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Also, Harry could walk while being pierced by those steel manacles
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Jun 2, 2014 17:11
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Tunicate posted:Also, Harry could walk while being pierced by those steel manacles Not just walk, he did a pretty credible job of fighting Tessa in Marcone's vault without the benefit of either the mantle or his magic.
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Jun 2, 2014 17:22
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He's never lost his legs when pierced by iron/steel. That only happened in Cold Days when he straight up abandoned Winter principles/duties. Iron = no more convenient ignoring of pain Abandonment of duties = no mantle = no legs
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Jun 2, 2014 17:26
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ImpAtom posted:Murphy is a major character and about as close to a secondary protagonist as the series has. She has been there literally since the short story that started the series, has had her own point-of-view stories, and is given more time, effort, energy and plot weight than literally any other character in the books besides Dresden himself. She hasn't 'outlived her plot archetype' because her role is something extremely central to the books and the core story. if by transformative you mean "a real rocket launcher" then yes
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Jun 2, 2014 18:17
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ConfusedUs posted:He's never lost his legs when pierced by iron/steel. That only happened in Cold Days when he straight up abandoned Winter principles/duties. The whole mantle situation is so messy now, with Butter's theory. We also don't know if a year and a half was long enough for Harry's super healing to fix his back. If Iron cuts off the mantle completely then that means Harry's back has healed and his need for the mantle as severely diminished.
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Jun 2, 2014 18:46
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I mean, if we want to get meta then Harry's back heals at the speed of plot because it's been floated multiple times that the mantle can be passed on and, just like his burned hand and Lasciel, he'll recover when Butcher wants him to. But that's not any fun to speculate on.
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Jun 2, 2014 18:59
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I had a wail of a time with the book, but I can;t help but agree with the point someone made on the previous page that Butcher REALLY needs to learn to kill his darlings. It's starting to feel like no-one's really under any real threat - when was the last time a major protagonist OR antagonist died? Susan? And before that Shiro? Actually, I guess it was Maeve... Either way, the series has gone on a LONG time and is becoming more and more apocalyptic, but no-one seems to be dying. I freaking loved the lightsaber of faith, though. That and a few other moments made me laugh out loud and cheer, and not a lot of books do that. Whatever his flaws, Butcher's getting better at this.
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Jun 2, 2014 20:19
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thespaceinvader posted:I had a wail of a time with the book, but I can;t help but agree with the point someone made on the previous page that Butcher REALLY needs to learn to kill his darlings. It's starting to feel like no-one's really under any real threat - when was the last time a major protagonist OR antagonist died? Susan? And before that Shiro? Actually, I guess it was Maeve... gently caress that. I'd much rather actions have consequences that are NOT death. Death is final. If Butcher killed off people, they wouldn't have the chance to do better things later! We wouldn't have had Michael's awesome return in Skin Game, or Molly's transition, or Butters' batman arc, or anything like that, if they were dead.
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Jun 2, 2014 20:22
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The problem with killing off characters is that there's nobody he really can kill without truncating a plot arc, at least in this book. He's got some characters who are pretty obviously lined up to die in the near future. (I wouldn't put a lot of money on Carlos or Ebeneezer making it to their respective retirement parties.) Also we lost the Summer and Winter ladies last book and a Nicklehead this book so the secondary cast is seeing trimming. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Jun 2, 2014 |
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Jun 2, 2014 20:25
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Another problem is, quite simply: "I need a person to do a thing, hey i know i can use-...oh god damnit i killed him off, now i have to create someone to fill the void." Theres easier ways to keep characters away. Take what's happening with Thomas and Ivy for example, they have other, possibly much more important poo poo to do then play secondary cast calls to Dresden.
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Jun 2, 2014 20:33
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Calidus posted:If Iron cuts off the mantle completely then that means Harry's back has healed and his need for the mantle as severely diminished. Iron doesn't, though. In Cold Days, Harry gets by the Little Folk nailed several times without going all paraplegic again. The only time he loses control of his legs like that is when he says something like "Screw Winter Law" and the Mantle cuts out entirely.
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Jun 2, 2014 20:34
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Has anyone started an insane theory that Goodman Grey is secretly shapeshifted Mister in human form? Because if not, let's go down that rabbit hole.
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Jun 2, 2014 20:44
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NinjaPete posted:Has anyone started an insane theory that Goodman Grey is secretly shapeshifted Mister in human form? Because if not, let's go down that rabbit hole. How's that for paying the Rent?!
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Jun 2, 2014 20:47
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Khizan posted:Iron doesn't, though. In Cold Days, Harry gets by the Little Folk nailed several times without going all paraplegic again. The only time he loses control of his legs like that is when he says something like "Screw Winter Law" and the Mantle cuts out entirely. At the Seattle signing Jim got asked this question and he did a big sarcastic "Wow! I guess that might be an inconsistency. I wonder if that's important. Nah, I'm sure it's nothing." So... Probably his legs are fine and Mab just broke them again when he said "gently caress winter law" last book.
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Jun 2, 2014 21:08
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NinjaPete posted:Has anyone started an insane theory that Goodman Grey is secretly shapeshifted Mister in human form? Because if not, let's go down that rabbit hole. That's just crazy enough to be true. We saw Mister for his first significant appearance since Ghost Story, and we know that Mister is seriously freaking, albeit in a different direction, when viewed in wizard sight. Regardingly killing characters, I like the theory that living characters are more interesting than dead ones. It means they can keep developing and we get to learn more about them. But, Nicodemus should have eaten it. His escape, AGAIN, really felt to me like it came out of plot armor. Have Tessa get the grail and bug out, sure that works, but this whole book felt like the throwdown that will finally rid us of Nick. And then it just... kinda... didn't. I just don't know how you give him another story and a satisfying resolution after giving him a whole book to beat him up. I really hope this doesn't mean that Butcher is spinning his wheels, or dragging out the conclusion ala GRRM.
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Jun 2, 2014 21:13
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ZorajitZorajit posted:That's just crazy enough to be true. We saw Mister for his first significant appearance since Ghost Story, and we know that Mister is seriously freaking, albeit in a different direction, when viewed in wizard sight. Yeah. The big problem I have with Nick's survival is that he's been effectively castrated as far as a villain goes. I don't think any villain got owned quite as hard as Nick did. Maybe Lord Raith. There are places his plot can go but it isn't really going to be possible to view him as scary anymore when Dresden has humiliated him on a regular basis now. The other big villains are terrifying and borderline unstoppable and Nick's kind of been reduced to a punchline. That said, Butcher keeps repeatedly hinting at the idea that the true defeat for Nick wouldn't be death but the willing (and non-evil) surrender of his coin so it may be building up to that.
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Jun 2, 2014 21:46
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When was it revealed that Vadderung is Kringle!? I completely missed that. Edit: Just to add, I wouldn't mind Butcher killing off Butters. I really dislike him as a character. WastedJoker fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Jun 2, 2014 |
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Jun 2, 2014 21:54
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WastedJoker posted:When was it revealed that Vadderung is Kringle!? Cold Days, near the end of the book.
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Jun 2, 2014 21:56
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Edit: that was weird First it said my post didn't go through, so I posted again...and now both of them are there.
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Jun 2, 2014 21:56
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WastedJoker posted:When was it revealed that Vadderung is Kringle!? Cold Days. Kringle is Odin is Vadderung. As for Nick, the only way I see him being scary again is if he ditches the coin and guns down Maggie's school or something like that. I think things are That Personal now, and him ditching the coin would get around Michael's family's protection. It's also exactly the sort of thing he'd do if he felt he had nothing left to lose.
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Jun 2, 2014 21:57
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ImpAtom posted:a Nicklehead Yeah, because nickelheads never come back. I'm assuming Nick kept the coin. The really interesting question is whether Urisiel and Lasciel's coins can get out of the Underworld/Hades' vault respectively. They have a good history of wangling out of tough places. I'm exaggerating, I know - and there are good points to be made about people who have unresolved arcs. But if death only came to those whose arcs had been resolved, it would never be shocking, or unfair. Existing cool characters can easily become crutches - you don't have the character do a cool thing, you have the character do something that references a previous cool thing. It's starting to happen already - though I couldn't put name to examples without rereading. Thinking about it, I'm starting to get a bit bugged by Butcher occasionally (re)introducing characters and plots either so side-character-y that I don't remember them, or which haven't actually HAPPENED on paper as far as I know - River Shoulders and Binder and Ascher come to mind. He talks about them like I should know them, but I couldn't for the life of me remember where it was they came up. Ascher seems to be new, and could have been an interesting continuing character if she hadn't died off already... probably. Binder was in Turn Coat apparently, but it's been a while and he wasn't memorable to me. River Shoulders seems to be a thing but the wiki I found doesn't say what book. I really enjoyed it, I'll say that again, and there have been some amazing moments, but in places he's relying on old coolness rather than creating new coolness, and at least some of that's due to leaning on all the old characters. Maggie and... Minerva, do we reckon?... will certainly shake things up, I hope. I really hope Nick is building up to bigger things. The way he talks makes it seem like he's actually playing the Fallen against the Outsiders, and that would be a very interesting conflict for Harry long-term. But he does feel kind of neutered at this stage, having been beaten up by BUTTERS of all people. I dunno, maybe I'm just being a curmudgeon.
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Jun 2, 2014 22:04
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Marcone will want to have his tuppence worth of him too. I am surprised there was zero mention of Nemesis though. The trapped monster from the start of the book is going to play a role in the next book, I think, and I'm hoping we see more of Uriel - even though the whole free will/choice aspect seems like a hell of a plot gimmick.
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Jun 2, 2014 22:07
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thespaceinvader posted:Yeah, because nickelheads never come back. I'm assuming Nick kept the coin. Except Hades said he is keeping her soul and Nick pretty obviously expected her soul to be kept as protection against The Enemy. It is pretty unlikely she is coming back.
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Jun 2, 2014 22:10
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River Shoulders is I think in the trilogy of Sasquatch short stories / Novella, they haven't been collected yet. Likewise how Molly got her Svartelf apartment, and then reference to Thomas's girlfriend knowing the inside of Marcone's anti-Dresden lair. The last one being the only one I've read because I was able to find it without buying a collection.WastedJoker posted:Marcone will want to have his tuppence worth of him too. I thought that guy from the start of the book was Goodman Grey.
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Jun 2, 2014 22:11
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thespaceinvader posted:River Shoulders seems to be a thing but the wiki I found doesn't say what book. River Shoulders was apparently in several short stories that haven't been part of a Dresden Files anthology yet. So most readers probably haven't read them, I certainly haven't.
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Jun 2, 2014 22:12
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Deirdre's not, but her angel almost certainly is.
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Jun 2, 2014 22:12
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I didn't understand most of what happened to get beyond the Gate of Blood, tbf.
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Jun 2, 2014 22:17
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I hope Butcher continues to not kill off major characters. I really liked having Michael around again. Killing major characters in genre series isn't a great way to go, usually. It's often just a pretty cheap way of making a bad guy seem more important, and Butcher doesn't need to do that. He's already laid out the power structure of Dresden bad guys pretty well, and they start scary and get scarier. I still think it was a huge mistake to kill off Carmichael in Fool Moon. There was plenty of potential for interesting animosity/co-operation between him and Dresden after their interactions in Storm Front, and then he died pretty pointlessly in service of Murphy's arc, at the hands of the least interesting villain in the whole series. ZorajitZorajit posted:they haven't been collected yet. My favourite thing that came out of Butcher's AMA was that the next collection of short stories was going to be called something like More Jobs, but a redditor suggested Brief Cases and he decided it was too good not to use. I wonder if it'll come out before Peace Talks. Roger Tangerines fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Jun 2, 2014 |
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Jun 2, 2014 22:17
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I'm not so sure that Nicodemus is out of the picture, though he's certainly had a major setback. Yes, he lost a lot of face (and possibly leadership of the Denarians, though I guess time will tell) but he's still very powerful and dangerous on his own, and I can't imagine he'd have a hard time putting together a gently caress You Harry Dresden team should he so desire. Arguably, he's no longer got anything to lose, and that makes him more dangerous, not less. Also, it's becoming increasingly clear that many of the various people and factions that are in the best position to oppose the Outsiders hate each other, and there's no way that's not going to be a major plot point sooner or later. (Hell, I wonder if that's not going to be what Peace Talks ends up being about.) On another, completely random note, I forgot about one thing I actually liked about Hannah's storyline. I think she represents the first time that Harry has ever tried to talk a Denarian into giving up her coin; he's always taken the hard line that they're monsters who willingly chose their fate and deserve what's coming to them (and got into it rather vigorously about that with Michael in Small Favor). Sure, there are a lot of reasons (some less noble than others) why he might decide that she deserves a second chance where he wouldn't have offered it to, say, Ursiel, but it's still a pretty big step forward for him.
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Jun 3, 2014 03:36
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I think the most disappointing part about the book is that it didn't touch on molly much, I mean Having her humanity stolen from her seems like a pretty big deal. I honestly got a bit upset, as sad as that is. Like, does she not have free will anymore or what? Isn't that basically killing her? Felt the same with with what happened to Susan way back when, only worse. Especially since she doesn't seem to even care that it happened. The rest of the book was pretty great though, the conversation at the end with Hades about pet ownership was probably the best part of the book for me. Valleyant fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Jun 3, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 03:40
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Valliantstu posted:I think the most disappointing part about the book is that it didn't touch on molly much, I mean Having her humanity stolen from her seems like a pretty big deal. I honestly got a bit upset, as sad as that is. Like, does she not have free will anymore or what? Isn't that basically killing her? Felt the same with with what happened to Susan way back when, only worse. Especially since she doesn't seem to even care that it happened. Seems like she still has free will. She's just also got a job she has to do. Being a fairy princess! 
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Jun 3, 2014 03:56
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Some thoughts. 1. Denarians Deidre told Harry that Nick's goals would "save the world." Why shouldn't we believe this? When Mab was first introduced, and for some time after, we went on Harry's assumption that Summer is Good and Winter is Bad, Mab was evil, and there was no real reason for it. As we went on, and especially after Cold Days, and we find out that, no, Summer and Winter's roles are quite different than Harry's initial impression. Winter primarily operates the struggle against the onslaught of Outsiders. Mab, for whatever reason, is not permitted to slay a mortal. But Outsiders are only summoned forth through the gates by mortals. To counter this, Mab has a mortal champion to go out and slay those pesky individuals. But what kind of restrictions are there for who gets murdered? Furthermore, what kind of influence on mortal events could Mab exert if she could have anyone killed? Cue Summer, who's purpose is to counter Winter's influence on mortal affairs. Now, the important missing detail I see here is that we have no idea how Outsiders are actually summoned. We don't even know, for example, if only wizards (or some type of summoner/summoning) can do it. But, if Outsiders seek to destroy reality, and only mortals can bring them out, and there are more mortals currently living than at any time previously, what would be the easiest way to prevent the Outsiders from breaking down reality? Presumably, by killing a lot of people. Which seems to be what Nick and the Denarians tend to want to do a lot of. Maybe the Denarians' goals are simple. They seek to prevent humanity from reaching some kind critical-mass of consciousness. Now, Mab might not want to kill that many people even if she could because her power, as well as a number of other gods, seem to have their power tied in to human consciousness and remembrance (which was why Mab pushed the publication of Grimm's Tales), so they might have a problem with murdering so many people. The ensuing chaos and might risk their potency. The Fallen, however, don't seem to have that problem. Angels existed long before anything else, they would probably exist long after as well. Most of this is just speculation, but I thought it was worth sharing. 2. Nicodemus Reading Skin Game showed me that Nicodemus is really the antithesis of everything Harry is. Harry puts his name in the phone book and tells everyone he knows he's a wizard. Nicodemus eradicates any and all historical information on him. Harry fights for whatever he feels he needs to out in the open, using whatever he has available. His combat capabilities are well known. Nicodemus never steps into the arena unless he absolutely has to, and Harry noted his combat abilities were still in the dark (Heh). His motives are as of yet, not truly known. Harry's love of his friends, family, and any life in need, is his greatest source of strength and motivation for his actions. Nicodemus considers love, especially the love of his daughter, his greatest weakness, and hinderance. Harry was willing to let the world burn if it meant he was there for his child. Nicodemus was willing to sacrifice his daughter, if it meant saving the world (if Deidre was correct). I would agree that Nick was off his game this book. He never had to sacrifice so much.
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Jun 3, 2014 04:22
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Just a random thought about the Winter Mantle, the reason it might not be as effective on Harry is that most of the power is being passively used to amplify his wizard healing ability so there isn't that much left for him to actually draw on.
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Jun 3, 2014 04:31
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Tornhelm posted:Just a random thought about the Winter Mantle, the reason it might not be as effective on Harry is that most of the power is being passively used to amplify his wizard healing ability so there isn't that much left for him to actually draw on. Alternatively he also keeps forcing it back down which might only allow small bits of it through. The realization that Harry is just unrestricted in use of his muscles could just be a passive by product of winters power and not the actual power up he received from Mab
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Jun 3, 2014 04:57
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Has anyone gone back and looked for Harry's commands to Grey? If so, what were they?
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Jun 3, 2014 08:39
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Tornhelm posted:Just a random thought about the Winter Mantle, the reason it might not be as effective on Harry is that most of the power is being passively used to amplify his wizard healing ability so there isn't that much left for him to actually draw on. I don't think the mantles were all that powerful to begin with, the last summer knight died falling down stairs after all.
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Jun 3, 2014 09:15
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I think that, in general, power differences aren't as great as we'd like to think.
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Jun 3, 2014 10:00
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Waltzing Along posted:Has anyone gone back and looked for Harry's commands to Grey? If so, what were they? I checked a couple - Grey uses code to confirm that he didn't murder Harvey and make sure Michael had the OK from his boss.
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Jun 3, 2014 10:22
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Sir Rabia Tirnova posted:Did no one else catch that harry touches the real grail and feels a body wide tingle? If that's the real grail, then he no longer needs the winter mantle to keep himself chugging along. I hosed this up because I was phone posting. What I meant to say was that Harry touched the true Shroud of Turin, not drank from the grail, and then felt the tingle[/b]
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Jun 3, 2014 10:57
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So far Lasciel/Ascher is the only fallen angel which eyes are purple instead of green. Why is that?
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Jun 3, 2014 14:08
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