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kalstrams posted:Dubya - Bush? George W. ("Dubya" - W) Bush is sometimes referred to by that name to differentiate him from his father, George H. W. Bush.
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Jun 14, 2014 22:20
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New Division posted:Nah, I don't think so. Not yet anyway. But it they will be in the area just in case. I'm pretty surprised that "Iraqi Predator Drones" haven't been shooting "Iraqi Hellfire Missiles" at anything yet. Are they all tied up in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Yemen?
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Jun 14, 2014 22:29
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fknlo posted:I'm pretty surprised that "Iraqi Predator Drones" haven't been shooting "Iraqi Hellfire Missiles" at anything yet. Are they all tied up in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Yemen? There are around, mostly in Jordan, but given how fluid the situation is right now there would be a significant chance that the "ISIS column" they attack ends up being a refugee column, and then everyone gets embarrassed. I bet they are flying over the country now, but my suspicion is that the focus is on gathering what recon they can get. The Iraqis do have a few air assets they are using to launch airstrikes right now. They are helicopters for the most part. They aren't completely bereft of air assets. Problem is they aren't good at logistics and maintenance or targeting. A couple of rumors have already been floating around online about Iraqi helicopters blasting their own retreating columns.
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Jun 14, 2014 22:38
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kalstrams posted:Dubya - Bush? If you say "W" in a sufficiently southern American accent (or a parody of what one sounds like, really), it sounds kinda like Dubya, and as Rogue0071 mentioned, the only way to tell which George Bush you're talking about is their middle initials, hence the nickname. FlamingLiberal posted:An aircraft carrier battle group is moving into the Gulf, so air strikes are likely. The carrier itself is the USS George HW Bush. First Papa Bush got to have his war with Iraq, then Son Bush, and now Ship Bush gets to launch bombing runs!  (I agree with New Division though, we're not at airstrikes yet. Worst case I'd saw is we have a week until airstrikes begin.)
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Jun 14, 2014 22:41
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fknlo posted:I'm pretty surprised that "Iraqi Predator Drones" haven't been shooting "Iraqi Hellfire Missiles" at anything yet. Are they all tied up in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Yemen? I feel this is a good time to point out that Iran was the pioneering country in creating combat drones as well as using them in actual combat. They'd probably be the ones sending drones out there for the moment.
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Jun 14, 2014 22:43
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DrProsek posted:(I agree with New Division though, we're not at airstrikes yet. Worst case I'd saw is we have a week until airstrikes begin.) Obama's speech definitely left the impression that any intervention was dependent on Maliki reforming his ways and reaching out to bring Sunnis into his government. I suspect that Maliki would rather get his old death squads up and running again. Anyway, I bet ISIS will have trouble advancing further since they're running into Shia territory now. The conflict will definitely escalate, but I don't forsee the dramatic fall of any more cities, which will result in the pressure to bomb so we "do something" recedes.
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Jun 14, 2014 22:47
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Will the Iraqi army begin fighting now that they know they'll be executed if they surrender or are they going to just find new and exciting ways to desert?
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Jun 14, 2014 22:49
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BattleMaster posted:Will the Iraqi army begin fighting now that they know they'll be executed if they surrender or are they going to just find new and exciting ways to desert? The Shia divisions will fight on their own turf. But the Shia militia are probably going to eclipse the actual army in the next weeks. A lot of them are better armed, trained and motivated than the actual drat army.
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Jun 14, 2014 22:53
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Here's the full set of mass execution pics http://justpaste.it/fusg
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Jun 14, 2014 23:47
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New Division posted:Anyway, I bet ISIS will have trouble advancing further since they're running into Shia territory now. The conflict will definitely escalate, but I don't forsee the dramatic fall of any more cities, which will result in the pressure to bomb so we "do something" recedes. I definitely agree with you that they'll start getting some actual resistance as they keep pushing. However, if you ask r/worldnews(don't do this), Baghdad is on the brink of falling RIGHT loving NOW!! 
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Jun 14, 2014 23:53
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Brown Moses posted:Here's the full set of mass execution pics http://justpaste.it/fusg loving terrible. They supposedly had 3000 prisoners. I know they are claiming 1700 executions today but I'm hoping that's exaggerated. I'm also hoping Iraq/Iran/US air support loving annihilates these savages as soon as possible.
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Jun 15, 2014 00:08
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Denzer posted:loving terrible. Basically, they released the Sunnis prisoners and killed the Shia prisoners according to everything I've heard. Don't count on ISIS being wiped out quickly. They're resilient. They've also got some other Sunnis supporting their drive for the moment. Also, Baghdad will NOT fall, its filled with plenty of pissed of Shia ready to fight. I'd be more worried about Shia death squads deciding that the time has come to cleanse the remaining Sunni presence in Baghdad as much as anything. They're aren't as many western journalists on the ground as there used to be, but I worry that we're going to start hearing about tortured and mutilated corpses of Sunnis being dumped all over the city in the coming days. This is old (2009), but the charts tells the story. http://musingsoniraq.blogspot.com/2009/11/blog-post.html New Division fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 00:11
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Sorry but I couldn't find one when looking through this thread but does anyone have a sort of list of people who are worth following on Twitter to keep up on Iraq / ISIS developments? I remember when things kicked off in Egypt back in 2011 and twitter was an amazing tool for keeping up with the situation there. Also is Twitter taking down all the supposedly official ISIS accounts?
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Jun 15, 2014 00:48
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Denzer posted:I'm also hoping Iraq/Iran/US air support loving annihilates these savages as soon as possible. ISIS fighters in Syria have weathered far worse air and artillery bombardment than the US et al would ever realistically throw at them in a million years, but kudos on cheering on a cycle of violence which got these dudes the institutional support they have in Iraq in the first place on the same basis the US removed Saddam (bad guy doing poo poo I don't like? KILL 'EM DEAD, FIX 'ER GOOD). It's the inclusion of Iran which truly elevates your post to contemporary Art.
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Jun 15, 2014 00:49
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Some bloggers think they've scored a scoop on evidence of the first member of the IRGC to get killed in Iraq http://jihadology.net/2014/06/14/hizballah-cavalcade-irgcs-first-martyr-vs-isis-in-iraq/ I'm not sure how legit those folks are but the info seems plausible.
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Jun 15, 2014 00:55
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So the US is now attempting to: Arm syrian moderates, disarm syrian immoderates, depose Bashar al Assad, shore up or at least moderate Maliki while trying not to make direct eye contact with Sadr and Sistani and the Badr Brigade which made the latest Shiite cattle call to arms in the Iraqi south, I guess pray and smile at the other countries proximal to the region who have to receive or turn away the refugees from this mess, and implicitly support the actions of the government of Israel because of legacy mandates from generational politics giving EVERYONE involved a concrete reason to despise American foreign policy if the last decade or so wasn't enough to get them off the fence, and implicitly support the actions of the House of Saud for reasons that, impressively, manage to be even dumber since their cadre funds extremists like ISIS and al-Qaeda which, by the way, is the moderate Salafi extremist faction now. Unless you are comfortable with the deaths of lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of people as the conflict escalates further and further, there is no military solution here that isn't a military funding the construction of a time machine for the sole purpose of obliterating the last twelve years of history largely brought on by military solutions to problems that, today, seem kinda nice to have been having.
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Jun 15, 2014 01:11
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Willie Tomg posted:So the US is now attempting to: Arm syrian moderates, disarm syrian immoderates, depose Bashar al Assad, shore up or at least moderate Maliki while trying not to make direct eye contact with Sadr and Sistani and the Badr Brigade which made the latest Shiite cattle call to arms in the Iraqi south, I guess pray and smile at the other countries proximal to the region who have to receive or turn away the refugees from this mess, and implicitly support the actions of the government of Israel because of legacy mandates from generational politics giving EVERYONE involved a concrete reason to despise American foreign policy if the last decade or so wasn't enough to get them off the fence, and implicitly support the actions of the House of Saud for reasons that, impressively, manage to be even dumber since their cadre funds extremists like ISIS and al-Qaeda which, by the way, is the moderate Salafi extremist faction now. This is like  .txt for the whole conflict. I can't even anymore.
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Jun 15, 2014 01:24
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Just reading an article about some bullshit Tony Blair said,("we" shouldn't be blaming "us". Infact, "we" should liberate ourselves from the thought) and also that Assad was actually making weapons, and we did nothing, and knew nothing, but that proves that because Saddam knew how to do it, he would have eventually:The Guardian posted:He said it was inevitable that events across Iraq had raised the arguments over the 2003 war. While admitting that no weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq, he said: "What we now know from Syria is that Assad, without any detection from the west, was manufacturing chemical weapons. We only discovered this when he used them. We also know, from the final weapons inspectors' reports, that though it is true that Saddam got rid of the physical weapons, he retained the expertise and capability to manufacture them. and then this: The Guardian posted:Pentagon said that US defence secretary Chuck Hagel had dispatched the aircraft carrier USS George HW Bush and two guided missile ships into the Gulf as a precautionary measure. i am harry fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 01:38
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Willie Tomg posted:So the US is now attempting to: Arm syrian moderates, disarm syrian immoderates, depose Bashar al Assad, shore up or at least moderate Maliki while trying not to make direct eye contact with Sadr and Sistani and the Badr Brigade which made the latest Shiite cattle call to arms in the Iraqi south, I guess pray and smile at the other countries proximal to the region who have to receive or turn away the refugees from this mess, and implicitly support the actions of the government of Israel because of legacy mandates from generational politics giving EVERYONE involved a concrete reason to despise American foreign policy if the last decade or so wasn't enough to get them off the fence, and implicitly support the actions of the House of Saud for reasons that, impressively, manage to be even dumber since their cadre funds extremists like ISIS and al-Qaeda which, by the way, is the moderate Salafi extremist faction now. Please read this is you are looking at this situation and your response is "let's intervene" because it's 100% on point.
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Jun 15, 2014 01:52
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God almighty.
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Jun 15, 2014 01:56
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Willie Tomg posted:ISIS fighters in Syria have weathered far worse air and artillery bombardment than the US et al would ever realistically throw at them in a million years, but kudos on cheering on a cycle of violence which got these dudes the institutional support they have in Iraq in the first place on the same basis the US removed Saddam (bad guy doing poo poo I don't like? KILL 'EM DEAD, FIX 'ER GOOD). It's the inclusion of Iran which truly elevates your post to contemporary Art. Yeah, I'm sorry, you are right. The best solution to ISIS is just do nothing. Or like you said, build a time machine. We cannot judge. It's better really if the west sits this one out, lets its "allies" like Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Kuwait continue to flood money to ISIS and don't intervene to help Shia and Kurds even if they ask for our help. Really our intervention could only do more harm, in fact given enough time ISIS might become peaceful. It's probably better if we wait for that to happen.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:05
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I'm sure once we pave a few more Iraqi cities everything will be hunky-dory.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:10
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Denzer posted:Yeah, I'm sorry, you are right. The best solution to ISIS is just do nothing. Or like you said, build a time machine. We cannot judge. It's better really if the west sits this one out, lets its "allies" like Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Kuwait continue to flood money to ISIS and don't intervene to help Shia and Kurds even if they ask for our help. Really our intervention could only do more harm, in fact given enough time ISIS might become peaceful. It's probably better if we wait for that to happen. It's actually probably better if the conflict is left to sort itself out while other countries attempt to serve as mediators and negotiators, yes. I have no idea where your optimism with regards to a direct military response is coming from, considering that the most recent example of direct military intervention (Libya) led to a dessicated nation torn apart by warlords.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:11
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Brown Moses posted:Here's the full set of mass execution pics It's bad enough they've been able to bumrush through Iraq with little resistance, it's worse that they're bloodthirsty and killing people who have willingly surrendered. I had to add NWS tags because of some of the pictures.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:13
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Vermain posted:It's actually probably better if the conflict is left to sort itself out while other countries attempt to serve as mediators and negotiators, yes. I have no idea where your optimism with regards to a direct military response is coming from, considering that the most recent example of direct military intervention (Libya) led to a dessicated nation torn apart by warlords. Though if we had left it alone it would have been a desiccated nation torn apart by a single warlord.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:13
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Denzer posted:Yeah, I'm sorry, you are right. The best solution to ISIS is just do nothing. Or like you said, build a time machine. We cannot judge. It's better really if the west sits this one out, lets its "allies" like Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Kuwait continue to flood money to ISIS and don't intervene to help Shia and Kurds even if they ask for our help. Really our intervention could only do more harm, in fact given enough time ISIS might become peaceful. It's probably better if we wait for that to happen.  Who said anything about not judging the ISIS? They're brutal sectarian pricks. But they're fighting what is basically a sectarian Shia regime at the moment that shows no sign of reforming right now. If we're not careful then all we'll end up doing is picking sides in a holy war. As for the Kurds, the Iraqi Kurds at the very least seem to have benefited from the situation. They've managed to solidify their hold on regions they've wanted for years, and the ISIS is not pressing down on them.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:13
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Aside from "becoming peaceful" in some ill-defined way it being more likely that ISIS will be asphyxiated of means and support once something resembling a status quo sugars out from a boiling pot of syrupy ethnic and religious hatred and they're forced to govern a municipality instead of fight a forever war with that sweet US subsidized Saudi money, that is essentially 100% accurate, yes. I'm glad we agree.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:13
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Jkid posted:It's bad enough they've been able to bumrush through Iraq with little resistance, it's worse that they're bloodthirsty and killing people who have willingly surrendered. This is amusing to me because America did the same thing in one instance when insurgents attempted to surrender to an apache crew.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:16
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The ISIS will burn themselves out. Once they get bogged down in the Shia areas they're going to start taking heavy casualties. And the other Sunni militants will stab them in the back at some point. It's already happened once to their previous incarnation.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:16
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computer parts posted:Though if we had left it alone it would have been a desiccated nation torn apart by a single warlord. I held no love for Qaddafi, and I'd be totally okay with all of ISIS spontaneously combusting tomorrow, but it is not only possible but incredibly easy to do something with righteous intent that leads to even worse suffering as a consequence. The last 13 years should be proof enough for anyone.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:18
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Vermain posted:I held no love for Qaddafi, and I'd be totally okay with all of ISIS spontaneously combusting tomorrow, but it is not only possible but incredibly easy to do something with righteous intent that leads to even worse suffering as a consequence. The last 13 years should be proof enough for anyone. Iraq (at least) wasn't done with righteous intent except to further oil profits. And Afghanistan certainly wasn't either because they redirected tons of forces to the aforementioned war in Iraq.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:19
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Brown Moses posted:Here's the full set of mass execution pics http://justpaste.it/fusg Is it just plain despair which makes thousands of able bodied men lie down in graves to be shot? Or is this just a more poignant example of inshallah? I'm privileged enough to not have to worry about ethnic death squads, but there's some part of me that is stupefied by the passive march to one's doom.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:19
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Vermain posted:I held no love for Qaddafi, and I'd be totally okay with all of ISIS spontaneously combusting tomorrow, but it is not only possible but incredibly easy to do something with righteous intent that leads to even worse suffering as a consequence. The last 13 years should be proof enough for anyone. The road to hell is paved in etc etc etc. And it's more than 13 years man. But regardless, there's nothing righteous about imperialism.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:22
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computer parts posted:Iraq (at least) wasn't done with righteous intent except to further oil profits. And Afghanistan certainly wasn't either because they redirected tons of forces to the aforementioned war in Iraq. I sincerely doubt that every general, soldier, and supporter participating in the two wars thought they were doing it to further the interests of a small elite. It was marketed as a war to emancipate the Middle East, just as intervention here would be sold (though it's obvious to everyone that a U.S. intervention would solely be a face-saving measure). Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:The road to hell is paved in etc etc etc. Absolutely. I don't mean here to imply that imperialism is righteous, but that there's a liberal pressure to "do something" in accordance with a righteous intent (to protect people from ISIS). Vermain fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 02:22
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Jalumibnkrayal posted:Is it just plain despair which makes thousands of able bodied men lie down in graves to be shot? Or is this just a more poignant example of inshallah? I'm privileged enough to not have to worry about ethnic death squads, but there's some part of me that is stupefied by the passive march to one's doom. Do you think they'd have allowed those men to kill themselves?
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Jun 15, 2014 02:23
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Vermain posted:I sincerely doubt that every general, soldier, and supporter participating in the two wars thought they were doing it to further the interests of a small elite. It was marketed as a war to emancipate the Middle East, just as intervention here would be sold (though it's obvious to everyone that a U.S. intervention would solely be a face-saving measure). Every general, soldier, etc did not actually plan the war and had no say in it. The war in Afghanistan was bungled because the people actually planning the war didn't want the easy way out, they wanted nation building.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:27
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illrepute posted:This is amusing to me because America did the same thing in one instance when insurgents attempted to surrender to an apache crew. This is a dumb comparison because a helicopter can't take prisoners, and a few insurgents getting exploded is a much smaller incident than taking a few thousand prisoners, singling out over a thousand people belonging to another religious sect, and then shooting them all in a ditch. Jalumibnkrayal posted:Is it just plain despair which makes thousands of able bodied men lie down in graves to be shot? Or is this just a more poignant example of inshallah? I'm privileged enough to not have to worry about ethnic death squads, but there's some part of me that is stupefied by the passive march to one's doom. Group psychology, I would think. Rationally, if the entire column was to bumrush their captors, they'd probably win, though it'd be messy. Problem is, no one wants to be the guy who goes after a guard first, because that guy is definitely going to get killed, so you have a whole column that just gets herded to its death because no one makes the first move and then its too late because they're all getting bullets in them. Vernii fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 02:27
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Vermain posted:I held no love for Qaddafi, and I'd be totally okay with all of ISIS spontaneously combusting tomorrow, but it is not only possible but incredibly easy to do something with righteous intent that leads to even worse suffering as a consequence. The last 13 years should be proof enough for anyone. It's also possible to not do something with righteous intent, that leads to even worse suffering. Case in point Srebrenica and Rwanda. But I don't see any of you guys jumping to take that into context. Just standing by "don't intervene ever" regardless of any particulars of any situation. For the record, I don't think supporting the Maliki government right now is a good idea, but I would like to remind everyone that 2 years ago, ISIS was a fraction of what it is now. It grew in the region defended by people who also were facing chemical weapons, starvation, and nonstop bombings and artillery strikes, with very limited aid, and were unable to fend them off. The pros and cons of intervention at the time were a whole lot prettier than the ones we're facing now. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 02:29
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Vernii posted:This is a dumb comparison because a helicopter can't take prisoners, and a few insurgents getting exploded is a much smaller incident than taking a few thousand prisoners, singling out over a thousand people belonging to another religious sect, and then shooting them all in a ditch. Except the point was about ISIS executing surrendering soldiers, something that every army in the world has done.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:30
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computer parts posted:Iraq (at least) wasn't done with righteous intent except to further oil profits. And Afghanistan certainly wasn't either because they redirected tons of forces to the aforementioned war in Iraq. Wrong on both counts.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:31
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