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Looks trustworthy, I'm sure he'll take of it. 
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May 13, 2014 18:11
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Phone posted:Hey guys, just swinging by to tell you that it's hard to fix systematic abuses by institutions against individuals and an entire generation of Americans. The gall of my generation for establishing an identity and style based on our shared experiences! But you are effectively right about it being hard to fix systematic abuses, but I'll be loving dead before I stop fighting against it. Chokes McGee posted:Looks trustworthy, I'm sure he'll take of it. 
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May 13, 2014 18:18
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Amergin posted:I 1) did some cursory research to see which job markets were doing well and which paid the best in terms of entry-level positions, 2) went to a college the offered to pay my full tuition after busting my rear end in high school, over many other colleges that I would have preferred, 3) worked summer internships every year while in college at local companies, and 4) switched majors from Comp Sci to Psych with 1.5 semesters left as Comp Sci wasn't teaching me anything useful and, through my internships, I already had a guaranteed entry-level position waiting for me upon graduation. I did research into the job market, did my first two years at community college to save money, switched out of a STEM major to a more rare STEM major and went to the one of the few schools in the country that offers it, worked 40 hour weeks while still going to classes full time, took on 10's of thousands of dollars in debt, did internships, got high grades and a good paying job out of school which allows me to pay down my debt comfortably. I still got waaaaaaay lucky. You got lucky. You did hard work and made good with the position you were handed, sure. It's wonderful that you take responsibility for your debt, but the idea that you should have to go into big debt for something that's essentially required for a decent paying job is wrongheaded. You're talking about personal solutions for societal problems, just like many others have in many other threads. The problem of student debt is not a personal problem. It is a societal problem. Personal responsibility-'splaining miss the point.
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May 13, 2014 18:22
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I majored in English and the last few pages of this thread make me wish that literacy had never been invented.
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May 13, 2014 18:23
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Swan Oat posted:I majored in English and the last few pages of this thread make me wish that literacy had never been invented. Literacy wasn't invented, writing was invented.
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May 13, 2014 18:24
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Zeitgueist posted:I did research into the job market, did my first two years at community college to save money, switched out of a STEM major to a more rare STEM major and went to the one of the few schools in the country that offers it, worked 40 hour weeks while still going to classes full time, took on 10's of thousands of dollars in debt, did internships, got high grades and a good paying job out of school which allows me to pay down my debt comfortably. Exactly, I agree entirely (and I know I got lucky). My point is, instead of tackling student debt as the problem, why not tackle mis-/a lack of information and guidance for students in high school as the cause of that high debt (couple with trying to get universities to cut down costs). And if we try to focus on other options (trades, apprenticeships, alternative education to college/BA degree+) then maybe the job market wouldn't have such a hardon for making a four year degree required for picking your nose.
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May 13, 2014 18:28
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A less educated populace isn't good for anyone.
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May 13, 2014 18:30
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Amergin posted:Exactly, I agree entirely (and I know I got lucky). A lot of it, I think, is just deeply ingrained in US culture. There's massive pressure to get done with college, get married, buy a house, have a family and be basically set and done by the time you are 30. I have no idea how you do this, but until we become OK with allowing people time to experiment, try new things, and make it easy for them to do that (debt is a huge issue here, because if you want to change careers and that requires any kind of new education, it's a huge trigger to pull) we aren't getting at the real problems we've been talking about the last few pages.
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May 13, 2014 18:31
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socialsecurity posted:A less educated populace isn't good for anyone. I mean I agree with you but the current situation is a racket.
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May 13, 2014 18:31
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Currently writing a letter to Jackie Walorski... I pretty much know how that's going to turn out, but I'll feel much better voting against her if she pisses me off so 
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May 13, 2014 18:34
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socialsecurity posted:A less educated populace isn't good for anyone. I'm convinced that a lot of Americans NEED someone to be poor and homeless.
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May 13, 2014 18:34
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Samurai Sanders posted:But then who will be poor and homeless? Communications majors.
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May 13, 2014 18:36
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Swan Oat posted:I majored in English and the last few pages of this thread make me wish that literacy had never been invented. Do keep in mind SA membership is international, and not everyone is a native English speaker.
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May 13, 2014 18:36
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lothar_ posted:Or put another way... So basically 
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May 13, 2014 18:37
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Samurai Sanders posted:But then who will be poor and homeless?
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May 13, 2014 18:37
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Amergin posted:Exactly, I agree entirely (and I know I got lucky). The job market has changed and a four year degree is going to be required for pretty much everything from now on. And the problem is the lack of funding for higher education, not how much the universities are spending.
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May 13, 2014 18:39
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Amergin posted:Because to me, the idea of "solving the student loan issue" can easily be coupled with "make college education 'free'" (Scandinavia!) which is only going to discourage people from trades more, or at the very least waste their time for four years before they consider going into a trade. No, you just make the free schools hard to get into, so anyone who wastes their time in high school gets a rejection letter instead of a 4-year detour before real adult life.
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May 13, 2014 18:40
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Amergin posted:Exactly, I agree entirely (and I know I got lucky). Because mis/lack of info is not the problem. Universities aren't going to cut costs because they're trying to make money. You're not going to guide people to the "right" majors because there isn't a right major. There's just ones that that happen to be hiring 4-5 years after you went to school, which is never going to be the answer for millions of people and is notoroiously hard to predict. That is why I said you got lucky. And the whole "just do a trade" thing is also a pipe dream. There aren't enough jobs in trades. Once again, you're trying to talk about personal solutions to a societal problem. You've widened your scope a bit to "guidance counseling" instead of "make the right major choice", but you're still far too narrowly focused.
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May 13, 2014 18:40
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socialsecurity posted:A less educated populace isn't good for anyone. Who says that a 22 year old with a BA in English is less educated than a 22 year old tradesperson with 4-6 years of experience?
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May 13, 2014 18:45
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SedanChair posted:Who says that a 22 year old with a BA in English is less educated than a 22 year old tradesperson with 4-6 years of experience? If it is a proper liberal arts program, the 22 year old with a BA in English will have more education than a 22 year old tradesperson who has only studied his limited field.
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May 13, 2014 18:49
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SedanChair posted:Who says that a 22 year old with a BA in English is less educated than a 22 year old tradesperson with 4-6 years of experience? Me, THE ARBITER OF ASSIGNING AND ASSUMING INTELLIGENCE BASED ON ANECDOTES. Anyways, pick up this can, citizen.
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May 13, 2014 18:49
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Erm, I don't think "education" is a quantifiable metric.
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May 13, 2014 18:50
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Stultus Maximus posted:If it is a proper liberal arts program, the 22 year old with a BA in English will have more education than a 22 year old tradesperson who has only studied his limited field. How classist.
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May 13, 2014 18:50
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Would anyone object to me posting a bit of what I wrote to my congressional rep?
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May 13, 2014 18:52
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Can we go back to alcoholchat instead of circular arguments about who's more lower class? e: No, please, for the love of God, post it.
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May 13, 2014 18:53
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zoux posted:Erm, I don't think "education" is a quantifiable metric. Theoretically it should be possible. I think we can all agree that a communications major is the zero point, so then we just need to build the scale up from there.
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May 13, 2014 18:53
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Spiffster posted:Would anyone object to me posting a bit of what I wrote to my congressional rep? Sure, but unless it includes the words "here is a sizable donation to your reelection campaign" it's going to get glanced at by a staffer and "filed away".
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May 13, 2014 18:54
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SedanChair posted:How classist. It's classist to say that someone who has been educated in science, math, language, history, fine arts, and government has had more education than someone who has been educated in, for example, building roofs?
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May 13, 2014 18:57
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Stultus Maximus posted:It's classist to say that someone who has been educated in science, math, language, history, fine arts, and government has had more education than someone who has been educated in, for example, building roofs? Yep. Because the tone of your statement implies that one sort of knowledge is better than another sort of knowledge. Grats on your very well received exegesis on Proust but that ain't going to stop a leak in your roof. The denigration of labor by the ivory-tower class of progressives creates a schism we don't need.
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May 13, 2014 18:58
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zoux posted:Yep. Why? How is education in six different areas not "more education" than education in one area?
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May 13, 2014 18:59
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Stultus Maximus posted:Why? How is education in six different areas not "more education" than education in one area? Depends on how you define education. If it's just hours taken or degrees received, then yes, they have more education and I guess they can put that on a button and wear it around. If you include anything that values practical applications of knowledge, then it becomes murkier. Does focus matter? If I take 100 hours of chemistry am I more or less educated than someone with a general studies degree of 100 hours?
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May 13, 2014 19:01
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Spiffster posted:Would anyone object to me posting a bit of what I wrote to my congressional rep? Anything to get away from degreechat.
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May 13, 2014 19:02
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I work for a public university. Annual tuition at this school was $318 a year when my parents graduated HS in 1972. This fall our tuition and fees will come to just short of $6,000 - an increase of 1800%. Tied to inflation, our tuition should be $1800 annually this fall. Our costs have, on average, increased at four times the rate of inflation. We are currently nationally ranked for affordability.
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May 13, 2014 19:05
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zoux posted:Sure, but unless it includes the words "here is a sizable donation to your reelection campaign" it's going to get glanced at by a staffer and "filed away". I've been surprised before. My father has actually hosted state representatives before, but considering that was years before the Tea Party and the death of compromise, You are most likely right. A letter posted:Thanks in advance for your time Congresswoman. As you can see I'm pretty much guaranteed to be blown off but at least I tried right? Edit: I suck at first drafts... lets fix this crap Spiffster fucked around with this message at 19:18 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 19:08
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zoux posted:Depends on how you define education. If it's just hours taken or degrees received, then yes, they have more education and I guess they can put that on a button and wear it around. If you include anything that values practical applications of knowledge, then it becomes murkier. Does focus matter? If I take 100 hours of chemistry am I more or less educated than someone with a general studies degree of 100 hours? Someone who has taken science, math, history, and art is better equipped to make decisions in a democracy than someone who has never poked their head out of a laboratory so I'd say less. Specialization is the enemy of education.
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May 13, 2014 19:09
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Nessus posted:Well I think there's research that indicates that people prefer to have less in absolute terms, if it means they have more in relative terms. I read a study to that effect, at least, and it used multiple metrics (would you rather have $50k/year, or a 3000 sq ft apartment, when the average is $75k/4000sqft, or $30k/2000 square feet when the average is $20k/1000sq ft; that kind of thing). I've always thought this was an interesting study, but at the same time it's also just asking "do you want to be above average or below average"? Which I think carries more consequences to it than simply trying to figure out if people want to have more stuff than their neighbors. Is the average what is necessary to get by and not risk serious financial troubles or possible bankruptcy? In which case you should take the $30k a year because then no one is in danger of getting thrown out on the street. In that case taking the $50k a year is jumping on a grenade for no reason. Even if you said "$20k a year is the bare minimum" I can understand hesitation to take the $50k offer because if the cost of living ever goes up it won't be an issue to most people until you've long since been run over.
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May 13, 2014 19:10
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Stultus Maximus posted:Someone who has taken science, math, history, and art is better equipped to make decisions in a democracy than someone who has never poked their head out of a laboratory so I'd say less. Specialization is the enemy of education.
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May 13, 2014 19:10
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Stultus Maximus posted:It's classist to say that someone who has been educated in science, math, language, history, fine arts, and government has had more education than someone who has been educated in, for example, building roofs? Electricians probably have a stricter math requirement than an english major.
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May 13, 2014 19:11
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Isn't the whole "Well maybe those rabble should just do trades while the aristocracy and those who we deem to be gifted get traditional university educations" argument the real classist one? Also assuming people made this argument got their way and 90% of people going to higher education did trades instead, wouldn't this kind of massively increase the labor supply of said trades and depress wages?
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May 13, 2014 19:12
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Spiffster posted:I've been surprised before. My father has actually hosted state representatives before, but considering that was years before the Tea Party and the death of compromise, You are most likely right. Unless you're being meta about education  e: also "its" it's is a contraction for it is. And I don't have a college education 
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May 13, 2014 19:12
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