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There's been religious extremism and abuse in schools for ages, it's just that most of the political elite have ignored it because it came from a relatively accepted Abrahamic sect.
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Jun 11, 2014 20:09
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bitterandtwisted posted:Tell us more about how much Scottish votes matter (they don't).
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Jun 11, 2014 20:36
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Seaside Loafer posted:Wouldnt a yes vote mean we are well hosed in England because we loose a shitload of Labour MP's? Not really. You'd have a Tory majority instead of the current coalition, but there's never been a Labour victory that wouldn't have been a victory without Scottish voters.
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Jun 11, 2014 20:38
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Seaside Loafer posted:Wouldnt a yes vote mean we are well hosed in England because we loose a shitload of Labour MP's? Here's my grand sociological experiment proposal: England, Scotland. Two nations so alike in society, climate, population and problems. Two nations so alike, but leaning opposite ways politically. England predominantly Tory, Scotland predominantly Labour. I propose that the nations be divided and run independently for a period of fifty years. England will progress towards a right wing heaven, Scotland a left wing utopia. At the end of the experiment, whichever political system has done better (against a pre-agreed set of metrics such as GDP, Gross National Happiness, societal inequality) is declared superior. The winning country is obliged to send tanks across the border, liquidate the losing parliament and claim sovereignty over all. Ireland can be the control group.
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Jun 11, 2014 20:57
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TinTower posted:There's been religious extremism and abuse in schools for ages, it's just that most of the political elite have ignored it because it came from a relatively accepted Abrahamic sect. I had to go to rather extreme lengths to get out of mandatory mass at my secular grammar school and frankly I've probably never done anything more offensive in protest in my life. The government are being loving hypocrites. Religion never has and never will have a place in schools, the same as any other vested interest. Learning and induction are not bedfellows.
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Jun 11, 2014 21:01
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Spangly A posted:I had to go to rather extreme lengths to get out of mandatory mass at my secular grammar school and frankly I've probably never done anything more offensive in protest in my life. It's just a matter of time until the status quo on religion in UK public life is broken. In 30 or 40 years, all the people in positions of power will be from a generation that never knew religion as an important part of their lives. It will slide into irrelevancy as a result. Prince John fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 21:14
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Endjinneer posted:whichever political system has done better (against a pre-agreed set of metrics such as GDP, Gross National Happiness, societal inequality) is declared superior. Now that GDP is going to include drug dealer and prostitution turnover, it's probably a slam dunk, although I'm not sure which way. (Also, bear this in mind when the tories announce that our economy has grown by 5% in september when the next GDP figures are published) SybilVimes fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 21:17
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Endjinneer posted:Here's my grand sociological experiment proposal: I don't know, going by vote share, Scotland does like to vote Tory and for a lot of pretty right-wing parties. The SNP isn't exactly far left. And England is all over the place, regions of England tend to be far more left- or right- wing than others. I think federalism would be a good shout. Something like Germany or the USA, but without the neo-liberalism I would hope, except in the south-east, which'd end up like our version of Florida. We might even get a Yorkshire assembly then, if they were a state.
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Jun 11, 2014 21:30
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Prince John posted:It's just a matter of time until the status quo on religion in UK public life is broken. In 30 or 40 years, all the people in positions of power will be from a generation that never knew religion as an important part of their lives. It will slide into irrelevancy as a result. Eton posted:Not every Etonian would call himself a committed religious believer; many have doubts which they can and do express freely. However, up to two thirds of the boys are confirmed during their time at Eton, and the climate in the school is sympathetic to Christian life and practice.
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Jun 11, 2014 21:36
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Can we just physically separate England from the rest of the UK and push Wales, Scotland and Ireland together? It'll be great fun.
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Jun 11, 2014 21:36
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Yeah because English people are loving arseholes but everyone in those other countries are all cool and fun as hell.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:25
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Pissflaps posted:Yeah because English people are loving arseholes but everyone in those other countries are all cool and fun as hell. This but unironically. bitterandtwisted posted:Not really. You'd have a Tory majority instead of the current coalition, but there's never been a Labour victory that wouldn't have been a victory without Scottish voters. The 1964 and 1974 elections were Labour majorities that would have been Tory majorities if Scotland didn't exist, but you're right in that those were both abnormally short terms (both or either one was a hung parliament, I forget) and it's not a frequent occurrence. Spooky Hyena fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 22:34
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Spooky Hyena posted:This but unironically. Yeah pretty much. Another accidental truth by noted racist Pissflaps.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:54
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If I move to Scotland will I stop being an arsehole?
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Jun 11, 2014 23:12
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Mr N posted:If I move to Scotland will I stop being an arsehole? Nae guarantee but a better NHS, free education, cheaper prescriptions and a Pizza Crunch supper will do strange things to a man.
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Jun 11, 2014 23:13
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Gonzo McFee posted:Yeah pretty much. Another accidental truth by noted racist Pissflaps. Remind me again what makes me racist I need cheering up.
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Jun 11, 2014 23:15
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big scary monsters posted:I'm a bit unsure on this bit. I thought that the Home Office had yet to approve the use of water cannon, or have I misunderstood? Might the Met end up with three cannon that they aren't allowed to use? No, they haven't approved their use on the mainland UK. However the process of approval is literally just the Home Secretary telling the Chief Constable of the force in question they they can use them (although that can be with restrictions, and the force themself can put restrictions on, which is why some forces give Tazers to most (not all - yet) officers whereas the Met only allow armed coppers to have them). I've only just realised the internal political dimension of this story. Theresa May was resistant to the idea of expanding police equipment and tactics even at the height of the riots, and Boris is of course another contender in a future leadership election. So he's throwing down a bit of a gauntlet here - if she doesn't approve it he can say "See, she's soft on these criminal scum". If she does approve it then he gets to smug it up about how he forced her hand and ask who's the real power in the party. PiCroft posted:I was actually going to ask about this - My understanding of water cannons is that they exist to disperse crowds which is generally the opposite of what riot police in the UK do, fond as they are of kettling. Exactly. I was struck at the time how quickly the old bill abandoned kettling when dealing with an actual hostile (to them directly) crowd and went back to the old-fashioned "turn up, make a lot of noise, and hope they run away" tactics familiar to anyone who went to football games in the 80s. Kettling can only work when you're dealing with a crowd that is peaceful (in the majority) because it's utter suicide when dealing with people who are actually going to fight, because you're concentrating their numbers.
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Jun 11, 2014 23:30
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Ddraig posted:Can we just physically separate England from the rest of the UK and push Wales, Scotland and Ireland together? It'll be great fun. What about Northern Ireland though? Pissflaps posted:Yeah because English people are loving arseholes but everyone in those other countries are all cool and fun as hell. If there are any cool and fun as hell English people we can set up a 1-1 cool-arsehole exchange.
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Jun 11, 2014 23:35
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goddamnedtwisto posted:As to when - as with all other measures, that's up to Gold Command, normally a Chief Inspector or higher, for the event in question, with the option of whether or not to use them granted by the Commissioner (within the limits imposed by the Home Office).
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Jun 12, 2014 00:13
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Exactly. I was struck at the time how quickly the old bill abandoned kettling when dealing with an actual hostile (to them directly) crowd and went back to the old-fashioned "turn up, make a lot of noise, and hope they run away" tactics familiar to anyone who went to football games in the 80s. Kettling can only work when you're dealing with a crowd that is peaceful (in the majority) because it's utter suicide when dealing with people who are actually going to fight, because you're concentrating their numbers. On this note what is the stated rationale for kettling? Shoving a bunch of people into cramped conditions without access to toilets, water, etc. has a very high chance of doing nothing except aggravating the situation and this is something that seems tremendously obvious. I don't doubt they like the idea of aggravating the situation for a variety of reasons, but obviously they can't actually say that, so I'm curious about how they actually sell kettling.
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Jun 12, 2014 07:54
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Mister Adequate posted:On this note what is the stated rationale for kettling? Shoving a bunch of people into cramped conditions without access to toilets, water, etc. has a very high chance of doing nothing except aggravating the situation and this is something that seems tremendously obvious. I don't doubt they like the idea of aggravating the situation for a variety of reasons, but obviously they can't actually say that, so I'm curious about how they actually sell kettling. It makes the prospect of any future peaceful protest totally unappealing. First timer protesters, like in the student protests a couple of years back, turn up, passionate and excited to be engaging in protest, in a crowd of like minded people, then find themselves stood in their own piss for 6 hours, tired and hungry. Its very successful. Most people dont want to do that again. Well other than extremists and thats what the water cannon are for right? Serotonin fucked around with this message at 08:00 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 07:58
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Mister Adequate posted:On this note what is the stated rationale for kettling? Shoving a bunch of people into cramped conditions without access to toilets, water, etc. has a very high chance of doing nothing except aggravating the situation and this is something that seems tremendously obvious. I don't doubt they like the idea of aggravating the situation for a variety of reasons, but obviously they can't actually say that, so I'm curious about how they actually sell kettling. The stated reasons are to localise disruption, minimise property damage, allow everyone to be formally identified/arrested with the minimum of police numbers, and control the rate of dispersal. It sort of makes sense on those terms when you look at, for example, the 90s May Day protests, where after the approved march the marchers dispersed as requested but then blocked off quite big chunks of London in smaller groups. That it tends to escalate situations and provide a nice easy photo opportunity and an excuse for truncheons to start swinging is, I'm sure, entirely coincidental.
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Jun 12, 2014 08:03
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Yeah I can imagine it's very effective. They completely avoid having too have any negative footage of cops steaming in with batons that get played over and over on social media and incite others to join. Also if you are a middle class kid from the home counties it would be a badge of honour coming home with a black eye or some thing. Having to ride the train home having shat yourself probably doesn't and just means you slink off and don't come back.
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Jun 12, 2014 08:10
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goddamnedtwisto posted:In fact, I'm struggling to think of a mainland UK example this century where there have been large groups to disperse that weren't actually caused by the police kettling people in and not allowing them to disperse (and then loving baton charging them anyway). The Met's own justification for getting them lists: 2004 Countryside Alliance protests 1999 carnival against capitalism 2002 Millwall v Birmingham football riots 2010 Millbank student protest Not sure how they'd get them up the stairs for the last one.
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Jun 12, 2014 09:29
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bitterandtwisted posted:Not really. You'd have a Tory majority instead of the current coalition, but there's never been a Labour victory that wouldn't have been a victory without Scottish voters. The total collapse of Scottish Conservatism only really happened in the 90s though. Back in the 60s and 70s, Conservatives were getting about 40% of the populations votes, and around 1/3 of the seats. It totally makes sense that this slightly below national average result would have a low impact on the overall results. In the 80s the vote share collapsed, but due to the way First Past the Post works, they managed to hang on to a big chunk of seats. It is only in the generation since the 90s that Scotland has been united in its rejection of Conservatives. And in that generation, there have been multiple strong Labour victories, and one weak Tory victory that would have been strong without the influence of Scotland.
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Jun 12, 2014 10:04
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McDragon posted:Don't worry, they were hacked, honest. Of course they were. Repeatedly.    
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Jun 12, 2014 10:26
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Mr N posted:If I move to Scotland will I stop being an arsehole? No. Just look at coohoolin for evidence of this.
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Jun 12, 2014 10:32
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Undead Hippo posted:The total collapse of Scottish Conservatism only really happened in the 90s though. Back in the 60s and 70s, Conservatives were getting about 40% of the populations votes, and around 1/3 of the seats. It totally makes sense that this slightly below national average result would have a low impact on the overall results. In the 80s the vote share collapsed, but due to the way First Past the Post works, they managed to hang on to a big chunk of seats. It is only in the generation since the 90s that Scotland has been united in its rejection of Conservatives. And in that generation, there have been multiple strong Labour victories, and one weak Tory victory that would have been strong without the influence of Scotland. a majority of 9 is not a 'strong victory'. it's barely workable and would have still needed Lib Dem support and/or collapsed.
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Jun 12, 2014 10:51
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Why did Scotland switch from being fairly Tory voting to mostly Labour voting? it couldn't simply have been Thatcher.
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Jun 12, 2014 10:52
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I think it probably was, and maybe the Poll Tax specifically.
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Jun 12, 2014 10:54
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If Scotland does get independence, is there anything to stop the line from being redrawn? I know that back when devolution kicked in meaning free prescriptions / higher education Berwick made noises about Scotland looking awfully nice and they wouldn't mind joining them. As someone who lives a couple of miles north of Wallsend I'd be okay with using the line Hadrian laid down.
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Jun 12, 2014 10:55
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PiCroft posted:Why did Scotland switch from being fairly Tory voting to mostly Labour voting? it couldn't simply have been Thatcher. Scotland was never with the Conservative part as we know it. They used to vote mainly for the Progressive Party, which was a weird union of Conservatives and Liberals whose basic plaform was "gently caress the Labour Party"
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Jun 12, 2014 11:05
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Pissflaps posted:I think it probably was, and maybe the Poll Tax specifically. I'm going by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Scotland#1979 but it looks like Labour became the favorite party of Scotland pre-Thatcher and certainly before the Poll Tax. In fact it seems from the lists there that the last time the Conservatives had majority in Scotland was 1955.
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Jun 12, 2014 11:06
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Party Boat posted:If Scotland does get independence, is there anything to stop the line from being redrawn? I know that back when devolution kicked in meaning free prescriptions / higher education Berwick made noises about Scotland looking awfully nice and they wouldn't mind joining them. are you expecting berwick to break away like the crimea? in principle nothing to stop it happening. but it'd be more hassle than either holyrood or westminster would care to deal with.
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Jun 12, 2014 11:24
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Pissflaps posted:I think it probably was, and maybe the Poll Tax specifically. but there's also the betreyal over the devolution vote. promises were made about a 'no' vote that were completely reneged upon. that scotland's oil & gas wealth wasn't being used to any benefit in scotland.
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Jun 12, 2014 11:26
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Party Boat posted:If Scotland does get independence, is there anything to stop the line from being redrawn? I know that back when devolution kicked in meaning free prescriptions / higher education Berwick made noises about Scotland looking awfully nice and they wouldn't mind joining them. A surprising number of folk seem to think that the border is Hadrian's wall, like Rory Stewart who wanted 100k people to join hands along it as a sign of solidarity with Scotland. I'm sure that Scotland will graciously accept Carlisle, half of Newcastle, and everything in-between.
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Jun 12, 2014 11:29
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Cerv posted:that's the big one. Of course that won't happen if we vote No this time.
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Jun 12, 2014 11:31
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Gonzo McFee posted:Of course that won't happen if we vote No this time. You still haven't told me why you think I'm racist?
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Jun 12, 2014 11:34
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Cerv posted:are you expecting berwick to break away like the crimea? I honestly don't think it would ever get beyond tubthumping to draw attention to local issue of the day (as it has previously). Just interested to know if it would be possible in theory. Northumbria already has pipes, tartans and a hatred of the South / love of horrible fried things.
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Jun 12, 2014 11:42
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Party Boat posted:I honestly don't think it would ever get beyond tubthumping to draw attention to local issue of the day (as it has previously). Just interested to know if it would be possible in theory. Maybe time for a campaign for Northumbrian independence? 
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Jun 12, 2014 11:45
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