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Greataval posted:I thought it was decent book. Like said before there is only so much you can do with Horus he has to fight the emperor he has to get amped up by the big 4 to be able to do it. So it nailed those points and it has no kurze so its a plus. What I thought was interesting was that it implied the Emperor straight up robbed the big 4 chaos gods on their home turf for power, and then Horus is sort of forced to do the same thing by them for shits and giggles. All it does is reinforce how badly Master of Mankind needs to come out.
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May 6, 2014 20:58
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It will be very interesting whether ADB runs with the Big E stealing power from chaos or just a deal gone bad.
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May 6, 2014 21:17
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Greataval posted:It will be very interesting whether ADB runs with the Big E stealing power from chaos or just a deal gone bad. Probably made a deal but used a loophole to get off paying it back, so Chaos said "gently caress that its on".
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May 6, 2014 22:14
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pentyne posted:Probably made a deal but used a loophole to get off paying it back, so Chaos said "gently caress that its on". I'm guessing he had no intention of paying it back. Of course, when you're dealing with the intentions and motivations of the Emperor, much less the Chaos Gods, it's a crapshoot at best.
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May 6, 2014 22:28
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In regards to the whole slave to the plot thing, how set in stone is the 40k lore? Are secondary characters like Kharn, Typhus, or Erebus set in stone? I don't really know what happens to them in the current setting other than they are still around. Does the 40K lore ever get retconned, throughout the codexes, or only minor stuff and not major plot points?
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May 6, 2014 23:25
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Impaired Casing posted:In regards to the whole slave to the plot thing, how set in stone is the 40k lore? Are secondary characters like Kharn, Typhus, or Erebus set in stone? I don't really know what happens to them in the current setting other than they are still around. Does the 40K lore ever get retconned, throughout the codexes, or only minor stuff and not major plot points? Well. We have the Newcrons now. But they've always been kind of tangential. I think the Heresy stuff is pretty much rock solid by this point - it's such an integral part of the lore that any changes would very definitely piss of the fanbase.
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May 6, 2014 23:28
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Saith posted:Well. We have the Newcrons now. But they've always been kind of tangential. I think the Heresy stuff is pretty much rock solid by this point - it's such an integral part of the lore that any changes would very definitely piss of the fanbase.
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May 6, 2014 23:36
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Impaired Casing posted:In regards to the whole slave to the plot thing, how set in stone is the 40k lore? Are secondary characters like Kharn, Typhus, or Erebus set in stone? I don't really know what happens to them in the current setting other than they are still around. Does the 40K lore ever get retconned, throughout the codexes, or only minor stuff and not major plot points? 40k is intentionally set up so that you can pretty much piss all over continuity whenever you feel like with fluff excuses like 10,000 years in which to forget things, constant war + the inquisition + Tzeench etc. altering and destroying records, time dilation and distortion during warp travel, humanity being a bunch of superstitious pre-scientific pre-moderns, and the warp itself being a place with no sane concept of time or permanence. It's an intentionally mythic setting that's meant to represent a non-modern worldview. This was even more so in older editions of the game where a lot of teh rulebooks were more obviously written from an Imperial viewpoint as opposed to the current more authoritative style, and you could more easily assume some or all of it was unreliable. Also even outside these excuses big chunks of 40k lore have been removed or changed by either a silly excuse (e.g. "Tyranids ate them") or straight-up just changing the previous fluff (e.g. the new editions of Codex: Necrons, Codex: Grey Knights). OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 23:51 on May 6, 2014 |
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May 6, 2014 23:45
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Cream_Filling posted:Also even outside these excuses big chunks of 40k lore have been removed or changed by either a silly excuse (e.g. "Tyranids ate them") or straight-up just changing the previous fluff (e.g. the new editions of Codex: Necrons, Codex: Grey Knights). I don't know, "Tyranids ate them" is a perfectly true to form grim dark reason for why the Squats are no longer around as a force to be reckoned with in the 41st millennium. I mean, really, that's what Tyranids do!
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May 7, 2014 01:39
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VanSandman posted:What I thought was interesting was that it implied the Emperor straight up robbed the big 4 chaos gods on their home turf for power, and then Horus is sort of forced to do the same thing by them for shits and giggles. Something that's occurred to me after reading a bunch of the Heresy novels recently is that the root cause of the Heresy might be the Emperor's own inhumanity. The impression I've gotten is that the Emperor thinks coldly and clearly with a long-term goal while divorced from more human sensibilities and failings. He expects the primarchs to fulfill the role the Emperor intends for them in his work: to be his loyal generals and share the Emperor's mentality and goals. All of his mistakes and seemingly malicious actions towards the primarchs seem to be justifiable from the Emp's point of view if you put it in the context of the Emp expecting the primarchs to think like he does. It's the primarchs' humanity that separates them from the Emp - Lorgar's genuine religious belief, Magnus' impatience and intellectual arrogance (not backed by the same raw power, foresight, and planning of the Emp), Angron's broken mind, the jealous pride of Horus, Curze and Perturabo resenting their parts in the Crusade, etc. The Emp expects them to think and act like he does, coldly and rationally. He's wrong, because the primarchs are essentially and profoundly human for all that they're larger than life figures. The Emp is not. If that's the intended read on the Emperor's role in the Heresy, that he's alien and disconnected from humanity rather than incompetent, cruel, or malicious, then I have to give GW some credit for a modicum of subtlety in the theme. The protectors and champions of mankind are all removed from humanity, to a greater and greater degree as you move up the chain of command: the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Astartes, the primarchs, and the Emperor himself.
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May 7, 2014 02:17
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Cythereal posted:Something that's occurred to me after reading a bunch of the Heresy novels recently is that the root cause of the Heresy might be the Emperor's own inhumanity. The impression I've gotten is that the Emperor thinks coldly and clearly with a long-term goal while divorced from more human sensibilities and failings. He expects the primarchs to fulfill the role the Emperor intends for them in his work: to be his loyal generals and share the Emperor's mentality and goals. All of his mistakes and seemingly malicious actions towards the primarchs seem to be justifiable from the Emp's point of view if you put it in the context of the Emp expecting the primarchs to think like he does. It's the primarchs' humanity that separates them from the Emp - Lorgar's genuine religious belief, Magnus' impatience and intellectual arrogance (not backed by the same raw power, foresight, and planning of the Emp), Angron's broken mind, the jealous pride of Horus, Curze and Perturabo resenting their parts in the Crusade, etc. The Emp expects them to think and act like he does, coldly and rationally. He's wrong, because the primarchs are essentially and profoundly human for all that they're larger than life figures. The Emp is not. Being rational and farsighted are part of humanity too. In fact that's what makes the emperor an ideal and a paragon of humanity, in particular the great man of history ideal which of course in real life doesn't really exist. In the older fluff, at least, the emperor was born as a man and lived many lifetimes as a man but ultimately had to abandon this and take increasingly drastic actions to protect mankind, at first in secret and in various disguises but eventually takng on the inhuman persona of The Emperor due to some mysterious but urgent future crisis which he foresees. Of course ironically this urgency may ultimately have caused the vwry doom he wqs trying to prevent OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 04:03 on May 7, 2014 |
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May 7, 2014 04:00
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“The Alpha Legionnaire led the way. Chayne realised, with alarm, that the Astartes was cheerfully striding through the serried sensor beams, breaking them without setting any of them off. Chayne followed, hopping and stepping over the harmonic tags.” Legion is the best Warhams book. It's official. I pictured a heavily armoured, 300 kilogram Legionnaire casually skipping and singing in a meadow, only instead of flowers, tripwires.
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May 7, 2014 04:28
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Really, since we already know (or at least have had access to for a long time) the major points that occur along the Heresy, I've always viewed the HH series as the fleshing-out of all the stuff between them, and adding more detail to the events we already know will happen. I think it's a lot easier to enjoy the HH series in that context.
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May 7, 2014 05:00
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One Legged Cat posted:Really, since we already know (or at least have had access to for a long time) the major points that occur along the Heresy, I've always viewed the HH series as the fleshing-out of all the stuff between them, and adding more detail to the events we already know will happen. I think it's a lot easier to enjoy the HH series in that context. I feel that was for the most part, but it was Erebus, as I am sure many feel, that ruined this feeling for me. So many times I hated him so much I wanted him to just die. It seemed the authors felt the same way since, in the latter books, he gets his face cut off, loses a hand, gets the poo poo kicked out of him. Not dead, but just punished. And I love it.
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May 7, 2014 05:38
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Impaired Casing posted:In regards to the whole slave to the plot thing, how set in stone is the 40k lore? Are secondary characters like Kharn, Typhus, or Erebus set in stone? I don't really know what happens to them in the current setting other than they are still around. Does the 40K lore ever get retconned, throughout the codexes, or only minor stuff and not major plot points? Well, as much as it's not supposed to happen, it's occured plenty of times: - The Word Bearers / Erebus influence on starting the Horus Heresy - The Tyranids previously were an intelligent faction that negotiated with the Imperium through Zoats - Genestealers going from shameless H.R.Giger Rip-off to Harbingers of the Tyranids - Space Marines going from shameless Sardaukar rip-off to 'Regular guys with elite training in power armour' to 'Knights Templar in spaaaaaaaace' - The Necrons becoming a faction - The Necron C'tan changing from unholy space Cthulu down to 'Shards', controlled by the Necrons - The Necrons being retconned from being enslaved to the C'tan to the other way around - Hurr Hurr the Dark Angels are gay whoops we're a major corporation now and it's not cool to make homophobic in-jokes - Hurr Hurr Birmingham is the 'Black Planet' whoops we're a major corporation now and it's not cool to make racist in-jokes - Squats & Zoats being a thing and then eliminated (Explained in universe and kinda justified, both sucked) E: In the context that very early GW (And very early, Rogue Trader era 40k) was.... 'heavily influenced' by a mash of different sources, including primarily Tolkien, Dune, Aliens and Starship Troopers. Shockeh fucked around with this message at 14:32 on May 7, 2014 |
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May 7, 2014 13:56
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Cream_Filling posted:Being rational and farsighted are part of humanity too. In fact that's what makes the emperor an ideal and a paragon of humanity, in particular the great man of history ideal which of course in real life doesn't really exist. Well according to Horus in Vengeful Spirit the Emperor was just a man until he went to Molech, there he gained the abilities that made him a god. Which opens up a lot of questions which (while I'm not finished yet) haven't even been remotely broached (is Horus correct? When Horus says "Man" does he mean vanilla mortal in abilities, or is he referring to outlook on the cosmos? when Horus says god does he mean able to create life or does he mean the whole suite of abilities the Emperor packs? Is Horus lying to his allies to curb their ambitions and make them subservient to him since he will be a god? Is "become a god" more a reflection of what happened or what Horus seeks to happen to himself?) This could have been an interesting part of the mythical dynamic - both dealt with the Warp Gods, but one choose knowledge and the other choose power. It would tie in with the general story (Emperor got the knowledge of how to create the primarch a from the warp) and follow the traditional myth where the one who deals with the gods for knowledge eventually suffers, but the one who deals with them for power is destroyed outright, and served as an interesting highlight of the Emperors science focus and Horus' martial focus. But it doesn't look like they are doing that. Basically we really need Master of Mankind to come out.
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May 7, 2014 14:30
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Fried Chicken posted:Well according to Horus in Vengeful Spirit the Emperor was just a man until he went to Molech, there he gained the abilities that made him a god. Which opens up a lot of questions which (while I'm not finished yet) haven't even been remotely broached (is Horus correct? When Horus says "Man" does he mean vanilla mortal in abilities, or is he referring to outlook on the cosmos? when Horus says god does he mean able to create life or does he mean the whole suite of abilities the Emperor packs? Is Horus lying to his allies to curb their ambitions and make them subservient to him since he will be a god? Is "become a god" more a reflection of what happened or what Horus seeks to happen to himself?) This could have been an interesting part of the mythical dynamic - both dealt with the Warp Gods, but one choose knowledge and the other choose power. It would tie in with the general story (Emperor got the knowledge of how to create the primarch a from the warp) and follow the traditional myth where the one who deals with the gods for knowledge eventually suffers, but the one who deals with them for power is destroyed outright, and served as an interesting highlight of the Emperors science focus and Horus' martial focus. But it doesn't look like they are doing that. I agree. Seriously, the Emperor goes into the Warp and comes back out to make Primarchs and conquer most of the known galaxy. Horus goes into the Warp and comes back out...and gets smacked down by the Emperor. If the only thing he got out of his experience was the ability to stand toe to toe with the Emperor, fine, but he still got blasted the instant the Emperor stopped holding back. Why didn't he make some Primarchs of his own? Why didn't he do some of his own Emperor-ish stuff? Why didn't he do anything other than get into a straight up slug-fest with the Emperor? I feel like that story arc really got wasted.
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May 7, 2014 15:05
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Shroud posted:Why didn't he make some Primarchs of his own? Why didn't he do some of his own Emperor-ish stuff? Why didn't he do anything other than get into a straight up slug-fest with the Emperor? Horus wasn't the scientific and genetic genius that the Emperor was, ever. The methods behind the creation of the Primarchs was a secret that only one man in the universe knew and he wasn't sharing it with them. Guys like Fabius tried to unlock the techniques with various results but it's not like Horus could whip up anything comparable to his brothers just with his Chaos powers. Why would he bother anyway when he has perfectly functioning traitor Primarchs to bully around and scheme with?
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May 7, 2014 16:35
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AndyElusive posted:Horus wasn't the scientific and genetic genius that the Emperor was, ever. The methods behind the creation of the Primarchs was a secret that only one man in the universe knew and he wasn't sharing it with them. Guys like Fabius tried to unlock the techniques with various results but it's not like Horus could whip up anything comparable to his brothers just with his Chaos powers. Why would he bother anyway when he has perfectly functioning traitor Primarchs to bully around and scheme with? The point is Horus could have gotten that secret. Or another. Or any other type of knowledge, like what Magnus or Lorgar searched for. Instead he took physical power. It's a fairly well formed part of the monomyth that the hero will be faced with the choice of power or knowledge. Choose knowledge, you stay with your teacher and master the skills and eventually triumph over the shadow (the shadow usually being what the hero would have been had they chosen the power instead of the knowledge). Choose power something bad happens and this is the story of the shadow or the badly defeated and now humbled hero returns to the teacher to beg another chance. This is (a very small part) of how Lucas hosed up the prequels btw. In the film Anakin chose knowledge and that is what caused his fall. Stover does a better job in the novel by making knowledge a lie Anakin tells and power the choice.
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May 7, 2014 17:07
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Interpret it as "power over life and death" rather than the specific knowledge of how to gain it and it's marginally less terrible.
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May 7, 2014 17:09
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Unless the secret is that the primarchs are basically non-evil warp entities and/or bits of the Emperor's essence in custom-grown super Space Marine bodies, in which case possessed marines/Daemon princes are basically like a ghetto cheap knockoff of the primarchs except without the Emperor/Emperor's soul to make them not evil and crazy. This woudl have at least helped explain why the Sons of Horus all of a sudden go full-on chaos evil and start makign those super possessed marines if they changed the timing on that.
OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 17:42 on May 7, 2014 |
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May 7, 2014 17:37
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I have no doubt, not a single one, that they'll retcon 'the Emperor was holding back against Horus' to 'the Emperor and Horus were basically even, so the Emperor had to launch a suicidal attack to win.' The old story will be Imperial Propaganda.
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May 7, 2014 20:03
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AndyElusive posted:Horus wasn't the scientific and genetic genius that the Emperor was, ever. The methods behind the creation of the Primarchs was a secret that only one man in the universe knew and he wasn't sharing it with them. Guys like Fabius tried to unlock the techniques with various results but it's not like Horus could whip up anything comparable to his brothers just with his Chaos powers. Why would he bother anyway when he has perfectly functioning traitor Primarchs to bully around and scheme with? Didn't the Raven Guard, basically make demi primarchs pretty successfully? Corax got the primarch goo, and the apothecary basically made a bunch of demi-primarchs until the alpha legion hosed it all up?
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May 8, 2014 03:19
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Shockeh posted:- Hurr Hurr Birmingham is the 'Black Planet' whoops we're a major corporation now and it's not cool to make racist in-jokes Uh.. you know this has nothing to do with race, right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Country
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May 8, 2014 12:38
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In VS Fulgrim gets hit with some literally* high school level philosophy and it leaves him so cowed he stands there dumbfounded. What the Christ *is that the right use of literally? The book specifically says it was schola level philosophy, so it should be literally but this is a work of fiction so should it be figuratively?
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May 8, 2014 13:59
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Close enough. "Schola" seems to imply different age groups depending on writer and context anyway. Some of them are orphanages so you could see them having lots of babies and toddlers.
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May 8, 2014 14:41
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UberJumper posted:Didn't the Raven Guard, basically make demi primarchs pretty successfully? Corax got the primarch goo, and the apothecary basically made a bunch of demi-primarchs until the alpha legion hosed it all up? They weren't making demi-Primarchs, they were making new marines to replace their devastating loses. Fabius Bile though is the one trying to make a Chaos version of the Emperor.
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May 8, 2014 14:49
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Uh.. you know this has nothing to do with race, right? (If anything, it's part referral to the Black Country, partial shocking reference to population, partial reference to the sheer horror that is getting in & out of Birmingham.)
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May 8, 2014 16:39
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Shockeh posted:Yeah, I know. As someone who lives an hour away from Brum; I'm aware that's the reason given. I don't personally believe it's not the only one they were implicating at the time. I'm still not sure where you're getting the "shocking reference to population" from, everything points to it being a joke about how crappy and industrial that part of the UK is. Lexicanum posted:Birmingham is also known as the Black Planet, as it receives almost no visible light from its system's sun. As a result, the planet receives few visitors, and its inhabitants have become linguistically and culturally isolated. Its technology is primitive compared to the rest of the Imperium, as the musket is still in use among the natives. I mean you're free to think what you want, but there's nothing backing it up.
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May 8, 2014 16:54
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Vadoc posted:They weren't making demi-Primarchs, they were making new marines to replace their devastating loses. Fabius Bile though is the one trying to make a Chaos version of the Emperor. In deliverence lost corax was using primarch geneseed in the hopes of quickly building the raven guard. However the few new marines that were created before the Alpha Legion hosed everything up, were basically demi primarchs, the book goes on about how much faster, and stronger they are compared to the others.
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May 8, 2014 18:54
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I thought they were more "enhanced" (for want of a better word) than standard Marines, but that they were flawed and prone to mutation - that's what the Raptors were formed from (the Raven Guard ones, not the Chaos ones.)
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May 8, 2014 19:21
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That book is one of the worst things BL have published. It is nonsensical.
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May 8, 2014 19:54
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Speaking of things like this, what's the "official" status in the fluff of the Tau's attempts to reverse-engineer Space Marines?
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May 8, 2014 22:30
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berzerkmonkey posted:I thought they were more "enhanced" (for want of a better word) than standard Marines, but that they were flawed and prone to mutation - that's what the Raptors were formed from (the Raven Guard ones, not the Chaos ones.) Ahh i forgot about the prone to mutation part. Rapey Joe Stalin posted:That book is one of the worst things BL have published. It is nonsensical. Yeah it was pretty bad, sadly there have been much worse HH books.
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May 8, 2014 22:40
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I've decided to get back into my WHFB High Elves army, are there any good/average WH Fantasy books about elves?
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May 9, 2014 05:17
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berzerkmonkey posted:I thought they were more "enhanced" (for want of a better word) than standard Marines, but that they were flawed and prone to mutation - that's what the Raptors were formed from (the Raven Guard ones, not the Chaos ones.) Could they be what eventually becomes the Black Dragons? Heavily mutated and apparently big fans of Barraka from Mortal Kombat>
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May 9, 2014 07:08
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JerryLee posted:Speaking of things like this, what's the "official" status in the fluff of the Tau's attempts to reverse-engineer Space Marines? EyeRChris posted:Could they be what eventually becomes the Black Dragons? Heavily mutated and apparently big fans of Barraka from Mortal Kombat>
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May 9, 2014 13:50
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I always got the impression that the "cursed 13th founding" was more due to AdMech Biologis dudes just throwing stolen geneseed into a vat and mixing it all up because "that's how genes mix, amirite? <prayers>".
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May 9, 2014 14:45
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berzerkmonkey posted:Wait, what? I hope it's not a thing I just made up in my head. I could swear I read where they were trying to make their own Astartes or something.
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May 9, 2014 20:23
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Currently reading Legion. It is a good book.
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May 10, 2014 03:01
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