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Elias_Maluco posted:South america could use some new nations too. Yeah, I'm not sure why no migratory tribes were added to the south.
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May 27, 2014 23:00
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Dibujante posted:Yeah, I'm not sure why no migratory tribes were added to the south. Were the people of South America migratory? It doesn't really have a Great Plains analogue.
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May 27, 2014 23:03
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The famous ones (Inca, Maya) were agricultural and different enough to warrant their own expansion its just a shame they gotta wait.
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May 27, 2014 23:06
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Ethiser posted:Were the people of South America migratory? It doesn't really have a Great Plains analogue. Apart from the Inca and Maia, yes they were mostly migratory. But werent the north american tribes mostly migratory too?
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May 27, 2014 23:10
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Trying to finish my Minghal game before the DLC and I can't figure out why I can't use the "Unify Islam" decision. All the listed provinces are Sunni as far as I can tell.  Ed: Nevermind, I guess all_owned_province is for all my provinces, not just the ones listed in the decision. I still have a bunch of Confucian provinces, waiting for the +1 base tax events that convert them to Buddhist. 
Vodos fucked around with this message at 23:28 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 23:25
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Impressive. But yeah you probably need all of your provinces to be muslim. "Spread our culture to Constantinople" 
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May 27, 2014 23:29
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Poil posted:I really wish that the edict to establish the kingdom of god actually told you it was going to disable the papacy. Lost a diplomat and leader slot in exchange for nothing. I wish it would actually change your country to "Kingdom of God"
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May 27, 2014 23:38
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Farecoal posted:I wish it would actually change your country to "Kingdom of God"
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May 27, 2014 23:43
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Vodos posted:Trying to finish my Minghal game before the DLC and I can't figure out why I can't use the "Unify Islam" decision. All the listed provinces are Sunni as far as I can tell. Do you really need that extra base tax?
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May 28, 2014 00:07
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Elias_Maluco posted:South america could use some new nations too. Really, to be even vaguely actually-historical about it, there should be a boatload of American OPMs that are all relatively prosperous and fill up most of the "blank" space on the American part of the map, then the first time somebody from the Americas meets a European, disease events start firing off that do horrible nasty things to the base tax, stored points, population, stability, manpower, and so on for all the American nations over the course of about a hundred years. But that would get in the way of being able to form the Cherokee West Indian Company to brutally extract all the wealth of Southeast Asia before the white man can get there, so, eh.
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May 28, 2014 00:48
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Roadie posted:Really, to be even vaguely actually-historical about it, there should be a boatload of American OPMs that are all relatively prosperous and fill up most of the "blank" space on the American part of the map, then the first time somebody from the Americas meets a European, disease events start firing off that do horrible nasty things to the base tax, stored points, population, stability, manpower, and so on for all the American nations over the course of about a hundred years. You could feasibly include these as AI-only events, where there's a % chance that the affected nation just disappears; otherwise, crippling penalties.
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May 28, 2014 00:55
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Roadie posted:Really, to be even vaguely actually-historical about it, there should be a boatload of American OPMs that are all relatively prosperous and fill up most of the "blank" space on the American part of the map, then the first time somebody from the Americas meets a European, disease events start firing off that do horrible nasty things to the base tax, stored points, population, stability, manpower, and so on for all the American nations over the course of about a hundred years. Eh, many/most of the tribes especially as you head West would be very small population-wise, even before European contact. Thousands to tens of thousands total population for most of the tribes. There also isn't really any metal-working to speak of in North America other than some very limited ornamental use, and they didn't have horses. You're pretty much talking sparse populations of natives with stone-age material technology, subsistence farmers and hunter-gatherers. The nomadic lifestyle of the Plains Indians following the great bison herds didn't really take off until Europeans introduced horses, and the various mound-builder civilizations would be well into decline if not pretty much gone by the start of the EU4 time frame.
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May 28, 2014 01:19
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Pellisworth posted:Eh, many/most of the tribes especially as you head West would be very small population-wise, even before European contact. Thousands to tens of thousands total population for most of the tribes. There also isn't really any metal-working to speak of in North America other than some very limited ornamental use, and they didn't have horses. You're pretty much talking sparse populations of natives with stone-age material technology, subsistence farmers and hunter-gatherers. The nomadic lifestyle of the Plains Indians following the great bison herds didn't really take off until Europeans introduced horses, and the various mound-builder civilizations would be well into decline if not pretty much gone by the start of the EU4 time frame. Okay, this is complicated. There's a really wide range of population estimates for North America and South America east of the Andes, and this is due to a particular historiographic phenomenon. In really broad strokes (this is not my specialization area of history), the first group of Europeans to document their trips through an area will generally remark on how densely populated the area is. A subsequent trip some decades later will document a howling wasteland. There are a couple of possible explanations:
I can't claim that one of these is correct. However, there is enough evidence for #3 to not discount it. You're right that just about all of the civilizations I mentioned were stone-age in technology. This means that their artifacts were not very durable. However, archaeological digs have discovered evidence of substantial agriculture in areas that were once documented as being full of inhabitants, but then later documented as empty. So, in the absence of written records by the local people, that's generally the best evidence we have. As a counter-argument to this, however, once North Americans started doing better censuses, they didn't find large populations of Native Americans. As a counter-counter-point, of course, they were taking censuses of post-plague populations who were living in substantially more marginal land than Native Americans had lived in before. Also, they were a hostile government taking a census of unwilling people, many of which probably did not want to participate, and many of which probably didn't. So, there is room for large pre-columbian populations. In the absence of very deadly contagious diseases, it's possible to sustain fairly large populations. Our understanding of Native American agricultural practices continues to grow; many phenomena that we thought were just natural features of the North American landscape (like the wide range of the bison) appear to have been strongly influenced by Native Americans trying to expand the range of animals and plants that they were fond of. Native Americans were definitely influenced by Europeans strongly, and I think EU4 has the tools to represent this (through the partial modernization thing that native americans do), but doesn't entirely do it. It would be completely possible to give one-province migratory tribes (or just tribes in the great plains area, or something) some kind of mongol khanate equivalent government with tons of cavalry bonuses, a 100% cavalry ratio, etc. I am constantly amused by the fact that, across time and space, if you give humans horses and a big grass steppe, they will all do the same thing: live off of hunting and raiding those who were not endowed with both of those things.
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May 28, 2014 04:01
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Vodos posted:Trying to finish my Minghal game before the DLC and I can't figure out why I can't use the "Unify Islam" decision. All the listed provinces are Sunni as far as I can tell. Can you spin some or all of those provinces out into vassals? That should allow you to take the decision and re-integrate them.
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May 28, 2014 05:23
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I may go Portugal as I have never had a chance to colonize yet.
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May 28, 2014 06:57
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Pellisworth posted:Eh, many/most of the tribes especially as you head West would be very small population-wise, even before European contact. Thousands to tens of thousands total population for most of the tribes. There also isn't really any metal-working to speak of in North America other than some very limited ornamental use, and they didn't have horses. You're pretty much talking sparse populations of natives with stone-age material technology, subsistence farmers and hunter-gatherers. The nomadic lifestyle of the Plains Indians following the great bison herds didn't really take off until Europeans introduced horses, and the various mound-builder civilizations would be well into decline if not pretty much gone by the start of the EU4 time frame. The North American Indians had native copper working, which is metal working, even if primitive. To the south, both the Aztecs and the Incas had just developed bronze. So maybe not quite Stone Age technology, though there was certainly no iron or steel being made.
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May 28, 2014 07:59
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goodness posted:I may go Portugal as I have never had a chance to colonize yet. I'm still deciding who I'll be, maybe I'll go Muslim instead if you're going christian
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May 28, 2014 08:04
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Actually the issue was more one of access: on those rare occasions when iron deposits were on the surface (in the case of meteorites), iron was indeed worked: the Thule (a pre-Columban group based around Hudson Bay and Greenland) were particularly adept at it.
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May 28, 2014 08:05
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I've started my first game as an Orthodox nation yesterday. As far as I can tell, the Patriarchal Authority mechanic consists of nothing more than random events that give you +5 or -5. Am I missing something or is Orthodoxy supposed to be so mind-numbingly boring?
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May 28, 2014 10:31
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Why was there no iron working and limited bronze working btw? Lack of easily accessible deposits?
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May 28, 2014 10:33
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Jolan posted:I've started my first game as an Orthodox nation yesterday. As far as I can tell, the Patriarchal Authority mechanic consists of nothing more than random events that give you +5 or -5. Am I missing something or is Orthodoxy supposed to be so mind-numbingly boring? Pretty much it sadly: occasionally there's a +/- 50 Authority event pops up but that's as varied as it gets I think. The bonuses can be pretty useful at least: it's like Piety for Muslims in that it's generally worth maxing it out one way or the other. Munin posted:Why was there no iron working and limited bronze working btw? Lack of easily accessible deposits? Basically this.
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May 28, 2014 10:34
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Munin posted:Why was there no iron working and limited bronze working btw? Lack of easily accessible deposits? According to the 1492 book they did have better knowledge of metallurgy but just weren't that much interested in making weapons or actually working with iron. They mostly worked gold but did that with a skill far beyond that of Europeans. Why is the expansion not on Steam yet? Damnit Johann I want to give you money!
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May 28, 2014 10:45
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Are there any deals on the expansion anywhere? I know Green Man Gaming has had specials every time I've bought a Paradox expansion from them in the past, but I couldn't find any coupons this time.
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May 28, 2014 13:55
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Started a game of Burgundy last night. Honestly, without the rush to colonization and trying to block everyone else from the rest of the world, the game wasn't as fun. I guess I should replace colonization with dismantling the HRE, but every drat small country that I could vassalize is an archbishopric so diplo vassal is out of the equation.
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May 28, 2014 14:42
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Cantorsdust posted:The North American Indians had native copper working, which is metal working, even if primitive. To the south, both the Aztecs and the Incas had just developed bronze. So maybe not quite Stone Age technology, though there was certainly no iron or steel being made. Munin posted:Why was there no iron working and limited bronze working btw? Lack of easily accessible deposits? You need both copper and tin to make bronze, but the main tin deposits available were in northwestern Mexico, whereas the copper deposits were in the Great Lakes area. Mesoamerican and Andean civilizations did work bronze, but they were hampered to some extent by the presence of obsidian, which simply makes better blades than bronze. You see bronze all over the place for decorative purposes, but not for military purposes. Generally, Native Americans worked every metal they could come across but did not have the level of smelting technologies needed to accomplish much with iron. Smelting iron is very hard and non-intuitive; it's quite a surprise that it took off as quickly as it did in the Old World.
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May 28, 2014 14:56
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:Started a game of Burgundy last night. Honestly, without the rush to colonization and trying to block everyone else from the rest of the world, the game wasn't as fun. I guess I should replace colonization with dismantling the HRE, but every drat small country that I could vassalize is an archbishopric so diplo vassal is out of the equation. The Reformation has a way of ruining life for archbishoprics. You can even speed this up (and probably ruin Austria's party) by converting away from Catholicism then using the Cleansing of Heresy CB to run over your neighboring archbishoprics, since (I'm pretty sure) flipping their religion will make them change their government form as well.
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May 28, 2014 15:04
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FadingChord posted:The Reformation has a way of ruining life for archbishoprics. You can even speed this up (and probably ruin Austria's party) by converting away from Catholicism then using the Cleansing of Heresy CB to run over your neighboring archbishoprics, since (I'm pretty sure) flipping their religion will make them change their government form as well. How do I swap to protestant? Take whatever random events that allow more tolerance to heretics/reformism? I know there's a menu I can access to actually make the change but not sure how to get my provinces to change.
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May 28, 2014 16:17
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:How do I swap to protestant? Take whatever random events that allow more tolerance to heretics/reformism? I know there's a menu I can access to actually make the change but not sure how to get my provinces to change. If you make the change by hand after the reformation event, they'll be very, very likely to convert. That said, if you make the change before the reformation fires, they will most likely not convert until the reformation event fires and this will be very painful.
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May 28, 2014 16:23
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:That's lame. Are they trying to stay somewhat historically accurate in preventing those civs from being as playable or are they just Euro centric? I think they said somewhere that they didn't include the Aztecs/Inca because they feel those deserve their own DLC.
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May 28, 2014 16:50
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Bishop Rodan posted:I think they said somewhere that they didn't include the Aztecs/Inca because they feel those deserve their own DLC. I'm curious what kind of DLC they would be included in. I doubt Paradox would redo colonization again and I don't think South America really has enough going on in it to justify it's own large content pack.
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May 28, 2014 16:57
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I would drop a $20+ on a DLC that gave mesoamerica its own special mechanics, kind of like a shogunate system where the big boss (the triple alliance) can temporarily cow its weaker rivals and extract tribute from them but can in turn be easily deposed if a proper coalition forms (or if a third party, like a certain Spaniard, uses one of these special mechanics to ally with an oppressed power vs. the dominant power and then makes itself the new "big boss" of the area). That said, it would be a lot of work for a part of the world that will generally live for 80 years of gameplay. I'm not sure there's going to be a DLC for mesoamerica.
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May 28, 2014 17:18
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Ethiser posted:I'm curious what kind of DLC they would be included in. I doubt Paradox would redo colonization again and I don't think South America really has enough going on in it to justify it's own large content pack. Sunset Invasion II: A New Level of Betrayal
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May 28, 2014 17:28
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I guess with WoN coming up we can take the chat about the upcoming multiplayer game to the Eu MP thread. We'll start on the 7th. There's 5 spots left, mostly in central Europe. 23 players so far. Go here if you want to sign up: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3577057&pagenumber=34#lastpost 
Trujillo fucked around with this message at 19:33 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 18:43
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NihilCredo posted:Sunset Invasion II: A New Level of Betrayal The ancient Brazilian Rain Forest civilization has returned from space and is ready to reassert themselves as the rulers of the world.
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May 28, 2014 18:47
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How does MP in this play? I'd like to play some MP but if my experience with Civ V people just wander off. And they take for loving ever to get anywhere.
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May 28, 2014 18:53
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:How does MP in this play? I'd like to play some MP but if my experience with Civ V people just wander off. And they take for loving ever to get anywhere. There's some of that. It depends on how well the game keeps everyone's interest. Past games have succumbed to stagnation due to the formation of megablocks, but I think Trujillo's rules will make some progress towards keeping things exciting. When a game has good energy, it's a lot of fun, with tons of maneuvering, backstabbing, and direct and indirect conflict.
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May 28, 2014 19:08
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Dibujante posted:There's some of that. It depends on how well the game keeps everyone's interest. Past games have succumbed to stagnation due to the formation of megablocks, but I think Trujillo's rules will make some progress towards keeping things exciting. When a game has good energy, it's a lot of fun, with tons of maneuvering, backstabbing, and direct and indirect conflict. Real time, yes? So do you guys just schedule blocks of time to play in? Does AI take over if someone can't make it?
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May 28, 2014 19:09
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:Real time, yes? Generally it runs at 1-3 speed (usually 2-speed). We just reserve a ~4 hour block to play. The AI will take over if someone can't make it, but you generally want to specify a sub, because once your country goes AI, there's no remedy if it does something stupid.
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May 28, 2014 19:11
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This is a point if you just want to try MP and see how it is: if you're in the Steam chat around the time of the game you can find out if anyone's not showing, and the AI is so bad that seriously, you're doing them a favour. Also I hope we don't have 1-speed 
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May 28, 2014 19:17
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I can't speak to the giant games, but I have a lot of fun playing this with a friend or two whenever we can find time to pick up the game for a few hours. With just two or three people you can run the game at top speed then suddenly pause and bring everything down to speed 2 when somebody has a giant war to fight. It makes the long stretches of watching colonization/diplomatic numbers slowly going up a little more bearable and really does alter the flow of the game when you're both gunning for, say, the Crimea. Or you can play as two distant powers (say, Portugal and the Mughals) and basically just acknowledge what the other player is doing on the other side of the world. Or do something wacky, like grab Burgundy and Castille and spend the first 150 years slowly tearing France in half! I'm sure that the giant games are even more fun but you don't need 8-12 people to have a good time in multiplayer.
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May 28, 2014 19:23
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