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Amergin posted:I 1) did some cursory research to see which job markets were doing well and which paid the best in terms of entry-level positions, 2) went to a college the offered to pay my full tuition after busting my rear end in high school, over many other colleges that I would have preferred, 3) worked summer internships every year while in college at local companies, and 4) switched majors from Comp Sci to Psych with 1.5 semesters left as Comp Sci wasn't teaching me anything useful and, through my internships, I already had a guaranteed entry-level position waiting for me upon graduation.
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May 13, 2014 17:15
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Amergin posted:All I'm saying is there are options available. In many cases the cards are so stacked against you that you can't really be blamed, sure. In many other cases it's due to laziness or a lack of wanting to research other options. I'm not accusing those in this thread of either one, I just wanted to know more context. Y'know, would it really kill you to just be generally sympathetic? Do you really have to judge each person case-by-case to decide if they're truly worthy of your sympathy?
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May 13, 2014 17:18
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Nessus posted:My commendations on your wisdom, virtue, and fortune. Are you trying to save souls? Is your testimony here going somewhere, perhaps "these kids should just deal with it?" Maybe he realizes that systemic fixes aren't in the offing, so it's better to hustle than it is to lie there like a beached whale with a Doctor Who shirt stretched over its helpless form.
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May 13, 2014 17:18
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hobbesmaster posted:Just slightly more transparent than we have now. Perhaps, but I have a hunch that it's easier to fix a student loan crisis than an indentured servitude crisis. Still, thank you for the genuine non-trolling response. The less folks I have to put on ignore, the better.
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May 13, 2014 17:21
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SedanChair posted:Maybe he realizes that systemic fixes aren't in the offing, so it's better to hustle than it is to lie there like a beached whale with a Doctor Who shirt stretched over its helpless form. Honestly though, do you really not think that's what most of us are doing/have done? lothar_ posted:Perhaps, but I have a hunch that it's easier to fix a student loan crisis than an indentured servitude crisis. Still, thank you for the genuine non-trolling response. The less folks I have to put on ignore, the better. I'm honestly curious why you'd consider it indentured servitude to have a 5 year contract with a company that agrees to train you (I'm assuming they're also paying you of course). Is it due to possible abuse, or is it just the principle of the thing? Talmonis fucked around with this message at 17:24 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 17:21
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SedanChair posted:Maybe he realizes that systemic fixes aren't in the offing, so it's better to hustle than it is to lie there like a beached whale with a Doctor Who shirt stretched over its helpless form. It feels like the goal really is to get the suffering to confess that the suffering is of their own making so that a perception of justice in the world can be retained.
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May 13, 2014 17:22
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Talmonis posted:Honestly though, do you really not think that's what most of us are doing/have done? Based on the overall tenor of alcoholism, despair and suicidal ideation in the thread, I wouldn't lay odds.
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May 13, 2014 17:24
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I just think it's kind of hosed up that we expect 18 year old kids to make rational decisions about their future straight the gently caress out of high school. I would've done college so differently if I'd have had the slightest inkling where I would end up and what my professional interests would be in my mid-thirties. But then again, I expect the vast majority of people feel the same way. Here in Texas, the stated goal of our el-hi public education program is to send every kid to college. It's just the stupidest goal imaginable for public education. There are, or should be, plenty of jobs that deliver a decent quality of life with security for the future that require vocational training that can be done at the high school level, or through paid apprenticeships. If you want every kid to get two to four years of education beyond 12th grade, add grades on to public school.
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May 13, 2014 17:24
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SedanChair posted:Maybe he realizes that systemic fixes aren't in the offing, so it's better to hustle than it is to lie there like a beached whale with a Doctor Who shirt stretched over its helpless form. So have you switched from 'no literally murder the bankers' to some kind of random post generator made up of their favorite buzzwords? "Gah you just have to hustle and network and then everything will be fixed"
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May 13, 2014 17:24
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SedanChair posted:Based on the overall tenor of alcoholism, despair and suicidal ideation in the thread, I wouldn't lay odds. Life itself is pretty good for me and mine so I'm pretty far from despair, but I can definitely see how American politics lead a lot of folks to drink.
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May 13, 2014 17:29
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Talmonis posted:I'm honestly curious why you'd consider it indentured servitude to have a 5 year contract with a company that agrees to train you (I'm assuming they're also paying you of course). Is it due to possible abuse, or is it just the principle of the thing? Well... Wikipedia posted:Indentured servitude was a voluntary labor system whereby young people paid for their free passage to the New World by working for an employer for a certain number of years. Replace "the New World" with "industry" and...
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May 13, 2014 17:30
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When did I say everything will be fixed? Most of us will fail in spite of trying. That doesn't mean you should sit around and not try.
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May 13, 2014 17:30
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America isn't about having the freedom to pursue your own dreams and ambitions, it's about the freedom to choose which elite will decide to support your existence as you pursue the fulfillment of their dreams and ambitions. Be happy you're given any slice of the wealth consolidated pie at all.
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May 13, 2014 17:33
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Don't ever engage sedanchair in conversation. It leads nowhere and you'll just get mad.
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May 13, 2014 17:34
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zoux posted:I just think it's kind of hosed up that we expect 18 year old kids to make rational decisions about their future straight the gently caress out of high school. I would've done college so differently if I'd have had the slightest inkling where I would end up and what my professional interests would be in my mid-thirties. But then again, I expect the vast majority of people feel the same way. Yeah, Texas' priorities for public education are abysmal. The Legislature is not going to help and neither is the Governor's office; since the priority of both is just to cut taxes. The only hope is the Judicial branch. Hopefully, the court's can put in place guidelines and mandates for reform of our public education system; that's not a good choice though since any final decision may take years to implement. radical meme fucked around with this message at 17:44 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 17:39
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Nessus posted:Fair enough to advocate on looking at ways to do things now, but there's a difference between "Why not consider picking up a skill or trade for free/cheap in your free time?" Which is exactly what my original post was, "Why are you doing grad school instead of considering picking up a skill or trade to supplement your income and help pay for loan debt?" zoux posted:I just think it's kind of hosed up that we expect 18 year old kids to make rational decisions about their future straight the gently caress out of high school. I would've done college so differently if I'd have had the slightest inkling where I would end up and what my professional interests would be in my mid-thirties. But then again, I expect the vast majority of people feel the same way. I agree completely. The current resources given to 18 year olds to prepare them for making large decisions like going to college/which college is pitiful. Student loan debt needs to be fixed, I agree, but a lot of debt could be avoided if we put more effort and resources into personal finance classes in high school coupled with more and better counselors to help students (and their parents) make these decisions. And the article/C-SPAN discussion I referenced was talking about your second point: Should we keep going down this path of making post-secondary education mandatory while simultaneously implicitly (arguably explicitly) steering kids away from trades, apprenticeships and other forms of post-high school education? Because to me, the idea of "solving the student loan issue" can easily be coupled with "make college education 'free'" (Scandinavia!) which is only going to discourage people from trades more, or at the very least waste their time for four years before they consider going into a trade. Rather than absolving people of their debt, let's help future generations make better, more informed decisions and give them more choices and encourage them to explore those other choices.
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May 13, 2014 17:39
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When I was depressed and unemployed for six months last year watching my savings evaporate because I couldnt find a position in my then field after a client acted in bad faith and left us all without work, I had never thought to consider that it was all my fault and I was a bad person for being unable to find work. Thanks, Amergin!
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May 13, 2014 17:40
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Some choice picture selection from reuters.
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May 13, 2014 17:43
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Maybe we should realize that 18 year olds are adults and honestly counsel them that unless they have a full ride or a detailed plan backed up with the ability to follow through, they're better off without the degree and without the debt.
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May 13, 2014 17:45
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Amergin posted:I 1) did some cursory research to see which job markets were doing well and which paid the best in terms of entry-level positions, 2) went to a college the offered to pay my full tuition after busting my rear end in high school, over many other colleges that I would have preferred, 3) worked summer internships every year while in college at local companies, and 4) switched majors from Comp Sci to Psych with 1.5 semesters left as Comp Sci wasn't teaching me anything useful and, through my internships, I already had a guaranteed entry-level position waiting for me upon graduation. So, let me get this straight. 1. You did research in an area fraught with bullshit and riddled with bubble economics so whether or not the information you find is actually useful is often based entirely on luck. When I first went to college going to law school was broadly seen as a ticket to wealth and was broadly advised by guidance counselors and people in the know. Many resources will tell you STEM STEM STEM STEM STEM!!!! until they're blue in the face. 2. You were smart, hard-working, and lucky enough to get a scholarship that handled the entire problem we're talking about for you. I guess if you're only a middling student you can get hosed? 3. This is intelligent and reasonable. 4. For people who are actually taking out loans to pay for their entire education, tacking years onto their education to shift tacks midway through can be ruinous. Not as ruinous as graduating and not being able to find work at all, true, but shelling out another five digits and a couple years out of your life because you "picked wrong" is some hot bullshit. I'm really happy for you that you are smart and hard-working enough to have found success in your life, but I really can't understand how you can't feel empathy for people who find themselves hosed by this.
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May 13, 2014 17:46
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radical meme posted:Yeah, Texas' priorities for public education are abysmal. The Legislature is not going to help and neither is the Governor's office; since the priority of both is just to cut taxes. The only hope is the Judicial branch. Hopefully, the court's can put in place guidelines and mandates for reform of the way we our public education system is run; that's not a good choice though since any final decision may take years to implement. Oh the courts are about to rule, again, that the public education system in Texas violates the constitutional requirement that state education be equitable and effective. This happens all the time; the courts rule public education sucks and the Legislature has to fix it, the Legislature tries to shuffle around a bunch of existing money and raise accountability standards and try to find zero cost solutions to the what I will charitably call the education "problem" in the state. Republicans will pronounce the problem fixed and then every school district in the state will sue the state for violating the state constitution and the pattern will repeat. Since I graduated college in 2002 and started following Texas politics closely, there have been six Legislative sessions. When the 2015 session starts, in 3 out of the seven sessions, the Legislature has been under a court order to fix the public education system to conform with constitutional requirements. They have failed every time, and will fail this time as well, because the solution to the problem is two-fold: a) statewide property tax, which is forbidden by the Constitution and has no where near enough support to be amended out of the state charter b) a poo poo load more tax revenue, which again is a non starter. zoux fucked around with this message at 17:50 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 17:48
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SedanChair posted:Maybe we should realize that 18 year olds are adults and honestly counsel them that unless they have a full ride or a detailed plan backed up with the ability to follow through, they're better off without the degree and without the debt. Unfortunately to be qualified for a low pay career as a guidance councillor you need a master's. It's almost as if they're trying to convince themselves of their own worth...
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May 13, 2014 17:49
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Amergin posted:Which is exactly what my original post was, "Why are you doing grad school instead of considering picking up a skill or trade to supplement your income and help pay for loan debt?" quote:Because to me, the idea of "solving the student loan issue" can easily be coupled with "make college education 'free'" (Scandinavia!) which is only going to discourage people from trades more, or at the very least waste their time for four years before they consider going into a trade. Rather than absolving people of their debt, let's help future generations make better, more informed decisions and give them more choices and encourage them to explore those other choices.
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May 13, 2014 17:51
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Kanos posted:So, let me get this straight. Actually, 3. is only reasonable if you have a full ride scholarship or full ride parents so you don't have to work at Hardees during the summer in order to afford food during the school year.
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May 13, 2014 17:52
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While people can harp on the fact that people could consider going into trades instead of college all they want, it seems to me as someone who admittedly hasn't looked into it in detail that a lot of the big trade unions have limited openings for apprenticeships. I recall reading about one of the major unions (don't recall which one) receiving way more applicants for apprenticeships at their yearly hiring thing than they had openings. Unless I'm misremembering or that union is unusual in that regard it doesn't seem that wanting to go into a trade is any more guaranteed than going to college.
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May 13, 2014 17:52
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Nessus posted:The person who you were addressing, it seems, had already gone to graduate school, though it's possible I've conflated posters in my head. I thought he was responding to a poster that seemed to be starting or continuing grad school almost for the sake of deferring loan payment. That would be insane.
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May 13, 2014 17:53
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hobbesmaster posted:Unfortunately to be qualified for a low pay career as a guidance councillor you need a master's. It's almost as if they're trying to convince themselves of their own worth... When he says "counsel them" I sincerely doubt he meant via the High-School guidance counciller. I've yet to meet one who was worth speaking to.
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May 13, 2014 17:53
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zoux posted:Oh the courts are about to rule, again, that the public education system in Texas violates the constitutional requirement that state education be equitable and effective. This happens all the time; the courts rule public education sucks and the Legislature has to fix it, the Legislature tries to shuffle around a bunch of existing money and raise accountability standards and try to find zero cost solutions to the what I will charitably call the education "problem" in the state. Republicans will pronounce the problem fixed and then every school district in the state will sue the state for violating the state constitution and the pattern will repeat. Could the judiciary ever just take the next step and order taxes or something? Maybe Judge Dredd is needed.
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May 13, 2014 17:56
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Nessus posted:Why are these things mutually exclusive? Because how are you going to tell future generations "Yeah, we absolved your parents/grandparents of their debt because of a combination of a terrible system, lack of information and their poor financial choices. YOU still have to pay for college and have the ability to get into debt, and we won't absolve you of it, but we'll help you make more informed to make better choices." How will that not lead to "Well if I get into an expensive university without the intention of paying for it, it's cool since the government will pay for it down the road anyway."? Stultus Maximus posted:Actually, 3. is only reasonable if you have a full ride scholarship or full ride parents so you don't have to work at Hardees during the summer in order to afford food during the school year. Those internships were paid, not for credit. I worked hard to help pay for college and had essentially no spending money for pretty much my entire college career.
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May 13, 2014 17:57
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zoux posted:Oh the courts are about to rule, again, that the public education system in Texas violates the constitutional requirement that state education be equitable and effective. This happens all the time; the courts rule public education sucks and the Legislature has to fix it, the Legislature tries to shuffle around a bunch of existing money and raise accountability standards and try to find zero cost solutions to the what I will charitably call the education "problem" in the state. Republicans will pronounce the problem fixed and then every school district in the state will sue the state for violating the state constitution and the pattern will repeat. So that's why Rick Perry goes around the country talking about Texas. He's trying to attract talent his state has trouble producing!
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May 13, 2014 17:58
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effectual posted:Could the judiciary ever just take the next step and order taxes or something? Maybe Judge Dredd is needed. Judges are elected in partisan elections in Texas so you tell me.
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May 13, 2014 17:59
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Amergin posted:
Half of internships are unpaid, champ.
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May 13, 2014 18:00
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Nessus posted:Why are these things mutually exclusive? Why are we talking to strangers on the Internet instead of addressing this stuff to folks who matter? Off to take my own advice; later folks!
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May 13, 2014 18:00
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Amergin posted:Because how are you going to tell future generations "Yeah, we absolved your parents/grandparents of their debt because of a combination of a terrible system, lack of information and their poor financial choices. YOU still have to pay for college and have the ability to get into debt, and we won't absolve you of it, but we'll help you make more informed to make better choices." In fact as a more general question, I'm curious, has MORAL HAZARD ever actually been shown to be a thing that happens outside of edge cases and, I suppose, the banking industry? Because it always seems to get cited for really lovely things like "we can't pay for Poors' health care, then they'd just go jump off bridges for the sake of a free vacation in a traction ward!"
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May 13, 2014 18:03
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Iunnrais posted:My current job made it perfectly clear that they will refuse to hire someone who does not have a degree-- even to answer the phones. My job pays better than being a retail clerk, but on the other hand, it doesn't pay enough to actually repay my loans and pay rent at the same time. Before getting this job, I was turned down for years for not having a degree. Then I got a degree, and I got a job. But again, see: "doesn't pay enough to repay loans". I'm going out on a limb and saying that any employer paying less than $30k a year is always in the wrong, automatically.
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May 13, 2014 18:03
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Iunnrais posted:My current job made it perfectly clear that they will refuse to hire someone who does not have a degree-- even to answer the phones. My job pays better than being a retail clerk, but on the other hand, it doesn't pay enough to actually repay my loans and pay rent at the same time. Before getting this job, I was turned down for years for not having a degree. Then I got a degree, and I got a job. But again, see: "doesn't pay enough to repay loans". The bank, for giving you that loan in the first place.
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May 13, 2014 18:03
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Hey guys, just swinging by to tell you that it's hard to fix systematic abuses by institutions against individuals and an entire generation of Americans. But they dressed like they were asking for it and it's easier to blame them, so
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May 13, 2014 18:06
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Kanos posted:So, let me get this straight. ooh, oooh, pick me, I know! Psychological researchers have found that more money is correlated with lower empathy. Look up the work of Paul Piff, especially his TED talk on the subject, but also an article in New York Magazine called "The Money-Empathy Gap", which summarizes things quite nicely. The rich also tend to fall prey to self-serving bias and the fundamental attribution error more regularly. And "self-made" people who used to be poor or middle class are actually uniquely vulnerable to this as they become successful.
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May 13, 2014 18:07
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lothar_ posted:Why are we talking to strangers on the Internet instead of addressing this stuff to folks who matter? Off to take my own advice; later folks!  
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May 13, 2014 18:08
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Prester John, your posts are delightful and you should write a book or something.
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