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pentyne posted:They were all Amir's sisters too, so it wasn't like like "random tribal marriage goes wrong" it was "He's beaten your sister to death so were sending you as a replacement" I thought it was just the one sister, but that he and/or his tribe were really brutal to women in general. I didn't see that there was literally one guy who had done for all of Amira's sisters on his own.
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May 28, 2014 05:45
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Che Delilas posted:I thought it was just the one sister, but that he and/or his tribe were really brutal to women in general. I didn't see that there was literally one guy who had done for all of Amira's sisters on his own. Wikipedia claims that both Atelui and Karahiga were Amir's younger sisters, but from what I can tell from looking at the chapters, neither of them are actually confirmed to be that. Though I may have missed something. In any case, Amir was terribly upset to hear about Atelui's death in particular, so she must have been close to her.
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May 28, 2014 06:53
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Van Dine posted:Wikipedia claims that both Atelui and Karahiga were Amir's younger sisters, but from what I can tell from looking at the chapters, neither of them are actually confirmed to be that. Though I may have missed something. In any case, Amir was terribly upset to hear about Atelui's death in particular, so she must have been close to her. I'm seeing "We did marry them off, but they all died" when they encountered Amir and Karluk away from the village and tried to take her back. Later, after they tried to go into the village and were repelled, the brothers were camping out and discussing matters and one of them mentions that Atelui was the one beaten to death by Numaji. The other sister(s) are dead but I don't think it's ever explicitly stated what the causes were. This is all chapter 7. Che Delilas fucked around with this message at 07:11 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 07:09
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So the first chapter of Ad Astra- Scipio to Hannibal has been translated, like the name implies it's about the two military commanders in the Punic Wars. I like the art, not sure about the rest though but I'm interested to see where it goes.
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May 28, 2014 16:13
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I hope Otoyo eventually takes a look at a Mongolian wedding as they are fantastically complicated affairs.Mongolia's Culture and Society posted:When the groom comes to take the bride, he is, by custom, well dressed and carries bow and arrows. As his part approaches, someone from the bride's home ceremoniously goes out to meet the party and stops them so they do not come close to the yurt. Then, a type of negotiating charade or protocol play takes place in which both parties have a speaker or representative who carry on dialogue; the bride's speaker insists that the party must not advance to the camp, and the groom's speaker insists that they must--stating the purpose for the visit, reciting the clan genealogy and the exploits of the family, and sometimes including a recitation by the speaker (khelmürchi) of the important events of Mongolian history from the time of Chinggis Khan. The dialogue is not carried on in common conversation, but in a highly developed art of spontaneous poetry. The bride's speaker tries to make it difficult for the groom's spokesman by changing the rhyme and meter. This, in turn, is matched and followed at every poetic turn by the spokesman of the groom.  .
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May 28, 2014 16:42
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ThingOne posted:I hope Otoyo eventually takes a look at a Mongolian wedding as they are fantastically complicated affairs. Okay I need this
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May 28, 2014 17:05
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The wedding would go through regardless of the outcome but a good set of rhymes would be remembered and repeated for generations. Consequently, choking hard was also remembered for generations so you had to choose your spokesman wisely.
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May 28, 2014 17:25
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I always like how in many cultures with bloodthirsty reputations being able to turn a good rhyme was a prized asset and noted upon in the legends and stories told about people.
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May 28, 2014 18:40
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Mongolian poetry involves lots of alliteration and rhymes on the first word instead of the last. Since they relied on oral tradition for most of their history this probably helped with memorization. It carried over to much of their written works; this is a passage from The Secret History of the Mongols, the earliest known work of Mongolian literature (written around 1226).Mama Khan to Genghis and his brother posted:You are like slut dogs that bite their own puppies after birth or like khabulan that blindly crash into the rocks. A mangghas is a legendary python-like snake. A Chulakha is a large fish. An Anggir is a type of red swan known as Yüan-yang in Chinese. The Barus is a legendary tiger. ThingOne fucked around with this message at 20:38 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 20:15
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Does it tend to have certain metres (or metres in a formal sense at all for that matter)? Is it like old German, English and Scandinavian poetry which also generally is alliterative?
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May 28, 2014 23:13
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Van Dine posted:Wikipedia claims that both Atelui and Karahiga were Amir's younger sisters, but from what I can tell from looking at the chapters, neither of them are actually confirmed to be that. Though I may have missed something. In any case, Amir was terribly upset to hear about Atelui's death in particular, so she must have been close to her. I'm pretty sure there are Halgal and Eihon family trees as one of the volume extras (4 or 5?) that clarifies this.
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May 28, 2014 23:56
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Munin posted:Does it tend to have certain metres (or metres in a formal sense at all for that matter)? All I can find is that it usually has 7-8 syllables. Honestly, I know very little about poetry in general and my ethnography's in another city. Sorry 
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May 29, 2014 04:38
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Mongolian culture is super cool and I highly recommend reading about it.
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May 29, 2014 04:40
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I can't believe how good Vinland Saga is in only 40 chapters. It's been on my list for years alongside Otoyomegatari and I finally got around to reading them both. otoyo is easily among the most beautiful things I've read, which is doubly impressive since it is black and white, and 40 chapters into Vinland Saga it is intense, gory, realistic enough and even educational at times. Still some goofy over the top poo poo, especially Thorkell even if I love'im, but also outstanding looking in addition to having an interesting story to tell. I am glad I put it off until now since there is so much left to read, I'm only a third through it. I feel like one of those folks jumping into One Piece for the first time now, with so much content, and how lucky they are to get to experience that amazing journey all at once. Every chapter of Vinland Saga feels like a journey in itself. Great stuff.
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May 31, 2014 10:09
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This is the 1st I've seen of this series being translated. Evidently its been ongoing since 2011. Apologies if it's been around and I just happened to miss it. Ad Astra Scipio and Hannibal http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Ad-Astra-Scipio-to-Hannibal/Ch-001--The-Birth-of-a--Monster?id=197901 Looks interesting so far, guess we will have a manga about the 2nd Punic war.
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Jun 1, 2014 15:09
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Zorak posted:Mongolian culture is super cool and I highly recommend reading about it. Got any recommendations for books on this?
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Jun 1, 2014 20:20
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pinegala posted:Got any recommendations for books on this? It's not directly about Mongolian culture, but Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World is good and interesting. Gives you some interesting insight on just how unique the steppes tribes were compared to agricultural societies of the times, and how their martial ability was directly tied to just how distinct their culture was. For example, the Mongolians in the time of Temujin had a complete aversion to blood being spilt / seeing or being close enough to someone to get their blood on you. So they basically went out of their way to innovate approaches to warfare that allowed them to kill people without having to enter into any sort of melee, and emphasized things like horseback archery etc. Another interesting part of this was that the most dignified way for someone to die, then, was bloodlessly. As such, the most respectful way to execute someone was to shatter their spine / break their neck. The Mongolians being the exception to basically everything written about cultures / civilizations is kind of a running joke/ Zorak fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Jun 1, 2014 |
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Jun 1, 2014 20:47
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Strangulation was seen as the most honorable way to be executed and was reserved almost entirely for the nobility. Commoners, foreigners, and the Chinese were executed by other methods including decapitation. That said, executions were reserved for only the most serious crimes. Most of the time you were either whipped with the "black lash" or simply paid a fine. For murder, the amount you had to pay depended on the status of the person killed as well as that of the murder. Killing a fellow Mongol was worse than killing a foreigner, while killing somebody from China almost wasn't a crime. Stealing a horse from a prince, on the other hand, either got you killed or lashed 107 times and exiled to Sibera  .I would recommend reading Mongolia's Culture and Society by Sechin Jagchid. It's an ethnography but it's still very readable and will tell you everything you'd ever want to know about Mongolia and more. You can get a used hardcover on amazon for less than 30$.
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Jun 1, 2014 21:57
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Would you recommend any historical fiction/films about them? The only comic I know of in that setting has Mongols as the villains: Jackard posted:Reminds me of a comic called Shuto Heru that takes place in ancient China
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Jun 1, 2014 22:09
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Just read the latest Otoyomegatari chapter. The series has officially gone to poo poo imo.
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Jun 1, 2014 22:26
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CrackedWindow posted:Just read the latest Otoyomegatari chapter. The series has officially gone to poo poo imo. Um, why? While the current bride story is hackneyed it has just barely started so I don't think we've seen enough to actually judge it, much less say it has gone to poo poo.
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Jun 2, 2014 01:40
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Jackard posted:Would you recommend any historical fiction/films about them? Well, I mean, there's probably a reason for that. It's hard to paint Genghis Khan as anything other than one of the greatest butchers in human history, unless you're really nationalist Mongolian or a revisionist historian.
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Jun 2, 2014 02:47
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TheFallenEvincar posted:Well, I mean, there's probably a reason for that. It's hard to paint Genghis Khan as anything other than one of the greatest butchers in human history, unless you're really nationalist Mongolian or a revisionist historian. Dude killed an awful lot of people, yes. On the other hand: so did Julius Caeser, Alexander the Great, and any other number of ancient imperialists. They are definitely butchers, but that doesn't mean a degree of historical perspective isn't apropos. You may call it "revisionist", but one of the interesting things that's been uncovered is that a lot of the worst stories about the Mongol's cruelty in the time of Genghis were actually propaganda created and spread by the Mongols themselves as an attempt to intimidate those they were besieging, which were often a lot of the most vivid stories that passed into modern history. e: Plus the Mongols do have more history than just Genghis and his legacy 
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Jun 2, 2014 03:31
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On the third hand, Central Asia really never recovered from the Mongol invasions. Pretty much everything from Afghanistan north to where the Aral Sea used to be was a whole lot more urbanized and centralized before the Mongols came through.
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Jun 2, 2014 03:45
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CrackedWindow posted:Just read the latest Otoyomegatari chapter. The series has officially gone to poo poo imo. Good to see goons continue their vaunted tradition of making sweeping claims when there's barely any information available
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Jun 2, 2014 05:03
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Zorak posted:Dude killed an awful lot of people, yes. On the other hand: so did Julius Caeser, Alexander the Great, and any other number of ancient imperialists. They are definitely butchers, but that doesn't mean a degree of historical perspective isn't apropos. And yeah there's definitely more to Mongol history but being one of the worst things to ever happen to giant swathes of Asia is kind of a big deal. Like Sandman mentioned, there were areas in Iran, Afghanistan, and so on that took hundreds of years to recover their population if they did at all. The man was one of the greatest brutal monsters in history and that remains regardless of the fact that he opened up new trade routes while devastating entire civilizations, or is a huge source of Mongol pride, or the fact that other murderous conquerors get less bad press (who, like I mentioned still didn't show brutality and massacre on the Khan's scale anyway except for Caesar and Gaul...but this is all irrelevant anyway since pointing this out changes nothing about Genghis). Like, I'm pretty sure I'd have better odds of survival in a city under siege by Alexander the Great or the Nazi army than one under siege by the Mongol horde. I feel like he may be the worst thing to ever befall the Middle East, perhaps even more than the Crusades. I mean, don't get me wrong, I find Genghis and the Mongols as a whole absolutely fascinating of course, I just think it's important not to lose sight of the fact that he was one of the greatest monsters of human history just because his victims go farther back than an event like the Holocaust. In addition to the Mongol media already mentioned I'd also recommend the first film of Sergei Bodrov's planned Genghis biopic trilogy (which I have to assume at this point will never fully happen), Mongol and the series on the Mongol conquests that Dan Carlin did in the Hardcore History podcast (which can vary from good to lame depending on the topic). Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Jun 2, 2014 |
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Jun 2, 2014 05:03
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The hardcore history podcast episodes on the mongols were pretty good if you're too lazy to read. He discusses a fair amount about the recent revisionist view of mongol history with regards to pax mongolica and other modern perceptions of the pinnacle of mongol conquest.
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Jun 2, 2014 05:38
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trucutru posted:Um, why? While the current bride story is hackneyed it has just barely started so I don't think we've seen enough to actually judge it, much less say it has gone to poo poo. Even ignoring the silly direction the story seems to be going in you can't deny that the current art (particularly the latest chapter)is a lot worse than the masterpiece it was in the beginning. I hope i'm wrong about the story and the next chapter turns it around but considering that the manga has been on a downward spiral since the start of the "war", i highly doubt it.
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Jun 2, 2014 13:40
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TheFallenEvincar posted:This is totally a false equivalency though, you seem to be saying the scale of the slaughtering doesn't really matter. Like, I'd call Franco and Hitler both "murderous dictators" but clearly one of them was in the big leagues when it came to being a murderous dictator. I had an acquaintance in college who was Mongolian, and it's amazing how much her and her relatives/Mongolian friends idolize Ghengis Khan. I mean, we're talking about literal shrines of the guy. I assume that it's largely because the current Mongolia doesn't exactly have much power and they like the idea of their ancestors having left such a huge mark on history, but drat; it's one of the few situations where you can compare someone with Hitler and be entirely justified in doing so. I've considered asking her about this, but I realized that it would probably not go over so well. I still would really like to hear how people like her justify their views against what Ghengis Khan and the Mongols actually did. I think that it might be comparable to how a bunch of Europeans/Westerners view people like Caesar in a positive light, though Mongolians certainly take it to a greater extreme.
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Jun 3, 2014 02:10
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Ytlaya posted:I had an acquaintance in college who was Mongolian, and it's amazing how much her and her relatives/Mongolian friends idolize Ghengis Khan. I mean, we're talking about literal shrines of the guy. I assume that it's largely because the current Mongolia doesn't exactly have much power and they like the idea of their ancestors having left such a huge mark on history, but drat; it's one of the few situations where you can compare someone with Hitler and be entirely justified in doing so. You only have to look at native Americans to realize most conquerors don't give a single poo poo about the people they trampled to get to where they are.
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Jun 3, 2014 02:21
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Zorak posted:For example, the Mongolians in the time of Temujin had a complete aversion to blood being spilt / seeing or being close enough to someone to get their blood on you. So they basically went out of their way to innovate approaches to warfare that allowed them to kill people without having to enter into any sort of melee, and emphasized things like horseback archery etc. Another interesting part of this was that the most dignified way for someone to die, then, was bloodlessly. As such, the most respectful way to execute someone was to shatter their spine / break their neck. Uh this is totally false and there was shitloads of fighting back and forth between the tribes. It could easily be described as complete anarchy based on might makes right. Hell, Temujin's wife was abducted in one of the raids and by the time he managed to get her back she was allegedly knocked up. Genghis Khan (certainly molded by the environment he lived in) is probably one of the worst individuals to ever grace the planet. gently caress he outright decapitated his brother just in front of his Mother who called him "a destroyer" Just the tagline of that book shows it's a clueless fantasy based on pop culture. "The Mongol army led by Genghis Khan subjugated more lands and people in twenty-five years than the Romans did in four hundred. " Anyone who has studied Roman history knows that they had an obsession with "just" wars and laws. Rome would spend years goading people into doing some trivial thing to upset them and then blow it out of proportion. It was extremely rare for them to just outright annex places with no cause. The Mongols would show up out of nowhere demand fealty and if it wasn't given (because the peasants logically had no idea who the gently caress the Mongols were) they'd siege it using captives as human waves then assign every rider to kill 10 or so people until the entire city was dead. These things aren't just conceived of on the fly, this poo poo is ingrained into the culture. By the time Genghis Khan passed away there was such depopulation along the silk road that it caused climate change. Of course there is going to be minimal crime when there is a lack of people in general. Every city touched by Genghis Khan went through something that makes the Rape of Nanking look like a walk in the park. Just the immediate successions after Genghis Khan prove they had no real capability of governance. The election of the 3rd Khan after Temujin was saved by chance because one of the other tribes was wheeling a wagon full of weapons towards it with intent to kill everyone present. The Chinese working for the Mongols made their Empire functional, not the Mongols themselves.
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Jun 3, 2014 03:36
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Ytlaya posted:I had an acquaintance in college who was Mongolian, and it's amazing how much her and her relatives/Mongolian friends idolize Ghengis Khan. I mean, we're talking about literal shrines of the guy. I assume that it's largely because the current Mongolia doesn't exactly have much power and they like the idea of their ancestors having left such a huge mark on history, but drat; it's one of the few situations where you can compare someone with Hitler and be entirely justified in doing so.
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Jun 3, 2014 04:18
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YouTuber posted:Uh this is totally false and there was shitloads of fighting back and forth between the tribes. It could easily be described as complete anarchy based on might makes right. This doesn't really go against their cultural practices at all? The reason why abductions were frequent was in part because it was often deemed simpler to just abandon all the livestock and women if a raid was expected. They murdered tons of people and were horrible, yes. YouTuber posted:gently caress he outright decapitated his brother just in front of his Mother who called him "a destroyer" No? His younger full-blood brother shot his older half brother to death with a bow, then they ran away and left him bleeding to death. She immediately found out and did the whole speech yes, and it resulted in him being captured and put to slavery for an extended period by one of the local noble families. Though again, the primary source for most of Genghis' personal life is the "Secret History", which is probably mostly bullshit. Zorak fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Jun 3, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 04:22
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Genghis Khan fathered so many children that 0.5% of the world's population are genetically related to him. How crazy is that?
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Jun 3, 2014 06:35
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Zorak posted:No? His younger full-blood brother shot his older half brother to death with a bow, then they ran away and left him bleeding to death. She immediately found out and did the whole speech yes, and it resulted in him being captured and put to slavery for an extended period by one of the local noble families. I think I'm getting the mother watching the event confused with Atilla the Hun, or maybe it was Caracalla/Geta for the mother screaming he was only a destroyer. There is a lot of kinslaying back in the old days. I've been awake for like 72 hours straight now and going off of just pure memory for most of what I've written so I'm most definitely wrong.
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Jun 3, 2014 19:26
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So, uh, anyone ever heard of this one little manga by the name of Điện Biên Phủ? I did a quick check of the thread and didn't find anything, but search is down, so... It's an ultra-cutesy series... set in the Vietnam War.  I'm not this is the right thread to put this in, to tell the truth- it's might be a little too far towards the fantastical- but it seemed like the least worst fit.     And I don't know what to make of it, either- it's grotesque and surreally comical by turns and I don't know if it's going anywhere with any of it because there've only been six chapters translated (and it looks like the translations are stalled, too). Thoughts, anyone?
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Jun 4, 2014 00:01
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Looks like a solid "no"
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Jun 4, 2014 02:57
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looks like sick as hell, more like.
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Jun 4, 2014 22:18
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Paracelsus posted:People are fascinated by power and the powerful, and if it's power they can participate in even by remote proxy they'll forgive pretty much anything.
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Jun 4, 2014 23:42
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achillesforever6 posted:Yeah, I'll admit that I have admired guys like Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great just for the sheer amount of genius they displayed in obtaining what they wanted. Caesar especially since he started pretty lowly and was able to reach the pinnacle of Roman authority before murdered by a corrupt senate that was upset that their false republic was falling apart. That and Caesar was also smart enough to get the common people on his side that it made him always look like the good guy. There is a bit of a difference between some sense of admiration and making the guy your national icon and unironically saying "yeah, this guy was a great man."
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Jun 5, 2014 02:17
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