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Iseeyouseemeseeyou posted:You are one of three consistently bringing it up. I'm not in this thread to read your armchair analysis of authors. I don't know if I've actually posted here in months and I also don't really care what you are here for I guess?
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May 8, 2014 23:26
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less laughter posted:Or you could just recommend books based on their literary quality instead of because of the writer's gender or race, which is pretty insulting and condescending? If N.K. Jemisin had been a white man, her books would suddenly not be worth recommending? I'm pretty sure she would want you to recommend her to others (if at all) based on the quality of her books and not her gender or race, even if only used as a first sifting, and doing so anyway only proves you have actually learned and/or understood absolutely nothing from the books you have read. I'm pretty sure nobody here will recommend books just because the writers is a woman, it is of course also necessary that the book itself is good. Luckily, it turns out that those books are often extremely good despite them often having more trouble getting noticed/published because they are not the safe renowned white male choice the publishers/advertisers know. In a sense, my feeling is that people sometimes mention N.K. Jemisin being female/black not because they think that alone merits you to read her book, but rather because they want to emphasis that she's good despite not being part of nor is similar to the established/renowned white male writers everybody knows. Or at the very least, that's why I would sometimes mention stuff like that. That doesn't mean I think anybody who doesn't read female writers is sexist (although everybody should honestly read female writers, they're really good), just that I think too many people stay in their comfort zone of renowned authors. Basically, it all boils down to female writers not getting the attention they deserve and people trying to rectify that. Related: everybody should read Catherynne M. Valente. The Orphan's Tales for example is amazingly good.
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May 8, 2014 23:34
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I've finished reading all the books in Susan Matthews' Jurisdiction series and I can't figure out why I got so absorbed in these. Has anyone else read these and what was your take? If you haven't, the books follow a professional State sanctioned torturer (who is a MD - a job requirement) and his odd relationship with his thralled Security Team.
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May 8, 2014 23:37
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Within the last couple weeks I finish The Goblin Emperor and Ancillary Justice. I thought Ancillary Justice was terrific. Well written, interesting concept, neat universe building. All in all you can see why its been nominated for just about everything this year. Goblin Emperor has been highly recommended elsewhere here, but I wasn't blown away. It was still very well written, just a bit to pat I suppose. Also suffered from fantasy naming syndrome, and while I appreciate the effort to which the author made the naming / noble system an explicable part of the world, it was still a bit off putting at times.
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May 9, 2014 00:06
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Personally I think the thread should talk about authors as well as works of SF/F, it should provide a ground for this kind of discussion. Ornamented Death, Cardiovorax and General Battuta (and whoever else), I'm glad you're posting important stuff about authors and politics of the SF/F community in here. Keep it up! Iseeyouseemeseeyou, maybe go to /r/printSF where every thread is "recommend me books about [thing here]" and the replies are all just lists of titles.
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May 9, 2014 00:17
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I think people should discuss whatever the hell they want to discuss about scifi/fantasy in the discuss poo poo about scifi/fantasy thread; turns out right now we wanna talk more about non-straight white male authors, and that's dope, maybe later we'll want to do comparisons between Orson Scott-Card and Terry Pratchett, that's dope too why not.Walh Hara posted:Related: everybody should read Catherynne M. Valente. The Orphan's Tales for example is amazingly good. systran, you mentioned Maureen F. McHugh - what would be the best "start here" book by her? Should I just jump into China Mountain Zhang, or is there something that better encapsulates her style?
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May 9, 2014 00:25
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I have never found a Valente book that didn't take me real effort to get into, but whenever I put that effort in it was always super rewarding. She's one of my very favorite writers.
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May 9, 2014 00:27
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Hedrigall posted:Personally I think the thread should talk about authors as well as works of SF/F, it should provide a ground for this kind of discussion. Bolding stuff doesn't make you any more correct, it just looks shouty and childish. Also the fact remains that this forum is the Book Barn, not the Politics Pavilion.
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May 9, 2014 00:42
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The business of writing science fiction and fantasy right now is tangled up in a lot of politics and political discussion - and, really, it always has been. If you want to talk about the books then you get the politics. You were concerned that this discussion would drive out literary discussion and lead books to be recommended on criteria other than merit. Hopefully the last few posts here have explained that the actual effect is to expand the literary discussion and help books be recommended on merit.
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May 9, 2014 00:43
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I'm currently reading Lilith's Brood (the whole trilogy in a single ebook) by Octavia Butler. Though I'm only halfway through the second book, I've already picked out its major themes. It's a wonderful subversion of the alien invasion/assimilation concept, full of nuances more masculine takes often fail to consider. I hate to divide it that way, but gender is something deeply integral to this series. It's about being conquered, and how people come to terms with the loss of their culture, identity, and social norms. Lilith herself comes to both hate and love her alien handlers, and never loses that internal conflict even as she comes to see them as family. The human men in the series have a much harder time adapting than the women (though their reactions are not strictly divided along gender lines because Butler fully understands people are more complicated than that), but generally they react to their loss of power with resistance and even violence. Sex comes into play because both man and woman must be penetrated by the ooloi (a genderless genetic engineer), if they're to have children, because all humans have been sterilized (alien males and females can't have children without the ooloi either, so it equalizes all in a way). Their children, on both the alien and human side, are hybrids—mostly humanoids with tentacles. Even so, the fact that the invaders are both gentle and kind, and are culling the aspects of humanity that make us so violent, makes it difficult to side with the few humans who choose instead to beat each other to death to sate their impotent rage. Butler makes us see the aliens as people, and the hybrids as human—just different—as they're forced to evolve. There's no attempt to demonize anyone, even the violent dicks, and I love that. Also, Butler's ideas and presented worldview are so close to mine that I hope people reading my stuff someday don't think I'm ripping her off, but I'm so glad stuff like this is already out there for me to read and enjoy. General Battuta posted:I have never found a Valente book that didn't take me real effort to get into, but whenever I put that effort in it was always super rewarding. She's one of my very favorite writers. I've been reading some of her short stories based on your recommendation, and I find her an utter joy from the first sentence on. I don't normally even like prosey stuff, but it's so damned good. Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 01:23 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 01:09
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specklebang posted:I've finished reading all the books in Susan Matthews' Jurisdiction series and I can't figure out why I got so absorbed in these. Has anyone else read these and what was your take? Matthews has managed to make those books both really awkwardly uncomfortable to read in parts and impossible to put down. She's written some very good explorations of ethical and personal issues. Her setting is very interesting, and subtly alien in a lot of places. They work on base 8, not 10 and have a slightly different timekeeping system. It does a good job of keeping the reader unsettled. Also the main character's people are basically Poles in Space. She's got sample chapters up, http://www.susanrmatthews.com
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May 9, 2014 01:13
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General Battuta posted:The business of writing science fiction and fantasy right now is tangled up in a lot of politics and political discussion - and, really, it always has been. If you want to talk about the books then you get the politics. I think you could do a better job of framing your arguments supporting your recommendations, tbh. A lot of your recommendations ITT boil down to "read these books, they are written by women" while a better way of selling them is something more to the effect of "read this book because (e.g.) it has really well-rounded and interesting characters, beautiful prose, innovative writing, mindboggling ideas, thrilling plots, and btw it's also by a woman, which you might not have read or heard that much from." That is what people look for in a book and would do more to entice someone to check them out than just stating the writer happens to be of a certain gender or race that is marginalized in your perception. It has never actually inspired me personally to follow up on one of your recommendations and check out the books you mention, and just seems counterproductive. The focus should be first and foremost on the qualities and merit of the work. For instance, I'm a fan of Susannah Clarke and Helene Wecker, but I think everyone should read them because their books are awesome, stunningly written and filled with brilliant ideas and unforgettable characters, not because I want to further my own political agenda or something like some people here seem really hung up on doing. This is just an internet forum for book geeks and nerds, not a political platform of any significance whatsoever. So it just seems weird and a huge waste of time to fruitlessly keep trying to turn it into one, as well as actively drive other people away who just come here to talk and read about SF/F books and maybe pick up a few good recommendations here and there along the way.
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May 9, 2014 01:17
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I don't think the points you make in either of your paragraphs - recs tend to be identity driven, and people being driven away - are substantively true. I'm always happy to point out when the thread falls into a white male rut, but most of the recs made here, mine included, are delivered pretty much the way you describe: content first. Identity only tends to come up when an author says something lovely or when the thread collapses into monoculture for pages at a time. Trying to get people to read more widely is never a waste of time, no matter where it's done. What you're calling a political agenda is just a basic fight for equal recognition that a lot of authors have to confront. And yes Octavia Butler owns. Everyone probably knows already, but someone recently unearthed a few unpublished short stories of hers, so we'll get one more posthumous release.  Stuporstar posted:I've been reading some of her short stories based on your recommendation, and I find her an utter joy from the first sentence on. I don't normally even like prosey stuff, but it's so damned good. Prosey is a really good term for her writing. Have you tried Palimpsest or The Orphan's Tales? Both of them were so dense at the sentence level that I found myself having to pause and come up for air, and the Orphan's Tales also has a very complex nested structure. But both of them pay off with extraordinary beauty. She has a knack for bittersweet endings that feel totally earned. I wish she knew how to teach that style - God knows I've tried to imitate it - but I think it's something she does almost by instinct. General Battuta fucked around with this message at 01:31 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 01:27
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General Battuta posted:Trying to get people to read more widely is never a waste of time, no matter where it's done. What you're calling a political agenda is just a basic fight for equal recognition that a lot of authors have to confront. This is a political agenda pretty much by literal definition. It's odd that you can't even see that for yourself anymore.
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May 9, 2014 01:31
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All these pinko commies tryin' ta take away my red-blooded white-skinned American sci-fi 
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May 9, 2014 01:42
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less laughter posted:This is a political agenda pretty much by literal definition. It's odd that you can't even see that for yourself anymore. It's your agenda too! Like you said earlier - a book should be recognized simply on the basis of its merit. Being a particular kind of person shouldn't give you a bonus or malus to your chances of getting recognized, read, and talked about. Unfortunately we don't live in a world where that's possible right now. Like Cardiovorax said, not everyone has the ability to say 'my identity is irrelevant to how I'm treated'. Octavia Butler should be a household name like Arthur Clarke, going off the quality of her work. If we want to treat her equitably based on the merit of her work, then we need to talk about her more than we do now. And that means people have to bring her up.
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May 9, 2014 01:42
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Hedrigall posted:All these pinko commies tryin' ta take away my red-blooded white-skinned American sci-fi Literally nobody has posted anything of the sort during this discussion, so you're just straw manning.
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May 9, 2014 01:50
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General Battuta posted:Octavia Butler should be a household name like Arthur Clarke, going off the quality of her work. If we want to treat her equitably based on the merit of her work, then we need to talk about her more than we do now. And that means people have to bring her up. I'm down with talking about her a million times more. I just finished Fledgling and I haven't read a book that wears its themes so proudly in a long time. Giving your hypersexual vampire the body of a ten year old is such a risky thing to do, but I really think she pulled off a potentially jacked up trope brilliantly. gently caress yeah you should be creeped out - vampires are goddamn creepy abusive fucks. God, what a good read.
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May 9, 2014 02:01
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less laughter posted:Literally nobody has posted anything of the sort during this discussion, so you're just straw manning. Alternatively, satire.
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May 9, 2014 02:03
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Whalley posted:I'm down with talking about her a million times more. I just finished Fledgling and I haven't read a book that wears its themes so proudly in a long time. Giving your hypersexual vampire the body of a ten year old is such a risky thing to do, but I really think she pulled off a potentially jacked up trope brilliantly. gently caress yeah you should be creeped out - vampires are goddamn creepy abusive fucks. God, what a good read. Fledgling was my first Butler book. I was leery going in since I heard she didn't think it was her best, but I totally agree with you. It's an incredibly effective story because it lulls you into comfort with the narrator and what she does. Sure, she can make her symbiotes happy, but that happiness is itself a kind of coercion; sure, she offers them choice, but it's a choice undermined by addiction.
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May 9, 2014 02:10
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Alternatively, satyr.
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May 9, 2014 02:13
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General Battuta posted:It's your agenda too! Like you said earlier - a book should be recognized simply on the basis of its merit. Being a particular kind of person shouldn't give you a bonus or malus to your chances of getting recognized, read, and talked about. Octavia Butler is loving fantastic. I have several of her books in paperback, and a while ago, Kindle did a special on nearly everything she ever wrote and I got them all. The Parable of the Sower was one of the better dystopian novels I have read for a long, long time, in large part because it's a hell of a lot more realistic in many ways than a lot of the stuff that's come out more recently. I have one of those dystopian "box sets" on my Kindle, and most of them don't even come close. I read Parable of the Sower before I read McCarthy's The Road, and I thought Parable was by far the better book insofar as creating a plausible scenario goes. One female author who doesn't get much press and really deserves better is Melissa Scott. She has put a lot of her books on Kindle recently. The world-building of Five-Twelfths of Heaven is great, very original even twenty years after its original publication (and it's currently $2.99 at Amazon). Sometimes she's categorized as a "gay" author, but I found that while her books do often include LGBT characters, sometimes even as the main character, sexuality is an attribute, not a focus. Another unsung female writer is PC Hodgell. God Stalk is also wildly original. I believe the first two books, God Stalk and Dark of the Moon, are included in this Kindle edition. You have got to love a heroine who attempts to use a charm to speed the rising of bread and instead causes the loaf to develop rudimentary internal organs. I would love to discuss these authors if anyone else has read them. Edit: mixing up my parable titles Zola fucked around with this message at 12:16 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 02:17
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Ornamented Death posted:No, but once they start using their fame to spread their horrible opinions, you should probably feel morally compelled to stop contributing to that fame. The harm you allege, even if extant in a given case, is so diffuse and indirect as to be de minimis, so I'm not going to feel bad about reading things I enjoy, sorry.
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May 9, 2014 04:31
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Whalley posted:
I really really liked China Mountain Zhang. It helps that I minored in Chinese, have lived in China, and my wife is Chinese; but I think most people recommend that as her best work and a good intro to her. I also read Nekropolis, which I didn't like as much, but it did a great representation of what it would be like to flee somewhere like North Korea where you knew your family or friends could be killed or tortured etc. just because you left. I'm too tired to join all the discussion now, but I didn't care too much for Ancillary Justice and want to write some wall of text about it later tomorrow.
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May 9, 2014 05:47
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Zola posted:Octavia Butler is loving fantastic. I have several of her books in paperback, and a while ago, Kindle did a special on nearly everything she ever wrote and I got them all. The Parable of the Talents was one of the better dystopian novels I have read for a long, long time, in large part because it's a hell of a lot more realistic in many ways than a lot of the stuff that's come out more recently. I have one of those dystopian "box sets" on my Kindle, and most of them don't even come close. I read Parable of the Talents before I read McCarthy's The Road, and I thought Parable was by far the better book insofar as creating a plausible scenario goes. Should I need to read Parable of the Sower before talents?
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May 9, 2014 05:49
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systran posted:I'm too tired to join all the discussion now, but I didn't care too much for Ancillary Justice and want to write some wall of text about it later tomorrow. Please do. It's still on my to-read pile, so I'm interested to hear a critical take on it.
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May 9, 2014 06:43
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Fried Chicken posted:I'm guessing it doesn't snow much where you live because this is exactly wrong. You turn into the skid. No, it comes out later this year. Personally, I think the concept sounds somewhat depressing. Not sure I'm going to read it.
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May 9, 2014 08:40
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Neurosis posted:The harm you allege, even if extant in a given case, is so diffuse and indirect as to be de minimis, so I'm not going to feel bad about reading things I enjoy, sorry. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
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May 9, 2014 12:01
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CaptCommy posted:Should I need to read Parable of the Sower before talents? Yes, I was talking about Parable of the Sower. Parable of the Talents is the second book, not sure why I mixed up the titles. 
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May 9, 2014 12:15
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If we are talking Octavia Butler you have to mention Kindred. It is the best time travel novel I have ever read. It does away with all the illusions about the past and simultaneously handles suicidal depression in a real way.
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May 9, 2014 12:45
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Stuporstar posted:Please do. It's still on my to-read pile, so I'm interested to hear a critical take on it. Ancillary Justice isn't a bad novel, and I don't really think you should take it off your to-read pile, but I feel like it tried to do a few too many things and suffered for it. I liked that it was a sci-fi novel that focused on characterization. Even though the protagonist is the sole surviving fragment of a warship (an ancillary), there are no super boring military sci-fi battles like you might expect. It also doesn't fall so in love with its concept of ancillaries that it gets heavy-handed with expo dumping or world building at cost of the plot. The author does, I feel, fall too in love with the idea of this culture she created. I read this book maybe four months ago, so I don't even remember the name or many details of the culture; I think if it had been more interesting I would have remembered. Things I do remember are: There are no gender distinctions in that the language doesn't specify genders, and you don't have to dress or look your gender. You can wear whatever you want, and people from that culture actually have a hard time knowing which gender is which in other cultures. This is a fairly cool idea, but as almost the sole interesting thing she thought up for this culture, it felt like she had to keep reminding you of this since there was very little else interesting to mention. This culture also had an intricate system of pins or medals (can't remember which) where you could tell a lot about someone's family or history by looking at their pins/medals. Again, this is something that may have been cool in passing and if it weren't overdone, but as one of the few interesting things about this culture, I feel like every time a character was introduced we had to read another wikipedia article about these pins/medals. The central idea of this culture is that it just conquers others and then absorbs aspects of them into itself. I would think with having absorbed so many other cultures that it would have felt much more fleshed out and alive than it did. The plot is decent, and it's split up into two time frames. Part of the time is when the protagonist was still the full ship, and the rest is after, during which the protag is developing their relationship with a former officer on the ship. In the latter time frame the protagonist is basically just one single human, but one who remembers being an entire ship and multiple people. The relationship between these two characters was okay...but it wasn't interesting enough to have left much of an impression on me. The officer is struggling with an addiction and doesn't want to do anything, and the protagonist wants to help this addict but doesn't really understand why. The protag's main objective is to assassinate someone, and this addict person gets in the way. In the parts where the protagonist is still a ship, there is a lot of political stuff going on which explains the protag's motivations for wanting to do this assassination. Again, these are kind of interesting: They show you a planet which has recently been conquered and is being assimilated into this culture. You see some of the insurgency type stuff that happens, and some of the cultural hurdles. There's also fairly visible character development of the protagonist; they are very different as a full ship as compared to an individual person. While I'm glad there is no military sci-fi bullshit, since the protag's main goal is an assassination, you have some people shooting each other. Most of the shooting takes the form of a sentence that is just like, "She shot her." This is fine, and I don't really care, but since this the plot arc is building up to an assassination, you have an author who doesn't want to write detailed action scenes building up to what will have to be an action scene. Fortunately the real climax is mostly in the form of a conversation, but then you have an obligatory "she shot at them a lot," action scene which is tacked onto it. I enjoyed the novel most of the time I was reading it, and I didn't feel tempted to stop reading. I did feel very let down by the ending, which basically just sets up a second book. I feel this story and concept would have been much stronger as a standalone novel. As is, it sacrifices a lot to keep itself open-ended enough for (probably too many) sequels. If all the sequels were already out, I would not have instantly bought the second book. I likely would have looked online at reviews of the second and third books and checked to see what people said. This book will seem a lot better if the consensus on this series of books ends up being: "The first book is a good introduction to all the concepts, but the second and third book take those ideas and really do something with them." If, on the other hand, people say: "The first book was amazing, but the second and third just seem to exist since the first one got so much critical acclaim, and the author didn't really know where to go from here," then everything this book sacrificed to set up sequels will hurt it. Right now there is only one book though, so the lackluster ending will have no pay off until at least a year down the line. angel opportunity fucked around with this message at 13:33 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 13:29
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systran posted:This is a fairly cool idea, but as almost the sole interesting thing she thought up for this culture, it felt like she had to keep reminding you of this since there was very little else interesting to mention. I noticed this, too. It stuck out as unnatural because the main character kept remarking on it over and over again, long past the point where it should have just rolled with it. The concept also doesn't really come across well as written in English - the internal monologue would go "Man I sure do hope I give this person the right gender when I say this gender-loaded phrase to her!" and then that phrase would be "Yo, what's up?" Tiny Timbs fucked around with this message at 14:09 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 14:05
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I didn't find myself at all interested in the prospect of a sequel to AJ, personally, even with the hook ending. The future events promised didn't sound especially interesting, and I think a lot of readers and writers are too averse to letting superficially major events stand outside the narrative of the book itself. To me the story felt complete. I don't think I'll read the sequel unless it reviews better than the first. As to the book itself, the characterisation of Seivarden failed to convince me and in general its imaginative reach exceeded its grasp. It's not a book I'm sad to see winning awards but I'd be surprised if it was really the best book of last year, and it certainly doesn't deserve the sweep it's been making so far. Definitely hits all the right buttons for modern SF criticism though. Anyone else here read Servant of the Underworld? I've been impressed by Aliette de Bodard's short stories but I didn't think she was able to manage the tonal shift past the halfway point. Once Neutemoc is saved the new threat didn't convince me and the story gradually became a world-saving fantasy adventure rather than the lower-key mystery it had been before, which was unwelcome. Longer and ultimately larger in scope than it needed to be.
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May 9, 2014 14:05
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systran posted:Ancillary Justice isn't a bad novel, and I don't really think you should take it off your to-read pile, but I feel like it tried to do a few too many things and suffered for it. I think this paragraph sums up my feelings very well. I was actually invested in the plot to some extend, perhaps because I was sure the initial plan couldn't possibly succeed and I wanted to know where it would go. But despite enjoying the book I feel like I might actually forget about it by the time the sequel it set up comes out, which probably isn't a good sign.
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May 9, 2014 14:11
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Ornamented Death posted:Whatever helps you sleep at night. I need help sleeping at night. Because an author I read might have an offensive opinion. It leads to me waking up cold, sweat running down my brow. This involves something where I wake up thinking the opinion might be offensive, then I check Tumblr, then I double check the author feels that way.
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May 9, 2014 15:19
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Everyone who has ever read Heart of Darkness should gouge out their eyes because they have read something with offensive opinions. OD has shown me the way.
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May 9, 2014 15:23
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So I'm reading Leviathan Wakes right now and it owns, however I think I've seen a few occasions in this thread where people have slighted the sequels. Would someone mind recapping why they aren't as good? Trying to decide if I should continue with this series after the first book or not. Also, are they bad in the way Red Skies and Republic of Thieves are bad compared to Lies of Locke Lamora? I make that comparison because I still enjoyed them quite a bit and thought they were good books despite not living up to quality of the first one. I'm curious if the rest of the Expanse plays out that way or if they're actually just plain bad.
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May 9, 2014 15:28
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Cpt. Mahatma Gandhi posted:So I'm reading Leviathan Wakes right now and it owns, however I think I've seen a few occasions in this thread where people have slighted the sequels. Would someone mind recapping why they aren't as good? Trying to decide if I should continue with this series after the first book or not. I think the main problem with the sequels is that the series wasn't originally planned to be longer than a few books, but the success of LW resulted in the series expanding from 2 or 3 books to 5 books. Thus the story got padded / stretched out.
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May 9, 2014 15:40
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Neurosis posted:Everyone who has ever read Heart of Darkness should gouge out their eyes because they have read something with offensive opinions. OD has shown me the way. The amusing part of this discussion is that, for a forum dedicated to reading, several people have shown they have absolutely no reading comprehension.
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May 9, 2014 16:05
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Ornamented Death posted:The amusing part of this discussion is that, for a forum dedicated to reading, several people have shown they have absolutely no reading comprehension. There's a lot of hyperbole and talking past the other side, which isn't unusual. I do think it's a little silly that you think pirating an author's ebook (thus giving them no money) and reading it will make the author think they have more power or something. I guess that relies on you then talking about the book and/or recommending it to others (like here, with John C Wright in the past page or two)? So admittedly that can happen, but one can also read terrible genre fiction in solitude and filled with shame, as is proper. Also I'm sure this is old news to everyone here, but I never read or saw anything about John C Wright til now, and holy poo poo he's perfect: 
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May 9, 2014 16:47
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