends fucked around with this message at 06:56 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 06:51
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Kaal posted:edit: If I were an urban legislator, I might start tagging a Tax Shield rider onto every prospective anti-tax bill that would ensure that people's tax dollars weren't constantly floating over over to their "spendthrift" county neighbors. That kind of rank disparity in tax spending is outrageous - there ought to be a limit on how unbalanced spending can get. Taxpayers deserve to know that their money is being spent responsibly within their own community, not propping up far-off country homeowners that aren't willing to pay their own way. Gerund posted:When a mostly-progressive county rejects a regressive-as-poo poo tax package, blame the badly-written bill, not the voters.
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Apr 25, 2014 08:17
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King County residents should really start pushing for a referendum that would force state general fund spending in each county to be within 5% of the general fund revenue collected from that county. King County's budget problems would be entirely over, and Ferry County would just have to find a way to trim some loving fat.
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Apr 25, 2014 08:56
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Thanatosian posted:King County residents should really start pushing for a referendum that would force state general fund spending in each county to be within 5% of the general fund revenue collected from that county. King County's budget problems would be entirely over, and Ferry County would just have to find a way to trim some loving fat. As loving hilarious as that would be, wouldn't you end up killing off the ferry system?
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Apr 25, 2014 12:31
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Thanatosian posted:King County residents should really start pushing for a referendum that would force state general fund spending in each county to be within 5% of the general fund revenue collected from that county. King County's budget problems would be entirely over, and Ferry County would just have to find a way to trim some loving fat. See, the fallacy of this argument is assuming that the money spent outside of King County does not benefit it at all. Take it as a given that the vast majority of money spent in rural counties are roads. Do you really think that having roads is not significantly economically beneficial in general? Or take another example - Dams. The Grand Coulee Dam (one of the largest generators of hydroelectric power) is located within Grant County, which went 60-30 for Romney in 2012. I mean obviously that's a federal program but the same logic applies. e2: So people don't misinterpret: The point I'm trying to make is that using tax revenue solely as a basis of measuring where economic development should happen is a flawed measure because it doesn't take into account non-tax based methods of economic activity. computer parts fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 13:35
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computer parts posted:See, the fallacy of this argument is assuming that the money spent outside of King County does not benefit it at all. Western Washington needs to start doing something punitive to Eastern Washington, instead of rolling over and being a doormat for them, which is clearly not working. And yeah, some of those spending cuts would hurt us, too, but not anywhere near as much as it would hurt them, which is what is important.
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Apr 25, 2014 15:36
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Thanatosian posted:As you've pointed out, dams are generally federally-funded. And the roads of greatest benefit to King County that are outside of King County are the interstates, which are also federally funded. There's greatest benefit, and then there's significant economic benefit. A major part of Washington's economy is tourism related to natural wonders (parks, mountains, etc) and a lot of those are inaccessible by purely federal roads. (For example, Mt Rainier and Mt St Helens) quote:Western Washington needs to start doing something punitive to Eastern Washington, instead of rolling over and being a doormat for them, which is clearly not working. And yeah, some of those spending cuts would hurt us, too, but not anywhere near as much as it would hurt them, which is what is important. Yeah but this is a dumb idea that you're doing for no reason. Western Washington controls the state, the eastern side has about 1/3 of the population and the state legislature is controlled by Democrats so there's not even significant gerrymandering like in the South. If you're having any problems with the legislature it's because your Democratic party lacks cohesiveness, not because there's a disproportionate amount of influence by the Eastern 2/3rds (and really from what it looks like there's more than a few Republicans from the western third of the state).
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Apr 25, 2014 15:52
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computer parts posted:There's greatest benefit, and then there's significant economic benefit. A major part of Washington's economy is tourism related to natural wonders (parks, mountains, etc) and a lot of those are inaccessible by purely federal roads. And yes, the Democrats in the state Legislature are largely completely loving worthless, which would be the whole point of a referendum like that: it would force them to play loving hardball, instead of continually bringing a wiffle bat to a gun fight.
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Apr 25, 2014 16:27
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