|
http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/content/parade-politics-cause-flap-between-vet-groups Local Veterans Committee bans the Veterans For Peace from participating in veterans day parade. They even threatened to use the police to keep the VFP from having a presence. Is it just me or is this hosed? I'm getting in contact with the VFP and trying to get together people to call the parade organizers and be a nuisance. Hopefully get this story on the local news by tonight through my contacts there. I'd love to see this story go national. I hate it when the ultra-nationalists try to shut down the veterans who don't share their views. Some people think the best way to honor the dead is to prevent service members from joining their ranks, and there is nothing wrong with that.
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 12:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 21:14 |
|
|
Why the gently caress are people talking about the fact that they aren't responsible for their ancestors? Of course you're not - causality can't go backwards in time. But the government is responsible for its role and the government should pay. Where did this idea come from that reparations would mean you cutting a personal check to your black neighbor? It's an insane strawman.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 12:11
|
|
|
Jimbozig posted:Where did this idea come from that reparations would mean you cutting a personal check to your black neighbor? It's an insane strawman. Well, if a person's paycheck was at least partially dependent, directly or indirectly, on exploiting the poo poo out of others then I'd say cutting part of a paycheck would be reasonable. That's kind of the point of reparations. "Yeah, uh, sorry we exploited you in the past and continue to do so. Here's some cash, the rest of it will take time, but we're working on it." Much of it is systemic and will take time to fix but some instant cash would, at the very least, alleviate the utterly crushing poverty that minorities are prone to living in.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 12:14
|
|
|
absolem posted:I am arguing that it is not immoral to benefit from a situation in which someone other than yourself has violated someone's rights, as long as you yourself have not violated anyone's rights. So the logic of the libertarian argument for opposing government on the basis of it being a continuation of violating initial rights applies only when it makes your life easier, and not when it comes to how you are exploiting others?
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 12:16
|
|
|
Coates doesn't base his argument solely on slavery, nor does he advocate strictly monetary compensation. Yet, I would bet my life that every criticism of the argument will use two strawmen: 1) My ancestors didn't have anything to do with slavery. 2) The country cannot feasibly afford reparations. I imagine we'll see a lot of the absalom misdirect regarding Coates's use of 'sob stories,' as well, in an attempt to dismiss evidence and obscure Coates's main goal of opening minds, not wallets (although that would be nice).
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 12:20
|
|
|
Jimbozig posted:Why the gently caress are people talking about the fact that they aren't responsible for their ancestors? Of course you're not - causality can't go backwards in time. But the government is responsible for its role and the government should pay. So uh...... Where do you think the government receives funding from? How many layers of bureaucracy do you need to insert before we're able to pretend that the fundamental process isn't meant to be a wealth transfer from you to your black neighbor? I really doubt that you read the article because many of his examples are about the private entrepreneurs of the racism biz. He also specifically talks about reparations as addressing racist attitudes. He brings up things from before the existence of our government. It's meant to be personally healing. If you are neither punished nor helped by reparations, why would it effect your wretched state of Even Coates isn't dumb enough to pretend that reparations aren't punitive toward white americans, which is why he spends a lot of time laying out a case that they should be punished. SickZip fucked around with this message at 12:33 on May 22, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 12:27
|
|
|
absolem posted:Fun stuff, definitely quote:The crash was predicted well in advance by many Austrian economists. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with subprime lending, its just playing with worse odds, so you should do less of it. The financial crash is separate from what set it off, which was the popping of the housing bubble. It took time for that to move through the system. The Austrian predictions came in 2006-2007. The housing bubble popped in 2005. Seeing the dominos are falling once you knock them over is not useful forecasting.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 12:27
|
|
|
SickZip posted:Even Coates isn't dumb enough to pretend that reparations isn't punitive toward white americans, which is why he spends a lot of time laying out a case that they should be punished. Could you reference where you think Coates is making this argument? This isn't intended as an attack. I'm just curious where you see that.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 12:31
|
|
|
Naet posted:Coates doesn't base his argument solely on slavery, nor does he advocate strictly monetary compensation. Yet, I would bet my life that every criticism of the argument will use two strawmen: Exactly. Coates grounds his argument is explicit programs that have been outed as ongoing as recently as 2008, and the ongoing disparate impact of "color blind" programs. This idea that "it was my ancestors, it was a long time ago" doesn't fly when it is this recently. I'm not convinced reparations are the best way to break the institutional racism of the system, and I'm even less convinced it would be a plausible policy. But it can't hurt to at least study the question, and it is a side issue to the point that we need to wake up and confront what has been going on with our system.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 12:36
|
|
|
Naet posted:Could you reference where you think Coates is making this argument? I'm not going to list all the examples of private racism he uses. If you reached the end of the article and thought he was implicating just the government instead of "white people" then read it again. The article is very heavily about the creation of the wealth gap "Perhaps no statistic better illustrates the enduring legacy of our country’s shameful history of treating black people as sub-citizens, sub-Americans, and sub-humans than the wealth gap. Reparations would seek to close this chasm. But as surely as the creation of the wealth gap required the cooperation of every aspect of the society, bridging it will require the same." The wealth gap is the enduring mark of racism. Reparations are needed to close this. You all need to "cooperate" in this. If you think he's talking generally about lessening poverty: "...is to cover the sin of national plunder with the sin of national lying. The lie ignores the fact that reducing American poverty and ending white supremacy are not the same." He's specifically calling for reparations that increase the wealth of black americans and against general anti-poverty reduction. The article is borderline nonsensical if you think that he's not calling for all sectors of white america to suffer a bit. Is there a "healing of the national psyche" or "full acceptance of our collective biography and its consequences—is the price we must pay to see ourselves squarely" if we were talking about a program that wasn't meant to make all the beneficiaries of racism pay to the victims of it. We aren't talking about some targeted tax on the 1% and its never pitched as so. Coates is so goddamn ridiculous. How are their presumable adults on this forum soberly talking about this article like it was brilliant when he's pitching reparations like some dopey liberal national exorcism where the ghosts of Lee and Atwater are going to be expelled from all our bodies. How can you read these lines and not lol: "What I’m talking about is more than recompense for past injustices—more than a handout, a payoff, hush money, or a reluctant bribe. What I’m talking about is a national reckoning that would lead to spiritual renewal. Reparations would mean the end of scarfing hot dogs on the Fourth of July while denying the facts of our heritage. Reparations would mean the end of yelling “patriotism” while waving a Confederate flag. Reparations would mean a revolution of the American consciousness, a reconciling of our self-image as the great democratizer with the facts of our history." What an awful mess of awkward metaphors smashed together with terrible cliche.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 13:28
|
|
|
Fried Chicken posted:Exactly. Coates grounds his argument is explicit programs that have been outed as ongoing as recently as 2008, and the ongoing disparate impact of "color blind" programs. This idea that "it was my ancestors, it was a long time ago" doesn't fly when it is this recently. I thought it was bad when the banks just got away with it. Now white americans must pay for the bank's sins
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 13:30
|
|
|
SickZip posted:The article is borderline nonsensical if you think that he's not calling for all sectors of white america to suffer a bit White people will inevitably suffer when (if) white supremacy is dismantled because they will no longer be the privileged class. Yeah, sure this might suck if you're riding high on white privilege, but suck it up. There is no real way we can throw out or confront our nation's systematic racism without making white people uncomfortable and occasionally suffer. Sorry, it's not fair, but neither is benefiting from racism.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 13:32
|
|
|
The freaks are really coming out, I can smell the pungent oil of whitesplaining even now. The Austrian neckbeards don't even look particularly absurd in the midst of this parade of crying. A nation where the black underclass has begun to be lifted up="white suffering" Do you understand! White suffering! It would be white people, suffering! We're not cut out for this poo poo! I haven't had time to get ready! Also,  at the idea that discussing reparations in the US Politics thread is a "derail"--you'll never crap out banking on the panicked insecurity of certain persons, it seems.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 13:49
|
|
|
If white people 'suffer' in the sense of "are no longer harassed by the police 1/5 of the time compared with black people" but that's only because black people are being harassed less, I don't think that's a valid definition of suffering.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 13:57
|
|
|
Jimbozig posted:Where did this idea come from that reparations would mean you cutting a personal check to your black neighbor? It's an insane strawman. I ain't paying cause some lazy blacks can't get their act together after 140 years! My grandparents were immigrants who came over with nothing but a goat and a dream of ARE FREEDOMS
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 13:59
|
|
|
SickZip posted:I'm not going to list all the examples of private racism he uses. If you reached the end of the article and thought he was implicating just the government instead of "white people" then read it again. The article is very heavily about the creation of the wealth gap Okay, but answer the original question: where in the article is he calling for punitive action? Or, how does recognizing the continued existence of white supremacy and white privilege constitute punishment?
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 14:06
|
|
|
Naet posted:Okay, but answer the original question: where in the article is he calling for punitive action? Or, how does recognizing the continued existence of white supremacy and white privilege constitute punishment? He would feel to blame. We know from bankers and Cliven Bundy (the two poles of whiteness) that evading criminal liability isn't enough--even to be accused of being less than the ultimate citizen is in itself punitive. 
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 14:09
|
|
|
ComradeCosmobot posted:Asians as the "good ones" I wrote a thesis paper on this during my undergrad. It's a lot more interesting and complex than I think many people give the subject credit for, especially because of the difficulties in explaining the more nuanced strains of race relations when white on anyone else is much more obvious. Slaying the Dragon was a great film which sparked my interest.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 14:10
|
|
|
The reaction to this piece is really eye opening in a lovely way "We need to combat inequality!" "gently caress yeah! The game is rigged, economy sucks, we are saddled with debt, there are no jobs, and what little we have is being taken from us! We need action! We are the 99%!" "Hey everything you said applies even more so to black people because of our long history of racism, so when we take steps to combat inequality we need to make certain that this time they get their fair share and we don't steal it from them" "gently caress that, I didn't own slaves!" And this is how things remain lovely with the oligarchs running the show.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 14:17
|
|
|
Paying isn't a punishment and I don't interpret the article as saying that it is. But paying does mean acknowledging the benefit one has enjoyed under the regime of white supremacy at the expense of black people.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 14:21
|
|
|
This kind of reminds me of that argument I got with some rich Asian high school classmate who's in the Ivy League now about affirmative action. He was crying about how " IT'S IMMORAL TO DISCRIMINATE ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE JUST BECAUSE ANOTHER GROUP IS SCREWED OVER WORSE " as a justification for why black people should just suck it up regarding their lower higher ed attainment (along with  -worthy anecdotes about "WHITE SHAMING" of high-achieving black pupils to back up his statement)
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 14:25
|
|
|
absolem posted:Hmm, see Haha. "White people don't exploit black people anymore!" "Also, it's totally fine to profit off of the hardships of a marginalized and oppressed group, sorry black people weren't born lucky like me, but I'm not about to stop oppressing them as long as I benefit!" In the same loving post.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 14:26
|
|
|
Honestly the way our immigration system is set up basically anyone that's foreign born *will* be a model minority. I know in my high school there were tons of Chinese/Indian/etc people but their parents were the "study and go to college" types so they didn't go out and party. By contrast, where I grew up was a refugee town so I got to see basically average immigrants (Bosnians in my case since it was the late 90s) and surprise, they're basically average people with as much chance to be drunks/criminals/etc as someone in their income level.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 14:29
|
|
|
Apropos to the latest pronouncement from our lord and savior Ta-Nehisi Coates:quote:The word discrimination immediately conjures up visions of hostile acts, from mid-century “whites only” signs to redlining practices that stymie African-Americans’ attempts at home ownership.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 14:29
|
|
|
SickZip posted:Coates is so goddamn ridiculous. How are their presumable adults on this forum soberly talking about this article like it was brilliant when he's pitching reparations like some dopey liberal national exorcism where the ghosts of Lee and Atwater are going to be expelled from all our bodies. How can you read these lines and not lol:. Because he's laying out the case that black poverty is not white poverty. Not only did he throw together a bunch of points illustrating this, but the editors felt it was kind enough to put it in big, bold letters that might assist challenged readers such as yourself to get it: “Negro Poverty is not White Poverty” He's also pointing out that simply attacking poverty overall hasn't helped: because while the letter of the law doesn't specifically exclude black people, the execution of it, by a bunch of assholes, has. While neither you or I, or perhaps even our ancestors may not have been directly responsible for slavery, or what came afterwards: Coates correctly points out that blacks have had their property taken away- through means established through local or state goverments, how the governments did nothing to ensure the laws protected them, while banks and other firms either actively prevented blacks from accumulating wealth or outright stealing it. So, what exactly do anti-poverty fixes for the general public do to fix all the wealth and property that has been denied or stolen from multiple generations of black people? Sorry we cut off your legs, but you're equal now! Doctor Butts fucked around with this message at 14:40 on May 22, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 14:37
|
|
|
Since we are talking about redlining, disparate impacts, and reparations, I thought this story is relevant. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/house-gop-school-lunch-program
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 14:39
|
|
|
So what was that essay even calling for? I read the whole thing expecting some sort of proposal to be made, but it never comes. I gotta say I am really not impressed maybe I just don't "get it" the way some posters here do.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 14:39
|
|
|
WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Apropos to the latest pronouncement from our lord and savior Ta-Nehisi Coates: Racism comes in different flavors: "interpersonal", "internalized", "structural", and "systemic" and you can do one without doing the others. Fried Chicken fucked around with this message at 14:42 on May 22, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 14:39
|
|
|
Miltank posted:So what was that essay even calling for? I read the whole thing expecting some sort of proposal to be made, but it never comes. I gotta say I am really not impressed maybe I just don't "get it" the way some posters here do. I am under the impression that the title of the article succinctly explains the point of it. "A Case for Reparations" Seems pretty obvious he's pointing out a bunch of bullshit that has happened post-slavery that continued to work towards blacks. Seems those things held them back in some aspects and just plain-old anti-poverty solutions has not done anything to combat it. It is true that he's not necessarily calling for any specific proposal, but that's not the point of the article.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 14:42
|
|
|
Rhesus Pieces posted:This is going to be like fishing for racists with dynamite. Well, it worked.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 14:46
|
|
|
Yeah blacks have been getting hosed by the US since the 17th century, this was all stuff that most posters here already recognize. How do reparations go about ensuring that black americans stop getting hosed and don't get hosed in the future? This is never even touched on and is frankly the only issue that concerns me. E: seems like a lot of sound and fury for an article that will be read by a largely sympathetic audience. Miltank fucked around with this message at 14:51 on May 22, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 14:47
|
|
|
Miltank posted:Yeah blacks have been getting hosed by the US since the 17th century, this was all stuff that most posters here already recognize. How do reparations go about ensuring that black americans stop getting hosed and don't get hosed in the future? This is never even touched on and is frankly the only issue that concerns me. I kind of wonder the same thing. I feel like a discussion about reparations is good if only to go down a checklist of how race plays into inequality with a plethora of real examples from modern day America. If you just go "well it's because of slavery" you lose people. If you start talking about policies and practices of banks and local governments in the 21st century, that changes the scope dramatically. It might not change people's perception of what the conversation actually is though. Regardless, this sort of thing only plays out with a specific demographic and target audience. That article will fall on deaf ears for the most part. I kind of feel like if you can't get people up in arms over poo poo like that piece Time ran a while back about healthcare costs (The Bitter Pill) which effected EVERYONE, how can you get anyone to give a poo poo what happens to any minority group anywhere? It's depressing.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 14:57
|
|
|
Holy gently caress this is going to be an interesting few days! I can learn so much!
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 14:58
|
|
|
Miltank posted:Yeah blacks have been getting hosed by the US since the 17th century, this was all stuff that most posters here already recognize. How do reparations go about ensuring that black americans stop getting hosed and don't get hosed in the future? This is never even touched on and is frankly the only issue that concerns me. Who is this largely sympathetic audience? People in this thread, who otherwise agree with the general premise of "yeah, racism is bad," are clearly ignoring the other critiques of liberal anti-poverty programs and the conflation of race and class. And again, Coates doesn't have a solution but he's making the case for actually exploring the potentials of reparations and rethinking what reparations might look like. Throwing money at the problem hasn't worked.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 15:00
|
|
|
Did your Senator sign the letter to Roger Goodell requesting the Redskins change their team name? If your Senator is named Kaine, Warner, Manchin, Pryor, or Donnelly, or is a Republican, they did not.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 15:04
|
|
|
Miltank posted:Yeah blacks have been getting hosed by the US since the 17th century, this was all stuff that most posters here already recognize. How do reparations go about ensuring that black americans stop getting hosed and don't get hosed in the future? This is never even touched on and is frankly the only issue that concerns me. You get it is "The Case for Reparations" not "A Policy Proposal for Reparations", right? He is outlining how blacks have been getting hosed for 400 years for the people who don't get it
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 15:06
|
|
|
Joementum posted:Did your Senator sign the letter to Roger Goodell requesting the Redskins change their team name? If your Senator is named Kaine, Warner, Manchin, Pryor, or Donnelly, or is a Republican, they did not. Hmm, both senators from Virginia and a senator from West Virginia. I think I see a pattern here.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 15:08
|
|
|
Joementum posted:Did your Senator sign the letter to Roger Goodell requesting the Redskins change their team name? If your Senator is named Kaine, Warner, Manchin, Pryor, or Donnelly, or is a Republican, they did not. Good start, I guess. 
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 15:13
|
|
|
Fried Chicken posted:You get it is "The Case for Reparations" not "A Policy Proposal for Reparations", right? He is outlining how blacks have been getting hosed for 400 years for the people who don't get it
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 15:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 21:14 |
|
|
Miltank posted:Yeah blacks have been getting hosed by the US since the 17th century, this was all stuff that most posters here already recognize. How do reparations go about ensuring that black americans stop getting hosed and don't get hosed in the future? This is never even touched on and is frankly the only issue that concerns me. You've never read the comments section on the Atlantic, huh?
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 15:20
|
|
