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Captain_Maclaine posted:No, actually, it's a short summation of more than one established study on how the American right deals with POW/MIA issues post-Vietnam. Mike Allen's Until the Last Man Comes Home: POWs, MIAs, and the Unending War in Vietnam and H. Bruce Franklin's MIA, or, Mythmaking in America being only the two most prominent examples I could name off hand. But feel free to be an idiot about it anyway! Those are some cool book titles, but I know several people who got to go search for Bergdahl and got to see their buddies shot up, locals get their villages disrupted and searched and their livelihoods hosed with, watch projects they'd been working on cease to exist or erode away as the local population got pissed about the constant searches for him, and so on. I'm not talking from the standpoint of the crotchety old man on Facebook, but the people who no poo poo had to carry shattered human bodies onto helicopters* *Before some GiPer loses his/her mind, I'm a pogue, but know/work with people who got to attend the funerals of their squadmates who died searching for Bergdahl. edit: joeburz posted:Oh well if yet another soldier says he deserted then obviously he deserted and that's the end of that chapter. You're casually dismissing the psychological explanation given and then saying "welp this guy said it happened this way" without realizing its a hodgepodge of hearsay and assumptions. Being in proximity to him doesn't automatically give them credibility, exactly for the reasons people have listed that you dismiss. If I didn't know the author of that Beast article, I'd likely agree. But I know him and he's not an idiot, and he has very carefully put together an account of the event which he withheld out of respect, for fear that the story might endanger Bergdahl, even after he exited the military. Yes, this is personal bias, fine. I guess the view is even clearer from your computer desk. mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 03:20
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mlmp08 posted:Those are some cool book titles, but I know several people who got to go search for Bergdahl and got to see their buddies shot up, locals get their villages disrupted and searched and their livelihoods hosed with, watch projects they'd been working on cease to exist or erode away as the local population got pissed about the constant searches for him, and so on. I'm not talking from the standpoint of the crotchety old man on Facebook, but the people who no poo poo had to carry shattered human bodies onto helicopters* I fail to see how any of that contradicts those, and other studies that I could mention, that document well how clearly the right wing in America have manipulated and spun POW/MIA issues for their own ends, usually as ways of validating those wars they've fought and spinning embarrassing defeats into shining victories much as I said. Seriously, Nixon and Reagan both were knee-deep in this poo poo (the former explicitly to steal the prisoner issue away from the anti-war crowd, the latter as he was a true believer and had been in a POW movie in the fifties), to name only the two most prominent conservatives who used the issue exactly as I've mentioned it. That not everyone buys into that narrative in no way disproves the clear existence of it within the modern right with regards to prisoners of war, no matter how many dudes you know what went out into the boonies this one time, maaaaaan. Cheekio posted:I'm pretty sure your experience isn't typical of the average American or most members of the media. Those books might be more than just cool titles, you never know til you've read them. They are, and he should!
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Jun 5, 2014 03:33
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edit: beaten by someone more eloquent.
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Jun 5, 2014 03:33
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Today, Drudge joked that the patio chair Hillary leaned on in a photo was a walker. Because she is so old! And the Washington Free Beacon used this to spend the day trolling, getting both People and Media Matters to respond. So that's what we have to look forward to for the next ten years.
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Jun 5, 2014 03:36
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Captain_Maclaine posted:I fail to see how any of that contradicts those, and other studies that I could mention, To clarify, I've no doubt that rear end in a top hat right wing people who have no connection to the military at all get mad about dumb poo poo like POW/MIA without "truly" caring. I also am not a cretin who thinks we shouldn't have even tried to get Bergdahl back. I just think there are some legitimate, very serious gripes to be made by those who have been legally disallowed from saying that Bergdahl is not some hero who got captured, but rather that he's a guy who, for one reason or the other, abandoned his post.
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Jun 5, 2014 03:50
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Fried Chicken posted:If you have actual numbers on it I'd love to see them. I was not trying to invoke a stereotype, I was going off the larger trends and assuming they were reflected in the gay community as well. I guess you're talking about couples in particular rather than LGBT people as a whole. For everyone both couples and singles, the Gallup poll MaxxBot posted is the one I usually refer to. Since it doesn't give direct information about couples it doesn't directly contradict the idea that married gay couples are more affluent than average. There's also this report on LGBT poverty and a followup which indicates that couples with two men are less likely to be below the poverty line. Everyone else basically gets screwed. Children raised in households headed by two men or two women are more likely to be in poverty than children in opposite sex couples. Families with children are more likely to be in poverty than those without, so looking at the children's poverty rate gives an idea of how much of the effect is simply having less children than average. If same sex families have more children in the future, then I'd expect that to erode away. If we're looking at actual legally married couples, I'd reckon that which states allow same sex marriage also has an effect. If you rank states by income using just about any metric, the poor states tend to be the ones that disallow same sex marriage. They also tend to not have laws about employment and housing discrimination among other things and honestly also tend to be the ones that need them. I don't have direct evidence that they're dragging down the numbers for opposite sex marriages while leaving same sex marriages unscathed, but I think it's a pretty safe bet. As far as stereotyping and that sort of stuff goes, I'm not offended or anything like that. I think that the stereotypes tend to be used to downplay the importance of LGBT equality. Yeah, there's gay and bisexual rich white men who'd benefit from marriage equality. A lot of them are shitheads for any of a billion different reasons. However this whole thread of discussion started with a group pretty much made for those shitheads closing up shop. The problem is really more about hurting anyone less privileged in order to spite the GOProud crew.
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Jun 5, 2014 04:41
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mlmp08 posted:I just think there are some legitimate, very serious gripes to be made by those who have been legally disallowed from saying that Bergdahl is not some hero who got captured, but rather that he's a guy who, for one reason or the other, abandoned his post. This is a straw man. Who, besides the hypocrite right wingers from 2-3 years ago, were calling him a hero? Most everyone on the left basically let the rhetoric stop at "He is a soldier who was captured, and deserves to be brought home." They specifically did not do the thing the Bush administration did with Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch where they fabricated their stories in order to try to boost recruitment numbers. There's no need to tear Bergdahl down because there's not really anyone who'd been building him up. The claim he abandoned his post was written about right after this thing started. The whole thing with vets giving interviews about him seems extremely petty and wrong. A guy comes home after 5 years, and the first thing that occurs to them as a fellow veteran is bad-mouth the guy in the media after he had already been bad-mouthed for the last 5 years. That doesn't seem right to me, and for you to excuse that behavior makes you seem petty too. I can point you to HuffPo articles from 2009 "asking questions" about Bergdahl's disappearance. Nobody beyond a few loonies has tried to claim he's anything other than a guy in a really bad situation that deserves to be brought home. edit: This guy below me made good points and is saying it better than I did. ErIog fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 05:08
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mlmp08 posted:To clarify, I've no doubt that rear end in a top hat right wing people who have no connection to the military at all get mad about dumb poo poo like POW/MIA without "truly" caring. This is were the hang up is for most people, since leaving your post can be often qualified by many different things, one of those big things being mental illness or fear from hazing. This isn't the first time a US Army soldier has walked off base, war and foreign countries are amazingly scary places for young inexperienced troopers and it really doesn't take that much to make someone snap especially if their unit is treating them like poo poo. He obviously didn't toe the line that they were there for a good reason, and he had sympathy for the locals (Which is actually a good thing and Iv personally got veterans in my family who said they felt like poo poo about how mistreated the locals often were). The fact this guy gets to come home to a country that now hates him, despite spending five loving years as a POW stuck in a cave, is absolutely disgusting.
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Jun 5, 2014 05:19
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Joementum posted:Today, Drudge joked that the patio chair Hillary leaned on in a photo was a walker. Because she is so old! And the Washington Free Beacon used this to spend the day trolling, getting both People and Media Matters to respond. Man, I don't know what the problem is. One of the greatest presidents this country ever had couldn't walk unassisted for the entirety of his term. I sincerely doubt anyone would have been calling him weak, either.
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Jun 5, 2014 05:27
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He could have personally went up to 6 soldiers and shot them in the head, and I'd still think a non-controversal opinion would be bringing him back to the US to face his crimes in court. Considering whatever he has done is far less than that, what's the problem other than Obama Do A Thing?
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Jun 5, 2014 05:28
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joeburz posted:He could have personally went up to 6 soldiers and shot them in the head, and I'd still think a non-controversal opinion would be bringing him back to the US to face his crimes in court. Speaking according to logic and the facts about the surrounding circumstances, absolutely nothing. But Obama Can't Win, Ever, so yeah. I'm just mad that it's affecting Bergdahl himself. Obama I'm pretty sure can take it, he understands the stakes. Bergdahl just got imprisoned and maybe tortured for five years and he's coming back to this horrifying lovely political shell game, which is going out of its way to brand him as a traitor and scum of the earth because he was involved in A Thing Obama Did. The way the right has been treating him loving disgusts me.
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Jun 5, 2014 05:31
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joeburz posted:He could have personally went up to 6 soldiers and shot them in the head, and I'd still think a non-controversal opinion would be bringing him back to the US to face his crimes in court. We went through a massive amount of hurdles to get actual defectors and people who ran off base to join the enemy out of POW camps back in Vietnam and Korea. Most of these people were never tried and convicted of anything because the military understands when you shove a bunch of often times mentally fragile young troopers in a lovely hostile war zone people snap, people have doubts, and people try and get out. There is a reason noone has been shot for desertion since world war 2.
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Jun 5, 2014 05:31
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mlmp08 posted:To clarify, I've no doubt that rear end in a top hat right wing people who have no connection to the military at all get mad about dumb poo poo like POW/MIA without "truly" caring. The only people calling him a hero are fucksticks four years ago using him as a cudgel. Most people are just disgusted at the idea he wasn't "worth saving" because some random grunts said a thing and he wasn't a cheery soldier. Even if he 100% is a total traitor we don't loving leave people behind, and he should be tried here. That's the debate here.
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Jun 5, 2014 05:35
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Redeye Flight posted:Man, I don't know what the problem is. One of the greatest presidents this country ever had couldn't walk unassisted for the entirety of his term. I sincerely doubt anyone would have been calling him weak, either.
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Jun 5, 2014 05:36
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Tatum Girlparts posted:The only people calling him a hero are fucksticks four years ago using him as a cudgel. Most people are just disgusted at the idea he wasn't "worth saving" because some random grunts said a thing and he wasn't a cheery soldier. He shouldn't be tried here, number 1 because this guy spent 5 years as a POW and we don't prosecute POW's even if they did give information to their captors because they were a loving POW. One of the shitiest things that can happen to you. I can't even see were any of the logic is here, I guess being tortured and almost dying in captivity isn't enough.
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Jun 5, 2014 05:39
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Anyone who calls him a hero is most likely not in possession of all the facts. Anybody calling for his head or saying that he should have been left behind, however, should be ashamed of themselves. In the past 150 years, only a single person in the United States Armed Forces has been shot for desertion, and that was under extraordinary circumstances during some of the heaviest fighting the US Army has ever seen. What makes this man's crimes so great that he should be left imprisoned a world away from home? It's a sad example of the piss-poor state of affairs in this country that bringing home a POW, no matter the circumstances of their imprisonment, is somehow controversial.
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Jun 5, 2014 05:46
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JT Jag posted:You don't think literally overthrowing a feudal system results in a long-term improvement for the poor and working class? Not always. See: invasion of Tibet by Chinese forces.
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Jun 5, 2014 05:53
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Anyone who calls him a hero is most likely not in possession of all the facts. The word 'hero' is pretty much synonymous with 'soldier' at this point, though. It's pretty much exclusively used for political dick-waving.
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Jun 5, 2014 05:55
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TheRamblingSoul posted:Not always. Conquest by a foreign power is bad? You don't say! Pack it up, democrats, overthrowing feudalism is bad because a feudal society got conquered one time and look how bad that turned out.
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Jun 5, 2014 05:56
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Alexzandvar posted:He shouldn't be tried here, number 1 because this guy spent 5 years as a POW and we don't prosecute POW's even if they did give information to their captors because they were a loving POW. One of the shitiest things that can happen to you. I thought I was pretty clearly talking about some magic situation where we for sure know he was a literal traitor to the nation and not a ho spent five years deep in poo poo for the "bring him here to accuse him" bit.
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Jun 5, 2014 06:08
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Yeah they already implemented those damned debit card pay things that cost money to access the money they're paying you. Companies like AMC and Wal-Mart are definitely pushing the debit cards as an alternative to direct deposit, so it's not really that big of a leap from here to actual company scrip.
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Jun 5, 2014 06:15
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SedanChair posted:Wait did you think he paid his workers in predatory birds? I am busting up laughing at 1 am. Thanks for being a great poster and adding mirth to an often depressing thread.  E: sorry, double post on phone
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Jun 5, 2014 06:28
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New OP is almost done but I need to get to bed. If someone can find the post I made (I thought it was here but I'm not seeing it) detailing what is going on with reproductive rights where I talked contraception and South Dakota's abortion desert I want to crib that. Also we need a drink
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Jun 5, 2014 06:47
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USPol June: Bombs over Bergdahl
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Jun 5, 2014 06:54
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USPOL June: Abusing Beta Blockers also still love US Pol June: Class DoorFare Relentlessboredomm fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 07:17
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USPOL June: Oliver North literally insulted a man for "negotiating with terrorists and putting Americans in danger" and wasn't laughed off set.
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Jun 5, 2014 07:25
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Tatum Girlparts posted:USPOL June: Oliver North literally insulted a man for "negotiating with terrorists and putting Americans in danger" and wasn't laughed off set. Yeah but the rapine of Salvadorean nuns is a huge national security boost.
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Jun 5, 2014 07:30
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah but the rapine of Salvadorean nuns is a huge national security boost. Remember this is also the party of "legitimate rape." Do you know what those nuns were wearing at the time? They have some interesting dress habits.
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Jun 5, 2014 07:42
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joeburz posted:He could have personally went up to 6 soldiers and shot them in the head, and I'd still think a non-controversal opinion would be bringing him back to the US to face his crimes in court. 
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Jun 5, 2014 07:48
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mlmp08 posted:If I didn't know the author of that Beast article, I'd likely agree. But I know him and he's not an idiot, and he has very carefully put together an account of the event which he withheld out of respect, for fear that the story might endanger Bergdahl, even after he exited the military.
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Jun 5, 2014 07:51
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USPOL June: Boehner bashing Obama's boners: Bergdahl, Benghazi, and VA Benefits
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Jun 5, 2014 07:57
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USPOL June: kill yourself
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Jun 5, 2014 08:17
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Swan Oat posted:USPOL June: kill yourself Has anyone not done this yet? This ain't AUSPOL. Seriously, no jokes do it now.
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Jun 5, 2014 08:18
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Swan Oat posted:USPOL June: kill yourself agarjogger posted:Has anyone not done this yet? This ain't AUSPOL. Seriously, no jokes do it now. You mean have we not yet killed ourselves? Workin' on it, boss.
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Jun 5, 2014 08:20
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Wait gently caress now I feel bad. Get help or get booze.
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Jun 5, 2014 08:22
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USPOL June: This is not how to do it
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Jun 5, 2014 08:31
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quote:USPol June: Bombs over Bergdahl Both of these are excellent.
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Jun 5, 2014 08:59
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eNeMeE posted:So the Beast article isn't that account? Or am I completely misreading that? He didn't say a word until Bergdahl was safely in US hands again. The supposed reason for the initial gag order was to protect the prisoner from mistreatment or murder by his captors.
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Jun 5, 2014 09:06
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JT Jag posted:The Presidency was considered a much more sacrosanct institution during the 1930s and 40s than it is now. Most Americans didn't even know Roosevelt was paralyzed. The reason why the White House desk has a solid front instead of a cutout is that it was modified to hide his wheelchair from visitors.
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Jun 5, 2014 09:23
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US CCG Trading thread: Don't trade 5 Rares for stolen cards
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Jun 5, 2014 09:42
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