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DSauer posted:And yeah honestly screw the GPL. The moment you GPL something everything derived from it is also GPL'd without you having a choice in the matter. It is a licensed designed to enforce copyleft. And technically the KSP assemblies we reference in our own code would have to also be GPL to make it work. Its nice that the GPL does force the sharing of code upstream, but that's not really relevant for KSP. How many mod forks are there that are being developed concurrently with their parent Mod? GPL does not require that everything it touches be GPL'd. That's one of the most common and most incorrect arguments about GPL. There's all sorts of linking exceptions. In this particular case, in the enclosed system of the game and the mod, the game libraries would probably constitute "system libraries" and easily meet that exception. There's other ones as well. There are numerous valid reasons to dislike or not recommend the GPL, but I hate it when this crap comes up. It's just not accurate. Please don't continue to spread it until you understand it. Note: I'm not a GPL expert nor a lawyer, I just know that this particular argument is bunk and I'm sick of seeing it.
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May 18, 2014 22:08
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Hremsfeld posted:I agree. Not everything has to start with a K around here. Not unless there's a KDE associated license you can ape.
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May 18, 2014 22:14
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Avenging Dentist posted:I think the last time this came up, I suggested the following: All good suggestions. I think having a plan for official hosting and donation links might be useful. Someone's bound to get "creative" with that technicality, and I foresee either a middleman in content links, or unidirectional crosslinking for content. I think the biggest rule I can contribute is that a link leads to a link. Shortening a link is fine, but intentional obfuscation for malicious or personally profitable ventures might be a bit too much. I don't know if this is a thing or not, but avoiding modding drama is always better than dealing with it. Geirskogul posted:[... ] no mods that actively interfere with other mod functionality without approval. I think "interfere" is the operative term here. A mod shouldn't "interfere"; it should essentially overwrite or utilize mod content without interfering. In the case of an overwrite, it's a matter of caveat for the installer; I don't think you need permission to install a science addon mod, and then an overwrite to adjust the science amounts because it gives too much in your opinion. I suppose that would fall under a fork? For content utilization, I'm unsure if that would fall under forking a project. Something like the Rasterprop Monitor being added to modded-in capsules, for example. I think the debate of what kind of license is moot; better to establish the rulesets for use and distribution, then choose the best license that covers the function. By choosing a license then adapting the rules around it, you end up with a headache of enforcement and clarification. You might still have outlier rules, but the one exception is better than half of them excepted.
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May 18, 2014 23:40
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Ratzap posted:Busy weekend so I'm late to the discussion. What's been said so far is good but you might also want to explicitly include the right for Squad to 'opt in' anything they feel should be part of the actual official release: partially, wholly or using ideas/images from the mod. No compensation required and maybe toss them a bone about accreditation. Letting a mod bounce around the community is a great idea, but including a mod wholesale without compensating the author is a little unethical. Replicating functionality is a grey area I'll admit.
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May 18, 2014 23:48
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The Meat Dimension posted:Letting a mod bounce around the community is a great idea, but including a mod wholesale without compensating the author is a little unethical. Replicating functionality is a grey area I'll admit. Yep but companies generally don't want to leave even a tiny gap that someone can work an argument of 'you owe me X' into. Make it plain that Squad owns whatever is done in the way of mods if they really want them, couch it in ifs/maybes about compensation but you lose control or make promises at your peril. I went after an asteroid in my RPL save today, built myself a truly huge rocket (having mined the moon of science). I lifted off with over 25k dV, caught up to the asteroid 69,000km out from Earth (rather close but I went for the nearest to save some poor Earthicans). Sadly the rock proved to be horrifically large (I should have checked before heading to it) - class E. As the claw sank into its surface, the available dV plummeted from 7,125 to 103 and the weight rose from 26t to 917t. The cheapest maneuver node to miss Earth cost 625 m2 so Jeb n Bill said 'Oopsie folks, better start evacuating' and plotted a return to Earth. Tragically for them, the realchutes deployed at 22km and FAR decided they got ripped off by aerodynamic forces. All in all, not what you'd call a successful mission as such but the next version should go better. Plus it seems RSS asteroid moving is seriously harsh - the amount of fuel required to move that rock would have needed something like 7 or 8 launches... 
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May 19, 2014 00:34
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Ratzap posted:As the claw sank into its surface, the available dV plummeted from 7,125 to 103 and the weight rose from 26t to 917t. Never use anything but nuclear engines to redirect large asteroids. You can play around with ion or chemical engines on small rocks, but for the big ones it’s all about great gobs of fuel and as many NERVAs as it takes to keep you sane.
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May 19, 2014 00:45
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I'd be happy if mods had a "no network access" rule. While this would obviously break KMP it would also short circuit advertisements and phoning home.
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May 19, 2014 01:05
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I've finally gotten to the point where I want to start checking out asteroids. I assume intercepting them is exactly like it is for any other object, except this is happening outside of Kerbin SoI?
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May 19, 2014 01:08
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Bentai posted:I've finally gotten to the point where I want to start checking out asteroids. I assume intercepting them is exactly like it is for any other object, except this is happening outside of Kerbin SoI? Except when it isn't, yeah. It's cheapest fuel-wise to intercept them out of Kerbin's SoI, but that's not to say it's impossible to catch them inside it.
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May 19, 2014 01:14
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xzzy posted:I'd be happy if mods had a "no network access" rule. While this would obviously break KMP it would also short circuit advertisements and phoning home. Aside from KMP (and DMP, the alternative) this would break KLF and Go At Throttle Up wouldn't it?
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May 19, 2014 01:18
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xzzy posted:I'd be happy if mods had a "no network access" rule. While this would obviously break KMP it would also short circuit advertisements and phoning home. That's probably not worth it. How would you ensure this rule is followed without being in a position to more selectively detect mods loading ads (which should be banned), etc.?
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May 19, 2014 01:35
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I assume the same way any other violations get dealt with, reporting it to Curse and/or the KSP guys and having the mod removed. It's probably overkill but I really don't see any legit reason for a mod to be using the network, especially given the security considerations it creates.
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May 19, 2014 01:46
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A little disappointed nobody has mentioned this yet - get an attorney. Really, there's lots of little legal technicalities that can come up. For instance, since you're based in Mexico, GPL (or whatever) might not translate perfectly. I'd suggest some fairly broad, really, to give you a permanent, irrevocable license to all mods and total control over the platform. Take a look at whatever Steam Workshop uses. Contracts cover the worst case, not the best case.
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May 19, 2014 01:46
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Platonicsolid posted:A little disappointed nobody has mentioned this yet - get an attorney. Really, there's lots of little legal technicalities that can come up. For instance, since you're based in Mexico, GPL (or whatever) might not translate perfectly. I'd suggest some fairly broad, really, to give you a permanent, irrevocable license to all mods and total control over the platform. Take a look at whatever Steam Workshop uses. Contracts cover the worst case, not the best case. We have a lawyer, we're basically getting a long list of 'this must happen' and then getting them in legalese.
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May 19, 2014 01:56
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Avenging Dentist posted:
That might not go far enough. That leaves a loophole of just hosting on Dropbox instead. They'd still be able to link from the forums. I think Squad could legitimately assert that mods are derivative works that require their consent to be legally distributed. State that all mods must be released under an OSI license, period. My stuff's been GPL so far, to make sure any derivative mods stay open, but Squad declaring that all mods must be MIT-licensed would be fine by me. That would be a good way to make sure Squad can incorporate mod functionality into the stock game if they'd like. edit: On the other hand, license flexibility might be necessary for mods that incorporate pre-existing open-source libraries and utilities. eth0.n fucked around with this message at 02:03 on May 19, 2014 |
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May 19, 2014 02:00
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I've pretty much only gone after asteroids that fell under the following criteria: A) The asteroid is going to enter the Kerbin sphere of influence. B) The asteroid is not going to hit Kerbin. C) The asteroid has a low periapse. The highest periapse I've gone for is about 1400 km, the lowest, about 140. My game is to put my rocket into a circular orbit that matches the plane of the target's trajectory through Kerbin's SOI, and touches (or comes as close as I can manage to touching) the Kerbin Periapse of the target. I then wait for the target to enter the Kerbin SOI. At that point, I plonk a maneuver node at where my orbit touches the target's trajectory, and pull it prograde so that my spacecraft will go around twice before the target reaches periapse.  In the image above, the asteroid is about 60 hours out, and my spacecraft is near its own periapse, plotting an orbit with a 30-hour period. I then go around once, and plot another periapse maneuver node to attempt to guarantee that both my spacecraft and the rock will reach their common periapse at the same time. If I do things right, possibly with some last minute adjustments on the way in, both will arrive at periapse with a relatively small relative velocity, at which point I can clamp it and brake it into a closed orbit. That said, the depicted asteroid was a 450-ton Class D, coming in with a 60-degree orbital inclination, and positioned so that both of its equatorial nodes were near periapse. I grabbed it with one of these, burned a little to bring it inside the Kerbin SOI, and managed to wrangle its inclination down to 34° with an apoapse burn.  I then ran three of these dry moving it to a circular 200 km altitude orbit.  I think Mechjeb is lying about the delta-V on-board, I recall it did that a few times during the mission. In retrospect, I probably should have run the rock down either high over Kerbin, or outside the Kerbin SOI entirely. If I had done that, I could have ensured that the Kerbin periapse was lower, and above the Kerbin equator, which would have made the plane change significantly easier, since my eventual apoapsis would also have been near-equatorial, instead of high above the plane.
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May 19, 2014 02:12
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xzzy posted:I assume the same way any other violations get dealt with, reporting it to Curse and/or the KSP guys and having the mod removed. I think banning mods from accessing the network doesn't actually help anyone, it just stops mods that have a legitimate reason for it- like multiplayer mods, Telemachus, etc. If someone finds out that a mod is using it for unsavory purposes, then they can report it.
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May 19, 2014 02:14
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Geirskogul posted:...no mods that actively interfere with other mod functionality without approval. I think care should be taken to more narrowly target malicious interference. I'm thinking of cases like how KSP Interstellar will overwrite Deadly Reentry's values for engine heat when it's applying compression effects at high speed. Or how nearly every single mod includes Module Manager configurations that change the behaviour of other mods. Ratzap posted:I went after an asteroid in my RPL save today, built myself a truly huge rocket (having mined the moon of science). I lifted off with over 25k dV, caught up to the asteroid 69,000km out from Earth (rather close but I went for the nearest to save some poor Earthicans). Sadly the rock proved to be horrifically large (I should have checked before heading to it) - class E. As the claw sank into its surface, the available dV plummeted from 7,125 to 103 and the weight rose from 26t to 917t. The cheapest maneuver node to miss Earth cost 625 m2 so Jeb n Bill said 'Oopsie folks, better start evacuating' and plotted a return to Earth. Tragically for them, the realchutes deployed at 22km and FAR decided they got ripped off by aerodynamic forces. All in all, not what you'd call a successful mission as such but the next version should go better. Plus it seems RSS asteroid moving is seriously harsh - the amount of fuel required to move that rock would have needed something like 7 or 8 launches... Just like real life, and for the big asteroids in particular, intercepting the asteroid as soon as possible is very important. For that 7km/s dV craft, you could have used 4000 m/s of that delta-v to intercept the asteroid while it's still weeks away from Kerbin, then you could have easily used the remaining 58 m/s dV post-Klaw to shift it away from a collision course. And by using 4000 m/s to intercept, I mean doing a 2000 m/s burn at Kerbin to intercept the asteroid, then a 2000 m/s braking burn to rendezvous. Or you can go further. Instead of spending the mere few m/s of dV to shift the asteroid while it's so far away, you can even carefully push it into an encounter with the Mun to get a gravity capture that also zeros out any inclination. (This is my favourite gravity assist so far:  I needed to use two slingshots and an aerobrake to capture that asteroid. But the total dV spend post-Klaw was only 12.5 m/s.)
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May 19, 2014 02:20
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xzzy posted:I assume the same way any other violations get dealt with, reporting it to Curse and/or the KSP guys and having the mod removed. I should have said "when" not "how". When would you be able to tell a mod is using the network without fairly trivially being able to determine if it was for a legitimate purpose? This rule would likely block legitimate uses of the network while being ineffective against actual malware and unnecessary for blocking monetized mods (as they'd be blocked under a different rule). Luneshot posted:I think banning mods from accessing the network doesn't actually help anyone, it just stops mods that have a legitimate reason for it- like multiplayer mods, Telemachus, etc. If someone finds out that a mod is using it for unsavory purposes, then they can report it. Exactly. No need to throw out good mods just because one person doesn't care about them, especially when the rule wouldn't actually prevent malicious network access.
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May 19, 2014 02:33
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eth0.n posted:That might not go far enough. That leaves a loophole of just hosting on Dropbox instead. They'd still be able to link from the forums. I don't personally have a problem with people releasing closed-source mods as long as they're not hosted on/linked to from official channels, but you could just say "all mods must have an OSI-approved license, period". It doesn't matter too much to me. The main goal is to oust the control freaks from the official channels, anyway. (Or, to put it in a more positive light, to encourage a community of sharing among modders.) eth0.n posted:edit: On the other hand, license flexibility might be necessary for mods that incorporate pre-existing open-source libraries and utilities. Yeah, that's why I wanted to let people use the GPL.
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May 19, 2014 02:41
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Ratzap posted:Yep but companies generally don't want to leave even a tiny gap that someone can work an argument of 'you owe me X' into. Make it plain that Squad owns whatever is done in the way of mods if they really want them, couch it in ifs/maybes about compensation but you lose control or make promises at your peril. I see. Well, if that kind of text is included, hopefully it will get flowerchild out.
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May 19, 2014 04:25
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After unlocking the ramjet intake and the turbojet engine, I proceeded to make a  . I managed to get it back under control and barely missed the ground at 5km. I gave up trying to land airplanes in a normal fashion on Kerbin, there aren't any good places with science; I put parachutes on anything that I'm trying to do anything useful with as a compromise. So, I managed to fly a deathtrap out of the atmosphere, stall the gently caress out of it, rein it in, and collect science to boot. I'm using FAR and have pulled the wings off, forgot how high I was and flat spun, recovered from several flat spins by applying generous amounts of thrust, and I just get a thrill goosing it up to mach 3 and cutting throttle over and over.
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May 19, 2014 05:04
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Psawhn posted:Just like real life, and for the big asteroids in particular, intercepting the asteroid as soon as possible is very important. For that 7km/s dV craft, you could have used 4000 m/s of that delta-v to intercept the asteroid while it's still weeks away from Kerbin, then you could have easily used the remaining 58 m/s dV post-Klaw to shift it away from a collision course. Like I said, I just picked the first one of the swarm heading to Earth to see if the RSS makes things easier or harder. The big problem is the NERVA in RPL is straight up worthless - chemical or KISP are the only choices. Getting an intercept takes a long time too, they appear at the edge of the SoI up to 600,000km away. That can take weeks to out to. I'll try one later that's far off and small.
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May 19, 2014 09:42
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Ratzap posted:Like I said, I just picked the first one of the swarm heading to Earth to see if the RSS makes things easier or harder. The big problem is the NERVA in RPL is straight up worthless - chemical or KISP are the only choices. Getting an intercept takes a long time too, they appear at the edge of the SoI up to 600,000km away. That can take weeks to out to. I'll try one later that's far off and small. Yeah, I track them if they're inbound, but don't bother intercepting until they're under a week away. As long as you meet it a day or more outside KSOI, even the slightest nudge will divert it.
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May 19, 2014 10:13
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Avenging Dentist posted:
I'd agree more if OSI would approve the WTFPL. (The Free Software Foundation's clinical conclusion that it is a free software license is pretty hilarious.) xzzy posted:I'd be happy if mods had a "no network access" rule. While this would obviously break KMP it would also short circuit advertisements and phoning home. You can take Telemachus from my cold, dead hands. And seeing as this is KSP, I'd probably die in space so you'd be waiting a while for my hands to get cold.
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May 19, 2014 10:14
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Ratzap posted:Busy weekend so I'm late to the discussion. What's been said so far is good but you might also want to explicitly include the right for Squad to 'opt in' anything they feel should be part of the actual official release: partially, wholly or using ideas/images from the mod. No compensation required and maybe toss them a bone about accreditation.
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May 19, 2014 11:31
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Perhaps more along the line that mods can't be used to make claims on features added later.
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May 19, 2014 11:35
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I think a stipulation that mods may not have a phone-home or update check function, unless it is disabled by default.
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May 19, 2014 12:56
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I got a class C asteroid into a 600km, circular, equatorial orbit after several refueling missions to gas up the Klaw-ship I had stuck to the fucker, and now that I have, I'm not quite sure what to do with the fucker. Any suggestions? I want to do something nifty. 
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May 19, 2014 12:59
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Nuclear Pogostick posted:I got a class C asteroid into a 600km, circular, equatorial orbit after several refueling missions to gas up the Klaw-ship I had stuck to the fucker, and now that I have, I'm not quite sure what to do with the fucker. Any suggestions? I want to do something nifty. Safely land it outside KSC and balance kerbals on top of it.
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May 19, 2014 13:01
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OwlFancier posted:Safely land it outside KSC and balance kerbals on top of it. I considered that, but I think I wanna leave this one in space. The next asteroid I capture is going to be smashed into Krussian territory. 
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May 19, 2014 13:02
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EightBit posted:After unlocking the ramjet intake and the turbojet engine, I proceeded to make a My MO with planes now is to set the gear up so it sits noticeably nose-high, give it a hilarious thrust to weight ratio, the stick a parachute on the nose, tail, and each wingtip. Get to where I want to do science, shut the engine down, stall it, throw the parachutes out, and land that way. Once on the ground, repack everything, apply brakes, throttle up, and as soon as the brakes start to slip, full aft stick, and fly it off. It's basically a jet-powered bush plane.
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May 19, 2014 13:18
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Elukka posted:Don't think I'd agree with this. It's one thing to make a mod for the community, another entirely to work for a for-profit company for free. Then you'd be free to not mod the game. I have written a mod for KSP and since it builds upon, uses parts of and must be used in conjunction with KSP, it basically is Squads properly if they want it. I didn't write it for money, I wrote it because I wanted it to exist but you have to realise that legal documents are all about setting out in black and white those conditions which largely already exist. It saves have to go through the hassle of proving to some upset guy that he worked for free, thanks, here's a T shirt. They're unlikely to even want to use other peoples stuff (they wrote their own kerbal joint reinforcement for example) but again, legalese is about laying out their rights and giving them options with their property and IP.
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May 19, 2014 14:40
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If I spent what amounts to actual real work on a mod, I wouldn't want or expect money for it, but if it's no longer a mod and is used by the developer for profit I wouldn't want to just hand it over with no permission required. They're entirely free to make that a license term if they want to, of course.
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May 19, 2014 15:24
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OAquinas posted:Yeah, I track them if they're inbound, but don't bother intercepting until they're under a week away. As long as you meet it a day or more outside KSOI, even the slightest nudge will divert it. Found out last night that even if it's in KSOI, as long as you're far enough away, it doesn't take much to push it away.   That's a class E asteroid. dV went from 3557 to 29. BUT, at that distance from Kerbin, it only took ~17 m/s to push it out to a ~250km periapsis.  Took, like, 20 minutes to turn the fucker to point at the maneuver node, though.
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May 19, 2014 16:31
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Elukka posted:If I spent what amounts to actual real work on a mod, I wouldn't want or expect money for it, but if it's no longer a mod and is used by the developer for profit I wouldn't want to just hand it over with no permission required. They're entirely free to make that a license term if they want to, of course. The idea is that Squad won't just swipe a mod with no credit or permission, but they'd want to cover their asses legally by saying that they can. It's much much safer to have an official policy of "we owe you nothing" while still being cordial about it.
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May 19, 2014 16:40
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Is anyone else having issues with the MechJeb docking autopilot? It used to work just fine and now it just sort of idly vomits RCS while oscillating about 40m from the target.
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May 19, 2014 16:47
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Gau posted:Is anyone else having issues with the MechJeb docking autopilot? It used to work just fine and now it just sort of idly vomits RCS while oscillating about 40m from the target. What version of MechJeb are you using? There are dev builds at http://jenkins.mumech.com/job/MechJeb2/ that usually work fine. The docking autopilot has worked fine for me with the most recent version. In fact it's working much better than it used to.
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May 19, 2014 17:07
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Gau posted:Is anyone else having issues with the MechJeb docking autopilot? It used to work just fine and now it just sort of idly vomits RCS while oscillating about 40m from the target. Do you have the correct target port set, and have "Control from here" selected on your port? Do you have a good RCS setup--no blocked jets, jets pointing to all six axes?
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May 19, 2014 17:24
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Nuclear Pogostick posted:I got a class C asteroid into a 600km, circular, equatorial orbit after several refueling missions to gas up the Klaw-ship I had stuck to the fucker, and now that I have, I'm not quite sure what to do with the fucker. Any suggestions? I want to do something nifty. Send it to Ike, as a replacement Magic Boulder.
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May 19, 2014 17:28
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