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mysterious frankie posted:The only way I can see it doing everything they promise, performance wise, is if they did a monumentally lovely job optimizing DX11 for the hardware and 12 is going to be the new ground up optimized api. Not only is that highly unlikely, all that does is underline that they released a console that they feel wasn't ready. And their current estimates have DX12 as still a year and a half away from being used in games.
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May 6, 2014 17:50
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univbee posted:Not only is that highly unlikely, all that does is underline that they released a console that they feel wasn't ready. And their current estimates have DX12 as still a year and a half away from being used in games. It seems pretty clear by now that the Xbox One was not meant to come out when it did, and that Microsoft pushed it out early so that they didn't end up being the PS3, and lagging behind a whole year. This probably wasn't helped by the fact that they had to completely reverse a lot of their decisions in the few months leading up to release, meaning they were working on less new things for it.
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May 6, 2014 17:53
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KittyEmpress posted:It seems pretty clear by now that the Xbox One was not meant to come out when it did, and that Microsoft pushed it out early so that they didn't end up being the PS3, and lagging behind a whole year. This probably wasn't helped by the fact that they had to completely reverse a lot of their decisions in the few months leading up to release, meaning they were working on less new things for it. PS3 turned out pretty great though in the end, and as major nelson said "its a marathon not a sprint" 
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May 6, 2014 18:21
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So are there any interesting games coming out before we get to wolfenstein and watch dogs? Or are we still waiting for the arcade/indie side to get up to speed and provide the market with some cheap(ish) time killers?
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May 6, 2014 18:40
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Bobtista posted:PS3 turned out pretty great though in the end, and as major nelson said "its a marathon not a sprint" Oh yeah, I think that it was a dumb decision for them to rush it out the door if it was unfinished like it seems to be. You can totally make up for a year of lost time in a 6-7 year generation. You can't make up for poisoning consumer good will and hamstringing your product to make it come out faster, though.
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May 6, 2014 18:40
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Sedisp posted:You keep saying that but having a less powerful machine doesn't mean you'll get a treasure trove of style over "pixels". Consoles not made by Nintendo haven't historically been a great place for style over graphics. That may change because of id@Xbox but as a lot of indie deva have indicated Microsoft is being really lovely about the whole thing. My point isnt that the bone is a better machine because it is slower and therefore magically makes devs more creative or something obviously stupid like that. My point is that at this point in the history of video games I prefer games that have great art direction over games that are pushing envelope in terms of whats possible in a lot of cases. And in the event that I did want the absolute best looking games in terms of envelope pushing technology, I would obviously get it on the PC rather than any console. But great art direction is great even on inferior technology, hence the reference to Wind Waker rather than a bone game. I agree that there arent a lot of instances on the bone of excellent art direction. Maybe Sunset Overdrive will break that trend, but its pretty far out to be speculating on. \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Yeah, its kind of unclear to me whats going on with the WiiU, hardware wise. Everyone seems to think that the GPU is substantially more powerful than the 360's, but that its maybe a little lacking in some other areas. Despite this, pretty much every cross platform game looks better on the 360. I guess it could be dev laziness and a lack of optimization for a console they know wont make up a huge portion of their sales. Its weird regardless. As to the other portion of your post, I understand that more power is more power and that more power is better. \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ WinnebagoWarrior fucked around with this message at 18:59 on May 6, 2014 |
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May 6, 2014 18:47
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WinnebagoWarrior posted:My point isnt that the bone is a better machine because it is slower and therefore magically makes devs more creative or something obviously stupid like that. My point is that at this point in the history of video games I prefer games that have great art direction over games that are pushing envelope in terms of whats possible in a lot of cases. Great art direction is great even on inferior technology, hence the reference to Wind Waker rather than a bone game. I agree that there arent a lot of instances on the bone of excellent art direction. Maybe Sunset Overdrive will break that trend, but its pretty far out to be speculating on. Well, again, you did pick the HD version. I realize that it has other things besides a higher resolution but it's not like the PS4 is only good at making higher resolutions, it's just a bigger graphics powerhouse and developers will naturally have more of everything available for use. For my money, a more powerful system is exactly what I want if I want pretty looking art, because I want to see the artist's vision in as clear detail as possible, not squashed and stretched. For what it's worth the Wii U is supposed to have a better graphics processor than the 360.
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May 6, 2014 18:51
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KittyEmpress posted:It seems pretty clear by now that the Xbox One was not meant to come out when it did, and that Microsoft pushed it out early so that they didn't end up being the PS3, and lagging behind a whole year. This probably wasn't helped by the fact that they had to completely reverse a lot of their decisions in the few months leading up to release, meaning they were working on less new things for it. With the consoles being so architecturally similar now I wonder if we won't see staggered hardware releases, and companies playing leap-frog with each other. You can design something and then spend the next 8-10 years beating or trailing your competitor hardware-wise, or you can wait and see what they release, and design something around that, but getting better components per dollar, guaranteed. Spending 4 years as the hot new premium console and 4 years as the huge-library-for-dirt-cheap console seems like a better deal than rolling the dice every 8 years to determine if your division (or company) will survive. Two whiffs in a row is a death sentence for any console manufacturer, and a lot of them only get one shot anyway.
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May 6, 2014 18:56
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fisheyel83l posted:With the consoles being so architecturally similar now I wonder if we won't see staggered hardware releases, and companies playing leap-frog with each other. You can design something and then spend the next 8-10 years beating or trailing your competitor hardware-wise, or you can wait and see what they release, and design something around that, but getting better components per dollar, guaranteed. Yeah if the plan is just to basically make a budget, gaming focused PC (as opposed to using goofy architectures and specialty hardware) theres no much of a reason they couldnt do this. \/\/\/\/\/ I am not saying that better hardware isnt better, I am saying that art direction matters more. Thats my only point. I dont why it is that everyone suddenly thinks that I cant grasp the basic concept of better hardware being better. I can. I understand that if the brilliant people who created the art for Windwaker made it on the PS4 it would look even better. I absolutely understand that. But they often dont. Nintendo makes lovely hardware and then some magicians make it sing. I think Windwaker looks better than Killzone even though Killzone is a technical marvel running on a much more powerful system. I think Second Son and Killzone demonstrate this very well. They both run on the same hardware at 1080p. But Killzones devs dont seem to have a great handle on art direction. They went for most pixels/highest framerates/best textures but none of its interesting. You spend a bunch of time running through nondescript hallways and enclosed train stations and locations like that and they rarely let their tech shine in any particularly interesting way. On the other hand, I wasnt ever blown away by screenshots of Second Son because most of the time, I got a most pixels/highest framerates/best textures but none of its interesting vibe from it as well. They locked themselves into the concept of making a realistic environment, which can be tricky to be overly creative with. But then they did wonderful things with the lighting and they got really creative with how the powers and particle effects look, and it ends up being a very interesting game visually and not just because of 1080p60 and all of that. You just know while playing it that the devs understand video games as a visual medium and that they were able to develop great technology and then actually fully realize it by actually having some great art direction. With Killzone, it never felt like they took that second step to me. The tech was there, but the interesting art rarely was. Having access to the best technology often makes developers lazy I think. People will get excited about a game like Killzone because on a technical level, its looks great. Textures look great, jaggies are in check, runs smoothly. Check, check, and check. WinnebagoWarrior fucked around with this message at 19:28 on May 6, 2014 |
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May 6, 2014 19:07
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But windwaker HD doesn't have significantly different art direction from the SD version. They added a better lighting model, shaders and a lot of bloom. All of which were made possible through better hardware. Artists are constrained by the tools at their disposal. The constraints force them to find creative ways to make the best looking game possible, but particularly for modern games based around realistic lighting and high quality textures, the better the hardware, the more closely the art direction can realize their intentions.
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May 6, 2014 19:10
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Basically. The great image quality of Windwaker HD has more to do with the improved assets, native resolution, new lighting engine, and probably added anti-aliasing. It helps that it has a stable 30 FPS frame rate. The reason Nintendo games get away with "good art styles" is because the art styles they choose to use are ones where they can provide clean visuals as well as high/stable frame rates. That's why any of the console Mario games play and look so good. But Mario benefits from the fact that there isn't a whole lot working in the background. I don't imagine the physics in Mario games being particularly complex or flooded with alpha textures. But even then, the improved specs of the Wii U allowed them to implement better dynamic lighting, better assets, and a higher native resolution for 3D Land. Better technology lets them achieve the visual style they want. quote:Having access to the best technology often makes developers lazy I think. People will get excited about a game like Killzone because on a technical level, its looks great. Textures look great, jaggies are in check, runs smoothly. Check, check, and check. Killzone Shadow Fall had a perfectly good art style for what it wanted to achieve. But it doesn't change the fact its a bad game - it launched with some offensively bad texture quality in some instances, pretty bad gameplay, completely uninteresting plot/story, and unlocked frame rates. But its a launch game so we forgive it for being rushed out. jeffreyw fucked around with this message at 20:14 on May 6, 2014 |
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May 6, 2014 19:35
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For me any big, graphically-amazing, single-player game I'll probably play on my PC (with the HDMI passthrough on the XB1 to my tv). Any multi-player type game(FIFA, BF4, Titanfall) I'll play on the XB1. I prefer multi-player on the console because of the lack of cheating and because the Xbros are the most fun to play with.
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May 6, 2014 20:12
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Goon posted:But windwaker HD doesn't have significantly different art direction from the SD version. They added a better lighting model, shaders and a lot of bloom. All of which were made possible through better hardware. I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing he bought Windwaker HD because it is not possible to buy Windwaker SD, unless you want to buy into Nintendo's abysmal marketplace (not sure if Windwaker is even offered on it). It makes no sense to say "gotcha!!" because he bought Windwaker HD instead of Windwaker HD. Obviously more power is better, but to make a last gen comparison, the graphical difference between TLOU (looks amazing) and Saint's Row 2 (looks like a sub-par PS2 game) isn't because programmers "figured out" the PS3 in the four years between the two games. It's because the guys doing TLOU are amazing artists, and the guys doing Saint's Row 2 were alcoholic high school dropouts. E: In case anyone doesn't know how terrible the Saint's Rows games look, e.g. 
Saladman fucked around with this message at 20:23 on May 6, 2014 |
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May 6, 2014 20:19
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^^^^^^ Also, this. People kept saying that I made a conscious effort to buy Wind Waker HD over SD and was therefore dumb and a hypocrite, but as far as I know I didnt have a choice in the matter and they were also missing my point. jeffreyw posted:
I would say that Killzones art style is 'fine'. Its not horrible, but basically nothing about that game is memorable, including the art style. Ryse is a pretty bad game, but the art was pretty great at times, and I do still remember certain sequences and how great they looked. Killzone is a marginally better game but the art is bland enough that I mostly remember things from that game like 'hey, another hallway' or 'why am I still running around on these traincars'. If you look through pre release screenies of Killzone, you would have know idea that such a big portion of the game takes place in confined spaces because the marketing folks were smart enough to release images featuring some more attractive set piece-type locations. \/\/\/\/\/You can buy windwaker sd on ebay but good luck playing it on a WiiU, which is the system I own and would have to play it on. And I said (like 5 times at this point) that I know that better hardware is better and matter for graphics and art style. And that my point was that despite running on massively inferior hardware, Windwaker looks phenomenal because of excellent art direction, even in comparison to many PS4 games. There is nothing to explain to me or convince me of. WinnebagoWarrior fucked around with this message at 20:51 on May 6, 2014 |
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May 6, 2014 20:36
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Windwaker is like 20 bucks on eBay was what I was getting at. I'm not pointing it out to call you dumb or a hypocrite, I am just trying to convince/show you that the technology matters even when you're mostly interested in a colorful cartoon man. It's not always obvious that that's true.
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May 6, 2014 20:43
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Never stop being reasonable, WinnebagoWarrior. We need more like you.WinnebagoWarrior posted:Having access to the best technology often makes developers lazy I think. People will get excited about a game like Killzone because on a technical level, its looks great. Textures look great, jaggies are in check, runs smoothly. I always sense something like this under the surface in PC (master race) "discussions" but it's never addressed, because MORE POWER. Please, explain at length why I am in error, PC gamers (master race.)  Tim 'The Toolman' Taylor posted:I understand that more power is more power and that more power is better.
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May 6, 2014 21:59
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univbee posted:And their current estimates have DX12 as still a year and a half away from being used in games. That time frame really bums me out too, if only because I'm so curious as to what exactly this is gonna frickin do for the system. While reading an article about it I saw it was to be released during the holiday season and got excited and then saw that it was holiday season 2015. I sort of shuffled around the neighborhood, kicking a can, for a couple hours after that.
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May 6, 2014 22:21
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:Never stop being reasonable, WinnebagoWarrior. We need more like you. Please explain why a less powerful machine is more desirable than a more powerful machine. Doesn't have to be console related, just assume "generic computing device". Consider also the scenario where the more powerful machine is somehow more affordable.
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May 6, 2014 23:14
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Bobtista posted:Please explain why a less powerful machine is more desirable than a more powerful machine. Doesn't have to be console related, just assume "generic computing device". Power consumption.
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May 6, 2014 23:22
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:Never stop being reasonable, WinnebagoWarrior. We need more like you. I'd honestly answer you but I am unaware of any 'error' you have made so can't, apart from that I am unsure as to what you are asking / point you are making. Also, why do you keep typing (master race)?, it looks quite odd.
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May 6, 2014 23:30
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Bobtista posted:Please explain why a less powerful machine is more desirable than a more powerful machine. Doesn't have to be console related, just assume "generic computing device". Cognitive dissonance.
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May 6, 2014 23:33
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withoutclass posted:Power consumption. Doesn't this only apply to portables? Don't get me wrong, having a system suck down 800 watts isn't fun and I would trade down in that scenario. That said, increasing load will almost always increase power consumption. The optimizations we see today is the ability of the CPU/GPU to spin up and down quickly, along with smaller chips. People generally pay for lower power consumption in increased costs and lowered performance for portables, but I've never seen it be called a selling point for performance desktop/console hardware.
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May 6, 2014 23:37
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withoutclass posted:Power consumption. http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/173127-ps4-xbox-one-power-consumption-analysis-points-to-sony-advantage-and-future-efficiency-gains PS4 barely uses more. E: vvv welp
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May 6, 2014 23:42
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SparkPeople posted:Doesn't this only apply to portables? In case you didn't get the reference, this was a stated reason as to why the WiiU is designed the way it is. No, it doesn't make any sense. Yes, Nintendo thought this was a huge issue.
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May 6, 2014 23:42
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:I always sense something like this under the surface in PC (master race) "discussions" but it's never addressed, because MORE POWER. Please, explain at length why I am in error, PC gamers (master race.) The PC has to run an OS + other additional programs and cannot be coded to the metal like a console can, because there isn't a set hardware platform to work off. You need more power on a PC because it can do more than play video games and be an awful internet browser.
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May 6, 2014 23:45
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Microsoft announced their E3 time/date. Monday, June 9 beginning at 9:30 AM PDT.quote:You can stream Xbox: Game On live beginning on June 9 at 9:00 AM PDT with our pre-show coverage on Xbox.com, Xbox Live, and Windows Phone globally. You can also watch Xbox: Game On on Spike TV in the U.S. and Canada at 9:30 AM PDT. Same time/date as they always have it. 1 month 2 days to go  .edit: Killer Instinct Combo Breaker pack is on sale for 25% off. Ronald Duck fucked around with this message at 00:34 on May 7, 2014 |
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May 7, 2014 00:02
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WinnebagoWarrior posted:I would say that Killzones art style is 'fine'. Its not horrible, but basically nothing about that game is memorable, including the art style. Ryse is a pretty bad game, but the art was pretty great at times, and I do still remember certain sequences and how great they looked. Killzone is a marginally better game but the art is bland enough that I mostly remember things from that game like 'hey, another hallway' or 'why am I still running around on these traincars'. If you look through pre release screenies of Killzone, you would have know idea that such a big portion of the game takes place in confined spaces because the marketing folks were smart enough to release images featuring some more attractive set piece-type locations. That's not an art problem. That's a GAME DESIGN problem you are describing. "Hey another hallway" is a problem associated with games that have bad level design that cannot achieve what they want. This is nothing to do with the art style they choose, its a product of focus testing. You really can't say that bad game/level design and bad art direction are one and the same because that's basically what you're saying right now. The real problem of Killzone Shadow Fall, not some mysterious "art style" problem, is that its as mechanically uninteresting as Crysis 2 or 3. You don't remember anything about it because all of the setpieces have been done, but better, in most games and the game design is mediocre (horrible in the case of K:SF) enough that you don't give a poo poo about the game.
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May 7, 2014 00:53
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Has anyone noticed odd behaviour with the pass through HDMI on the Xbone? I have a Raspberry Pi running XBMC and I recently switched it to use the Xbone pass through (instead of my 360) to save myself from changing inputs since we only really use the XBMC and the Xbone. Anyways, while I can start a video and it will play all the way through and even subsequent shows in the queue, the second I try to go home or stop the video using my Android remote, the screen goes black/blank and it appears as though the XBMC dies. To fix it, I can disconnect the HDMI plug and plug it back in or pull the power to XBMC. When I do either option, I get a split second of video feed showing me what should have been on the screen before I reset. This also occurs when the XBMC goes to sleep, it just refuses to wake up and the screen stays completely black. This only happens when running through the Xbone and I don't understand what would be causing it. While I can just switch it back to being plugged directly into the TV, it's really nice to be able to snap to watch shows while Titanfall is loading or for stupid games like Peggle where I don't need the game to be full screen and I get some TV show background noise.
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May 7, 2014 02:33
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A c E posted:Has anyone noticed odd behaviour with the pass through HDMI on the Xbone? I've not had any issues but I only have my cable box thru the hdmi. There's another indie game coming out shortly, and like super time force and max curse of brotherhood, there's very little time between announcement and launch. http://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-one-s-first-sub-10-game-launching-this-week/1100-6419461/ I hope these types of surprises continue. Ninjitsu also came thru id@xbox.
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May 7, 2014 03:00
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A c E posted:I have a Raspberry Pi running XBMC and I recently switched it to use the Xbone pass through (instead of my 360) to save myself from changing inputs since we only really use the XBMC and the Xbone. Anyways, while I can start a video and it will play all the way through and even subsequent shows in the queue, the second I try to go home or stop the video using my Android remote, the screen goes black/blank and it appears as though the XBMC dies. To fix it, I can disconnect the HDMI plug and plug it back in or pull the power to XBMC. When I do either option, I get a split second of video feed showing me what should have been on the screen before I reset. This also occurs when the XBMC goes to sleep, it just refuses to wake up and the screen stays completely black. edit: Oh god what am I doing in this thread. Abort! Abort!
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May 7, 2014 03:11
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Crafty posted:I've not had any issues but I only have my cable box thru the hdmi. Yeah so far it's just the Pi causing problems, though I've come across some posts here and there of people having issues with cable boxes while googling. Shadow Puppet Of posted:I've fought with crazy Rpi+hdmi behaviour myself, and the first places I'd look are hdmi_force_hotplug and then config_hdmi_boost in config.txt Thanks. I'm fairly certain I have hdmi_force_hotplug enabled on my other Pi that's hooked up to a dumb TV, so I'll give those a shot on the Xbone one to see if it helps.
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May 7, 2014 03:26
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A c E posted:Has anyone noticed odd behaviour with the pass through HDMI on the Xbone? I've heard of that happening if the HDMI in device doesn't play audio. After a few seconds of silence the Xbox stops updating the video feed. Playing a looping white noise supposedly fixes it http://www.codewhirl.com/2013/11/xbox-one-hdmi-in-screen-freezing/ You could also try quitting out of the TV app as a short term fix rather then having to unplug cables. Menu button on the dashboard lets you quit out of games/apps.
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May 7, 2014 04:09
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jeffreyw posted:That's not an art problem. That's a GAME DESIGN problem you are describing. "Hey another hallway" is a problem associated with games that have bad level design that cannot achieve what they want. This is nothing to do with the art style they choose, its a product of focus testing. Don't get me wrong, killzone had terrible level design on top of mediocre art direction but there are ways to make mundane levels interesting with fantastic art. Spec ops:the line springs to mind immediately. The definition of great art covering every inch of terrible levels.
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May 7, 2014 04:44
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:I always sense something like this under the surface in PC (master race) "discussions" but it's never addressed, because MORE POWER. Please, explain at length why I am in error, PC gamers (master race.) I'm not sure what you want people to explain. Your sentence doesn't really make sense in the context of what you responded to. 
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May 7, 2014 06:33
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Chick3n posted:I've heard of that happening if the HDMI in device doesn't play audio. After a few seconds of silence the Xbox stops updating the video feed. Playing a looping white noise supposedly fixes it http://www.codewhirl.com/2013/11/xbox-one-hdmi-in-screen-freezing/
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May 7, 2014 07:05
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Wiggly Wayne DDS posted:If that's the case Settings -> System [Advanced or above] -> 'Keep audio device alive' should workaround the problem. No idea why the hell they're using the indirect audio method. That's actually interesting; they really designed it for a cable box, something which is on and sending a signal 24/7 even if the TV isn't, and didn't really explicitly design it for use with anything else. univbee fucked around with this message at 13:25 on May 7, 2014 |
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May 7, 2014 13:19
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Chick3n posted:I've heard of that happening if the HDMI in device doesn't play audio. After a few seconds of silence the Xbox stops updating the video feed. Playing a looping white noise supposedly fixes it http://www.codewhirl.com/2013/11/xbox-one-hdmi-in-screen-freezing/ Audio is going through the HDMI, although I guess the menu would be silent. Good point. Also quitting the TV app is much easier thanks. gently caress getting up and unplugging poo poo.
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May 7, 2014 13:34
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Sunset Overdrive First Look trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMnjoqr5glk A number of sites also have hands-on impressions of Sunset Overdrive: http://www.gamespot.com/articles/in-xbox-one-exclusive-sunset-overdrive-energy-drinks-are-evil/1100-6419496/ http://au.ign.com/articles/2014/05/08/sunset-overdrive-open-world-adventures-in-the-awesomepocalypse http://kotaku.com/our-first-real-look-at-sunset-overdrive-1573151521 Sunset Overdrive looks like a cartoony Dead Rising to me. Really liking the art style. Nutjitsu is out (America only I think). It runs as an app not a game. http://majornelson.com/2014/05/08/nutjitsu-is-now-available-on-xbox-one/ quote:Technologically, we are the first to release an Xbox One game that can run like an app. This means you can watch a movie or play another game, then switch over to Nutjitsu for a few minutes without closing your other activity. I tried out of the free version of Nutjitsu on PC and it's not a very good game. I am hoping that Bejeweled or Hexic or another good puzzle game comes out as a similar "app". Something simple and quick that I can play while waiting for my proper game. Halo 5 tease? "30s ago - Halo 5 - Infinity Slayer on Haven" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pN4OUiXaxs&t=50s
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May 9, 2014 01:10
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Sunset Overdrive looks like it's the Saint's Row to Dead Rising's GTA. I can't decide if that's something I want right now or not, but it's certainly an interesting proposition.
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May 9, 2014 01:41
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Funkmaster General posted:Sunset Overdrive looks like it's the Saint's Row to Dead Rising's GTA. I can't decide if that's something I want right now or not, but it's certainly an interesting proposition. Yeah, that looks way more interesting to me then I was thinking.
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May 9, 2014 02:32
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