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Thorton is mad because when he signed up for AP he thought he was going to be doing secret agent stuff to help America.  He thought he was going to be a good guy working for good guys. Maybe doing morally ambiguous things sometimes, but doing it for a good cause. His first mission was quietly tracking down a terrorist who killed a bunch of innocent civilians -- good guy stuff.Over the course of the game he uncovered a metric poo poo tonne of corruption. His agency is in bed with big business military industrial complex guys. They are conducting missions to deliberately destabilize allies. For example, Taiwan is our ally, we shouldn't be trying to assassinate their leaders, start riots, or start a shooting war with China. Risking WWIII so a private company can increase profits, because AP analysts have the hubris to think they can predict and control the results. The terrorist didn't steal the missiles that killed all those civilians, Halbrech gave them to him so he could commit acts of terrorism. Less importantly the agency is incredibly wasteful, with so many absurdly luxurious "safe houses" and loving command centers all over the world sitting completely idle that no one even notices when Thorton moves in. Thousands, maybe even millions, of innocent people are going to die to increase Halbrech's profits. And everyone in charge at AP headquarters is okay with that. They are even helping. That is bad guy stuff. Like, boardering on super-villian levels of shitiness. So he's mad about that. Oh, and they keep trying to kill him. He's probably mad about that too.
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May 8, 2014 17:27
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Scuzzywuffit posted:All right! I'm not sure why Mina thought I would be mad about that, given the missiley stuff that happened in Saudi, but that makes a lot of sense. It's difficult for everybody to figure out, because basically every character in the game is lying. And not in the normal video game way where you go "Aha! I caught you lying and now you explain what's going on!", but rather lying in real life where people are actually good at it and you may never even know, and they probably don't even realize they're being lied to as well. The Steven Heck Theory is an amazing example of this, as it's something that isn't even hinted at in the game whatsoever.
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May 8, 2014 17:28
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Quick rundown on The Steven Heck Theory: Leland knows who Steven Heck is. Doesn't that strike you as odd? Heck doesn't work with AP and there's no indication Halbech owns any other covert US agencies. (The NSA for example seems to be actively trying to neutralize them.) And Heck claims to be off the records for the CIA. We can't prove or disprove that, but between the two, I'd start looking at Heck with a bit of suspicion that he's on Halbech's payroll. Now consider this. Anyone on Halbech's payroll and thus committed to Halbech's goal of ensuring Sung is assassinated, he'd have two goals. 1) Keep this rear end in a top hat Mike Thorton off the trail. And 2) Keep the Taiwanese Secret Police off the trail as well. Whoever orchestrated that did excellently while you and Omen Deng chase each other around. Think about how hard that would be to pull off. For one thing, it'd be really important to me if I were trying to coordinate something that difficult that everyone coming into Taipei checked in with me so I can keep an eye on all the variables. How did bogus information get into Mike's hands? Through Hong Shi. Why would Hong Shi have any interest in dropping Sung? He could have his motives but we get nothing. The biggest gain he gets is having Thorton drop his rivals. Wouldn't it be handy if Heck got the bogus information to Mike through Hong Shi and in exchange, offered Mike's services to secure Hong's control over the Triad? None of this is airtight, and if Heck is on Halbech's payroll we have to assume that by the end he's switched sides because he sees how things are panning out. But I think it's at least very plausible and explains a couple otherwise unexplained items. It also means Heck has been faking his whimsical murderloving persona specifically because it deflects suspicion. One more thing. There's a news report about a missing Taiwanese Security Bureau officer, now presumed dead. You know who else has probably been missing a few days? Wen. For what it's worth, I asked Chris Avellone about it on Twitter and he basically said he couldn't tell me but "it's totally like Heck to do that." I took it to mean "that wasn't intended but, I like it a lot. It fits." So maybe it's legit. Maybe it's just a fun headcanon. I don't know. But it adds a lot of depth to an otherwise very two-dimensional character.
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May 8, 2014 17:52
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Crappy Jack posted:It's difficult for everybody to figure out, because basically every character in the game is lying. And not in the normal video game way where you go "Aha! I caught you lying and now you explain what's going on!", but rather lying in real life where people are actually good at it and you may never even know, and they probably don't even realize they're being lied to as well. The Steven Heck Theory is an amazing example of this, as it's something that isn't even hinted at in the game whatsoever. Yeah, I read up on the Stephen Heck Theory, and I actually totally buy it. Bits of Taipei don't seem to fit together otherwise. In a way, I think I almost had more trouble with people telling me the truth than lying to me. My first playthrough, I was well-liked by almost everybody, so a lot of the people who betrayed me told me about it. The game feels so responsive that I feel like Thorton has the same responses to things that I do, but then when somebody tells me they saved my life and it's a Big Deal that I can literally murder them over, I get confused. One further question, speaking of lies and stuff: Does Albatross ever betray you? I was actually sort of surprised, because assuming you work with him, I haven't seen anything inside or outside the game that indicates that he's anything less than straight with you, which makes him somewhat unique. Even when you bug the G-22 warehouse in Taipei, he just asks you to take them down, but I didn't notice the bug telling you anything incriminating about him. Also, how do I avert the tragic news for dog lovers? I'm assuming the puppy fraud is perpetrated by one of the black-market characters (Grigori or Surkov — it doesn't seem like Brayko's style), but I'm not sure which.
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May 8, 2014 17:56
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Not to mention that Heck is pretty quick to completely throw you under the bus if he doesn't like you by framing you for Sung's assassination. If he and you are pals he probably decides he likes Thorton more than Halbech and backstabs them instead.
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May 8, 2014 17:59
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one thing that I still don't understand after 4 playthroughs is what the original goal was for the Saudi missions. Halbech sells missiles to Shaheed. Shaheed uses them to blow up airplanes. Tension in the region increases. From Halbech's point of view, Mission Accomplished. Why did AP get involved to take out Shaheed? And why did AP target an arms dealer who turns out (in the ending credits) to be instrumental in destabilizing the region - and as such is an asset to Halbech - to get to Shaheed? Everything else in Saudi can get explained - destroy the missiles to avoid anyone knowing that it was Halbech tech that was used in the terrorist strike, find shaheed by bugging an airfield and searching an Al Samad camp for logistical information (and being very in-your-face with their military deployment pushes Al-Samad to retaliate against US targets) but the core reason for being there is lost to me. double nine fucked around with this message at 18:04 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 18:00
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Oh and asking you to remove the data the National Security Bureau has on him. That doesn't really mean he's working for anyone one way or the other, but if the other stuff in the theory is true, I'd certainly want that data gone!
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May 8, 2014 18:01
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Scuzzywuffit posted:All right! I'm not sure why Mina thought I would be mad about that, given the missiley stuff that happened in Saudi, but that makes a lot of sense. When Mina says she was the one who burned you she means she was the one who launched the missiles. Also, backing up the Heck theory: Heck knows that Scarlet was the assassin. They were on Halbech's pay roll too.
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May 8, 2014 18:01
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Genetic Toaster posted:When Mina says she was the one who burned you she means she was the one who launched the missiles. does heck actually state that in the endgame? It's been a while so i've forgotten (and I've found triggering Scarlet's confession can be difficult)
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May 8, 2014 18:06
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double nine posted:one thing that I still don't understand after 4 playthroughs is what the original goal was for the Saudi missions. Halbech sells missiles to Shaheed. Shaheed uses them to blow up airplanes. Tension in the region increases. From Halbech's point of view, Mission Accomplished. Maybe because Shaheed knows where he got the missiles? It is important for Halbech that the american public believes that Halbech is an innocent victim of theft. Martyr Shaheed and someone else will step up to lead his group.
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May 8, 2014 18:07
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double nine posted:does heck actually state that in the endgame? It's been a while so i've forgotten (and I've found triggering Scarlet's confession can be difficult) He brings it up but only if they show up in the final confrontation and Heck kills them.
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May 8, 2014 18:08
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Yeah, Shaheed is pretty willing to rat out Halbech, I can see why Halbech would want him dead once he was no longer useful.
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May 8, 2014 18:10
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I thought that Alpha Protocol would have welcomed Thorton back if it weren't for Mina. I could have sworn Parker even says something like that. It's not like Thorton had any idea what was going on at that point.
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May 8, 2014 18:11
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Yeah, it would also seem pretty wasteful to hire this promising new operative just to get him killed.
Accordion Man fucked around with this message at 18:16 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 18:14
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Genetic Toaster posted:He brings it up but only if they show up in the final confrontation and Heck kills them. Yeah, his response is along the lines of "You didn't know? I figured you were just playing along or something", which at first sounds like a typical Steven Heck thing to say about a thing he had no idea about, but assuming he ACTUALLY knew, it's also pretty drat. Heck basically sums up the whole game for me, because it's equally likely that he's either just a crazy person with no sense of morality or loyalty who just does whatever sounds the most fun, or else he is legitmately the single greatest intelligence operative of all time and operates on a level Thorton can't even comprehend, and both of those outcomes are just as likely. And the game never tips its hand one way or the other.
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May 8, 2014 18:15
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Welp now I'm gonna have to re-install AP for another play-through. Thanks a lot you assholes. EDIT: Where is the best place for guides nowadays? I never did manage to get the daughter of the scientist dude to tell me that he was her father. I did follow a guide once and still didn't get it, which might be a bug or might be a bad guide. I definitely wanna get that part of the ending on this run-through. Also the fact that I can't remember their names means It's been long enough that I've forgotten most of the plot. Which is always a bonus considering AP isn't loved for it's gameplay. PootieTang fucked around with this message at 18:21 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 18:17
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Crappy Jack posted:Yeah, his response is along the lines of "You didn't know? I figured you were just playing along or something", which at first sounds like a typical Steven Heck thing to say about a thing he had no idea about, but assuming he ACTUALLY knew, it's also pretty drat. I feel like the cold side of Heck we see if you get him to sell Thorton down the river is a pretty strong indication of some hidden savvy.
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May 8, 2014 18:18
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Genetic Toaster posted:When Mina says she was the one who burned you she means she was the one who launched the missiles. In that case, assuming that the missiles were sent by Mina herself and not sanctioned/planned by Halbech or Alpha Protocol, how does Shaheed know to warn me about them if I let him live?
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May 8, 2014 18:24
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Scuzzywuffit posted:In that case, assuming that the missiles were sent by Mina herself and not sanctioned/planned by Halbech or Alpha Protocol, how does Shaheed know to warn me about them if I let him live?
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May 8, 2014 18:29
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Scuzzywuffit posted:In that case, assuming that the missiles were sent by Mina herself and not sanctioned/planned by Halbech or Alpha Protocol, how does Shaheed know to warn me about them if I let him live? Shaheed is not a naive little baby man, and knows that everyone involved will sell you out if it gives them the slightest advantage. They want Shaheed dead to keep secrets. If you let him live and learn secrets, then of course they will want you dead too. Of course they will.
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May 8, 2014 18:30
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Angela Christine posted:Shaheed is not a naive little baby man, and knows that everyone involved will sell you out if it gives them the slightest advantage. They want Shaheed dead to keep secrets. If you let him live and learn secrets, then of course they will want you dead too. Of course they will. Nobody knows that you (can) let Shaheed live though. It's specifically something you can drop on Parker as an example of poo poo he didn't anticipate. I can buy that Halbech wants to blow you up just to tie up loose ends, and that Shaheed knows them well enough to anticipate this, but it makes less sense if Mina sent the missiles. I don't think he knows about the existence of Alpha Protocol; he's always just making vague terroristy statements about America and Halbech. So to warn you specifically about the missile attack, he would have to 1) know about Alpha Protocol, 2) know that it had been infiltrated by the NSA (which Alpha Protocol didn't even seem to know), and 3) know that she was going to launch missiles dangerously close to the person she was attempting to work with for like, no reason.
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May 8, 2014 18:50
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PootieTang posted:Welp now I'm gonna have to re-install AP for another play-through. Thanks a lot you assholes. I've been wanting to do another playthrough for a while but I usually wind up starting, playing through the first set of missions, and then quitting. The problem is that I am tired of going stealth / pistol / martial arts, but I am terrible at game and can't make any other approach work.
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May 8, 2014 18:59
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titties posted:I've been wanting to do another playthrough for a while but I usually wind up starting, playing through the first set of missions, and then quitting. The problem is that I am tired of going stealth / pistol / martial arts, but I am terrible at game and can't make any other approach work. Shotguns/assault rifles work fairly well, I've found. You do have to be a bit careful not to stir up the hornets nest until after you've stealth-killed a few guys to make the fight a little easier. Also take those portable medkits with you.
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May 8, 2014 19:03
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Scuzzywuffit posted:Nobody knows that you (can) let Shaheed live though. It's specifically something you can drop on Parker as an example of poo poo he didn't anticipate. I can buy that Halbech wants to blow you up just to tie up loose ends, and that Shaheed knows them well enough to anticipate this, but it makes less sense if Mina sent the missiles. I don't think he knows about the existence of Alpha Protocol; he's always just making vague terroristy statements about America and Halbech. So to warn you specifically about the missile attack, he would have to 1) know about Alpha Protocol, 2) know that it had been infiltrated by the NSA (which Alpha Protocol didn't even seem to know), and 3) know that she was going to launch missiles dangerously close to the person she was attempting to work with for like, no reason. I thought that Mina tells you to get down because the missiles are incoming?
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May 8, 2014 19:03
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titties posted:I've been wanting to do another playthrough for a while but I usually wind up starting, playing through the first set of missions, and then quitting. The problem is that I am tired of going stealth / pistol / martial arts, but I am terrible at game and can't make any other approach work. The issue for me is that pistols are the only non-lethal weapon, so if you're playing any non-murder-machine Thorton, you're pretty much required to use at least one of those for any level with people you don't want to kill. I had a pretty good experience using SMGs with backup tranq pistol as Frat Douche Recruit Thorton, but I was playing on easy. Pretty sure next up is Incredible Beard Veteran Shotgun Punchmaster Thorton. Edit: GO gently caress YOURSELF posted:I thought that Mina tells you to get down because the missiles are incoming? She does this either way, but if you let Shaheed live, he tells you to get far away before you tell Westridge he's dead, because poo poo's about to go down. Scuzzywuffit fucked around with this message at 19:10 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 19:07
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Reading all this makes me nostalgic for the game again, or at least, the concept of the game, and how the plot played out and information was revealed. I miss it, and I'm sad to know there probably won't ever be anything quite like it. But in some ways that is a good thing. Maybe something new and better can get made because of it, some day 
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May 8, 2014 19:16
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evilmiera posted:Reading all this makes me nostalgic for the game again, or at least, the concept of the game, and how the plot played out and information was revealed. I miss it, and I'm sad to know there probably won't ever be anything quite like it. But in some ways that is a good thing. Maybe something new and better can get made because of it, some day This is definitely one of those games I wish other games borrow from a bit more. Telltale's Walking Dead and Fables games both take the general gameplay concepts of AP dialogue and branching storyline and run with them, and while you won't get the same rush from seeing every little decision pay off, you still get really invested in a story. Really I'd like to see the industry get away from 80 hour linear epic stories and get more involved with 6 hour, highly reactive ones. But then you can't slap "80 hours of gameplay" on the box, even with 70 of those hours being terrible boring filler.
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May 8, 2014 19:35
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double nine posted:Shotguns/assault rifles work fairly well, I've found. You do have to be a bit careful not to stir up the hornets nest until after you've stealth-killed a few guys to make the fight a little easier. Also take those portable medkits with you. You get a surprisingly high nonlethal count as Shotgun rear end in a top hat Thorton, too, given that the stomps don't kill!
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May 8, 2014 19:35
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Crappy Jack posted:This is definitely one of those games I wish other games borrow from a bit more. It was pretty interesting to hear Sean Vanaman on one of the recent Idle Thumbs talk about The Walking Dead dialog system being heavily cribbed from Alpha Protocol. I mean it's obvious for anyone who's played either game but I don't think I heard them admit it before.
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May 9, 2014 01:30
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Crappy Jack posted:This is definitely one of those games I wish other games borrow from a bit more. Scuzzywuffit posted:Nobody knows that you (can) let Shaheed live though. It's specifically something you can drop on Parker as an example of poo poo he didn't anticipate. I can buy that Halbech wants to blow you up just to tie up loose ends, and that Shaheed knows them well enough to anticipate this, but it makes less sense if Mina sent the missiles. I don't think he knows about the existence of Alpha Protocol; he's always just making vague terroristy statements about America and Halbech. So to warn you specifically about the missile attack, he would have to 1) know about Alpha Protocol, 2) know that it had been infiltrated by the NSA (which Alpha Protocol didn't even seem to know), and 3) know that she was going to launch missiles dangerously close to the person she was attempting to work with for like, no reason. Hypocrisy posted:I thought that Alpha Protocol would have welcomed Thorton back if it weren't for Mina. I could have sworn Parker even says something like that. It's not like Thorton had any idea what was going on at that point. Scuzzywuffit posted:All right! I'm not sure why Mina thought I would be mad about that, given the missiley stuff that happened in Saudi, but that makes a lot of sense.
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May 9, 2014 01:53
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PootieTang posted:Welp now I'm gonna have to re-install AP for another play-through. Thanks a lot you assholes. Max out Martial Arts, Toughness and Technical Aptitude. Fill all of your pockets with First Aid kits and Epinephrine spikes. Run through each level at full speed, kneeing everyone in the face.
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May 9, 2014 02:15
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Crappy Jack posted:Yeah, his response is along the lines of "You didn't know? I figured you were just playing along or something", which at first sounds like a typical Steven Heck thing to say about a thing he had no idea about, but assuming he ACTUALLY knew, it's also pretty drat. He said he thought you were just playing along to get in her pants. Very classy, he thought. I've always kind of assumed Heck was ex-AP who went off the reservation. I mean, you get information about a rogue CIA operative in Taipei at the listening post if you read all the computers. Considering standard conservation of detail rules, that's probably Heck. Remember how Alpha Protocol recruits get listed? Further tilting me to the position was how easy it was to completely erase Heck's past. One database and he's gone? In today's society? Someone had to do some wiping earlier. Which fits pretty well with general Alpha Protocol work patterns. Not saying it's an airtight case, but it seemed plausible.
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May 9, 2014 04:48
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Accordion Man posted:Yeah, it would also seem pretty wasteful to hire this promising new operative just to get him killed. Remember how much Darcy complains about how the Saudi op was supposed to be his until you came along and they gave it to you? Darcy's dad is a US Senator on military appropriations committees (or something along those lines, been a while since I played the game). They brought you in and put you on the mission because they don't want to get Darcy killed in the missile strike.
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May 9, 2014 05:28
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since Darcy presumably already knows the deal and is cool with it, they probably wouldn't have tried to kill him, and might have just not wanted to risk losing the son of a senator on a risky mission.
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May 9, 2014 14:00
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I love that this thread is still active like this years after this games release.
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May 9, 2014 14:45
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I still love how there's a game where there's so many interpretations as to what the truth actually is. Even if you uncover everything in the game, you still don't know the whole story (though you can of course make educated guesses, such as the Heck Theory). I'd love to see a second game like this, set in a different era - Cold War Germany, for example, or Second World War Italy. Or hell, a couple of decades into the future, in a new cold war.
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May 9, 2014 17:30
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A prequel during the Cold War focusing on Deus Vult would have been cool if Sega didn't own the rights. I really wish Obsidian would make a spiritual successor, it doesn't even really need the combat just the conversation system. Accordion Man fucked around with this message at 17:39 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 17:35
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I still say they need to combine the engine of Alpha Protocol with their skill at adapting animated franchises with South Park, and make the greatest Archer video game possible.
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May 9, 2014 18:11
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Yeah a story on the Rise and Fall of Conrad Marburg would be excellent.
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May 9, 2014 18:43
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So Brayko is running at approximately a million miles an hour around the arena, and I can't seem to find a way to fix that, any thoughts?
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May 9, 2014 21:01
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