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Hey guys, LF isn't around anymore.
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Jun 29, 2014 07:39
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Swan Oat posted:I mean for real though how is it controversial to argue that the police are, and have been, tools of repression, state violence, and social control since basically forever? It's bad. What the police do are bad. That some cops might be good and decent folks outside of their job doesn't really matter when they literally work for one of the most repressive institutions in our society. It increases order. Think of what came before. Repression? It's progress. Things are terrible, were worse. Police are part of that improvement. Blithely pushing, "They're bad; make the bad thing go away," isn't productive. Pushing for officer-mounted cameras is. Pushing for demilitarization and reversion to community policing is. Tons of poo poo is. You can't beat something with nothing; have policy positions. I don't see hating on cops writ large as useful, but hating on corruption, pushing awareness campaigns and so on is. This isn't just about an individual cop's good deeds versus the institution's misdeeds in a vacuum. This is about the effects of the institution in the context of everything else. And never forget: 
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Jun 29, 2014 07:40
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My position, such as it is, is that law enforcement isn't categorically evil or wrong. Police aren't inherently bad. You seem to be wavering between 1) categorical and unframed or substantiated statements that the police are some sort of elemental evil whose raw satanic powers can only be diluted, never cured, and 2) net negative arguments to the same effect. Until several people pointed out how you were presenting no alternative (you still aren't, by the way), you did this in the form of single sentence posts. Restating that "all police/cops = bad" several different ways doesn't lend any substance or credibility to your position, such as it may be. I can't discern the details of what Swan Oat's position is, but if the full communism post is sincere he does seem to have one. That would be more than you've given us on the subject up to this point. edit: JonathonSpectre is another good example of someone who has a stance I can respect. I'm not sure my experiences map to his, and that rig he's talking about would be expensive, but it's got some assertions and ideas we could talk about. Not so much yours, dude/dudette. vvvv Hooray! I win apparently! What do folks think about the US slowly starting to trudge toward signing the Ottowa Convention? I feel like this is the kind of thing the Republicans would be hitting the administration over, but I haven't seen anything to that effect in the press. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Jun 29, 2014 |
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Jun 29, 2014 07:41
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Discendo Vox posted:Until several people pointed out how you were presenting no alternative (you still aren't, by the way) You're full of poo poo. You're lying.
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Jun 29, 2014 07:44
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Upon reflection, having realized that I lack comprehensive and workable solutions to the world's problems, I conclude that the status quo is acceptable and probably the best of all possible worlds.
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Jun 29, 2014 07:46
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 "Body cameras would be expensive! MRAPs aren't expensive though."e: I just remembered your impassioned defense of drone strikes on civilians, I've been silly to engage. woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Jun 29, 2014 |
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Jun 29, 2014 07:49
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Cops are tools of oppression and serve primarily to protect the wealthy from the poor as well as to enforce private property. While there would undeniably be some problems if we completely eliminated police, they are a net negative and their removal would be a societal good if there was also a push towards increased social programs and a reduction in wealth inequality. That isn't to say that there aren't good cops, there are they are just rare.
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Jun 29, 2014 07:50
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Nonsense. Police are there to serve and protect their communities. Otherwise they'd sue on the grounds that they aren't actually required to help people. ...oh, wait.
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Jun 29, 2014 08:03
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Shbobdb posted:Cops are tools of oppression and serve primarily to protect the wealthy from the poor as well as to enforce private property. I think the present law enforcement system is hella hosed up but even under full Communism you would presumably still need some peace officers of some kind, if probably far fewer than we presently have. So we're kind of getting "cops as presently constituted" vs. "any sort of police officer or similar guy of any kind, ever" mixed together.
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Jun 29, 2014 08:18
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I love theories for governance of society that leave a huge and obvious power vacuum and just wave away the part where someone will obviously step in and exploit the poo poo out of that vacuum in the worst possible way. Meanwhile, back in the real world of Maccacamerica, I hear tell that Rick "Oops" Perry this week walked back his comments about The Gays while simultaneously picking a fight with the teabaggers over their desire to abolish the Ex-Im bank. I haven't even dove into why they want it abolished, but probably it boils down to the name sounding foreign and something Glenn Beck said, I'm sure. Either way, Perry doesn't seem to have a natural constituency with his slightly offbeat set of border/international port state views.
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Jun 29, 2014 08:22
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It's funny to think of things involving Rick Perry as being "the real world."Nessus posted:So we're kind of getting "cops as presently constituted" vs. "any sort of police officer or similar guy of any kind, ever" mixed together. Well, this is the US Politics thread. Policing in the United States is especially bad and worthless compared to other developed nations. It needs to be drastically reformed, and there are workable reforms on the table. I don't think too many of us are all that concerned about the administration of Anarcho-Syndicalist Containment and Rehabilitation Force, we can worry about that when capitalism begins to look as though it's going somewhere.
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Jun 29, 2014 08:25
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SedanChair posted:Policing in the United States is especially bad and worthless compared to other developed nations. It needs to be drastically reformed, and there are workable reforms on the table. This sounds like a great idea for a new thread!
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Jun 29, 2014 08:35
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SedanChair posted:It's funny to think of things involving Rick Perry as being "the real world."
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Jun 29, 2014 08:40
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ReindeerF posted:I love theories for governance of society that leave a huge and obvious power vacuum and just wave away the part where someone will obviously step in and exploit the poo poo out of that vacuum in the worst possible way. I think Perry's in the position of also-ran again, thank goodness. As you say, he doesn't lean far enough into any one form of popular conservatism to fit well with the major republican demographic groups, and at this point he has a nice long list of things for the Democrats to hit him with.
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Jun 29, 2014 08:41
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SedanChair posted:Talking about the administration of justice, wotta fuckin' derail from politics! I like the objective list, but how would we make sure that cops end up being better peace officers rather than community endorsed enforcers in those ideas. Always-on body cameras would do wonders for cases given the oversight to make it work. We'd probably also have to ameliorate incentives and culture that allowed the abuse to begin with.
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Jun 29, 2014 08:44
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Just because polices were started to maintain the status quo, doesn't mean after centuries, their goals can't change. If you can look past their history, up their resources/power so they can resist and rebuff the powerful, they then become a champion of the people. You expect them to remain relevant and useful, but don't support them? How can cops compete with news corp, when all they ever been designed to do is "maintain status quo?" The tool is not at fault here; we neglected it. Smart rich people know the importance of the police, neutered the police first, which lets them rape and pillage at will. Femur fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Jun 29, 2014 |
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Jun 29, 2014 09:45
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Femur posted:Just because polices were started to maintain the status quo, doesn't mean after centuries, their goals can't change. Please elaborate on what you mean by neglect.
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Jun 29, 2014 09:46
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Expecting Einstein paying minimum living wages.. So neglect like a parent to a child, and puzzlement at the result Femur fucked around with this message at 10:04 on Jun 29, 2014 |
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Jun 29, 2014 09:50
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mispost
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Jun 29, 2014 10:03
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Femur posted:Expecting Einstein paying minimum living wages.. No idea what you are talking about, salaries for law enforcement officers vary wildly but very few beyond tiny towns are at minimum wage levels. For example, in metropolitan areas (like NYC) depending on years served and shift they can make six figures. Due to police unions they also have some pretty excellent job security as well.
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Jun 29, 2014 10:04
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I said living wage, because it varies by location as you said. It is definitely low skilled blue collar work. That was fine vs punks, but crime has changed,but police are still low skilled vv I don't get it. Femur fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Jul 2, 2014 |
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Jun 29, 2014 10:09
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Femur posted:I said living wage, because it varies by location as you said. It is definitely low skilled blue collar work. Yeah, the level of criminal sophistication being organized by Brandon "Big Boss" Babel does put those old time punks to shame. What we need is something that can fight crime... in a future time. Maybe we could call it the Central Organization of Police Specialists?
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Jun 29, 2014 10:22
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A 'How to Fix American Police' thread would be a great. For policy, in broad strokes, I like:
Accretionist fucked around with this message at 11:19 on Jun 29, 2014 |
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Jun 29, 2014 10:35
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AstheWorldWorlds posted:No idea what you are talking about, salaries for law enforcement officers vary wildly but very few beyond tiny towns are at minimum wage levels. For example, in metropolitan areas (like NYC) depending on years served and shift they can make six figures. Due to police unions they also have some pretty excellent job security as well. Starting salaries were decreased to 25,000 dollars a year (and requirements increased to include additional education requirements) in NYC a few years back. Now it's been increased to 34,800 dollars, but figure in NYC cost of living and you might as well get a different job. My next-door neighbor is a lieutenant, now working a desk because he was a 9/11 first responder and got bad Asthma. He's said in passing it's causing a massive brain-drain where the new guys are clawing for any chance to work less or make coin on the side. SedanChair posted:Because you need poo poo spoon-fed to you, I will give you a series of meaningful policy proposals. Ready? See, I can see some of those. Other parts might be a bit difficult to implement in higher-crime areas though. Cops working where they live could invite crime against his family, bullying in school, etc, or force him to make life choices he wouldn't make otherwise. Similarly, community oversight boards could become corrupt of their own right, with controlling interests forcing cops to not enforce certain inconvenient crimes (say suppressing certain statistics to boost home sales, or decrease civil violations for influential businesses). Personally, in a 2nd-Amendment country like the US without meaningful gun control, there is some need for SWAT teams and high-power weapons for elite units. Unions are there for a loving reason though, especially when politics can meddle in the salary and benefits of people working thankless jobs with higher than normal risks. Union reform to focus on high salaries starting off rather than arcane work rules and retirement accounting based on the last 3 years pay is more important than getting rid of unions. The cameras are a great idea, as is rotating postings, reorganizing management of police organizations, have dedicated oversight boards that are not immediately local and are elected to their positions with a dedicated staff, and increase funding for police infrastructure rather than firepower. When you guys say the police serve the interests of the rich, we could easy say "the Pinkertons" or "the military" like it was 120 years ago. There is no reason to suggest that police are inherently bad when other countries, as noted, seem to be able to work with them.
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Jun 29, 2014 13:02
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SedanChair posted:Jesus christ you're talking about campus police? Way to matter. Ok so SedanChair is back to Amergin levels of 14-year old posting, hopefully this outburst doesn't last long.
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Jun 29, 2014 13:07
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ReindeerF posted:Meanwhile, back in the real world of Maccacamerica, I hear tell that Rick "Oops" Perry this week walked back his comments about The Gays while simultaneously picking a fight with the teabaggers over their desire to abolish the Ex-Im bank. I haven't even dove into why they want it abolished, but probably it boils down to the name sounding foreign and something Glenn Beck said, I'm sure. Either way, Perry doesn't seem to have a natural constituency with his slightly offbeat set of border/international port state views. The Tea Party is riled up about the Export-Import bank because it uses MY TAX DOLLARS to give loans to FOREIGNERS! Never mind that the loans are provided only to interests buying products from US companies and that, since it's a bank it actually generates positive revenue for the government. No, no, this is clearly the big hand of the government interfering in the free market with crony capitalism. The scary thing is that this time that have the House Majority Leader on their side.
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Jun 29, 2014 13:13
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Shbobdb posted:Cops are tools of oppression and serve primarily to protect the wealthy from the poor as well as to enforce private property. So, to sum up this derail: We should get rid of cops and replace them with better social programs These programs will be paid for out of taxes which are collected by government Tax collections can only be enforced by cops, which no longer exist 90% of the people on this forum, at least, support higher taxes, more regulations, and in the general sense, a more involved and intrusive federal government. Growth in government requires growth in enforcement power, which at the moment is entirely various flavors of cop.
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Jun 29, 2014 13:30
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SedanChair's argumentative style continues to remind me of every Libertarian ever. Just absolutely deliberately vague such that you can't pin it down, while somehow also completely condescending.Joementum posted:The Tea Party is riled up about the Export-Import bank because it uses MY TAX DOLLARS to give loans to FOREIGNERS! I thought we had basically written off the ExIm Bank last week as dead? I kind of assumed it was at least partially the reason that Fox News had been hitting some Tea Party folks of late since the Chamber of Commerce had come out hard against this. Boon fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Jun 29, 2014 |
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Jun 29, 2014 13:52
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gently caress, DP.
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Jun 29, 2014 13:54
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Boon posted:I thought we had basically written off the ExIm Bank last week as dead? I kind of assumed it was at least partially the reason that Fox News had been hitting some Tea Party folks of late since the Chamber of Commerce had come out hard against this. I don't think they have the votes in the House to kill it and I doubt they'd have a majority in the Senate even if they took that over in November. The ExIm bank is exactly Thad Cochran's idea of good government and he's not alone in that chamber.
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Jun 29, 2014 13:58
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On behalf of the developing world, and as someone who lives next to an Ex-Im Bank branch and whose extended family relies on the guarantees and things they provide, can I ask you to all murder anyone in a Rascal scooter tomorrow? Happy America.
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Jun 29, 2014 14:02
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Femur posted:I said living wage, because it varies by location as you said. It is definitely low skilled blue collar work. I do not think you actually know what that term means.
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Jun 29, 2014 14:11
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The Senate Conservatives Fund, the group that works with Ted Cruz and Mike Lee to elect Tea Party Senators, wants to defund the NRSC. As a reminder, the NRSC's Vice Chairman for Grassroots Outreach is.... Ted Cruz. 
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Jun 29, 2014 14:47
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How about we go a step above the cops and fix a lot of the bullshit laws they've been tasked with enforcing? Or target their superiors who encourage abusive behavior because of things like the prison-industrial complex, or the fact that they basically have the squeeze the poors for revenue because the rich are still basically untouchable in our society and will do everything in their power to not have to pay a dime for social services. Police are still essentially good as fire fighters. They perform a public service, they enforce public policy, they maintain peace. That is "in essence". Not in reality. In reality they're a contorted tool of the bourgeoisie, and attacking the tool does nothing to stop the person wielding it. Hating on cops is about as effective as the typical mindset of conservatives hating on poors.
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Jun 29, 2014 14:59
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:I wonder if Nixon actually liked anything. quote:In the 70s you had a meeting with Richard Nixon and you talked about college football. What would you say if you had the same face time with G.W. Bush? quote:A recently unearthed recording from the National Archives reveals that President Richard Nixon was furious at NFL Commissioner Pete Rozelle over the NFL’s blackout policy, which in the early 1970s did not allow for any game to be televised in the city where it was played, regardless of whether the game was sold out or not. Nixon loved him some football.
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Jun 29, 2014 15:09
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eggyolk posted:How about we go a step above the cops and fix a lot of the bullshit laws they've been tasked with enforcing? Or target their superiors who encourage abusive behavior because of things like the prison-industrial complex, or the fact that they basically have the squeeze the poors for revenue because the rich are still basically untouchable in our society and will do everything in their power to not have to pay a dime for social services. I remember when a poor shot my dog in its kennel. I'm gonna make some coffee and start a new thread.
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Jun 29, 2014 15:17
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StarMagician posted:Tax collections can only be enforced by cops, which no longer exist This isn't true actually. Tax collection (at least on the federal level) is handled pretty much solely by the IRS, which has Special Agents (meaning a gun and arrest powers). Edit: Unless you mean to include any federal agency empowered to arrest people. Usually when people say cops they mean police officers.
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Jun 29, 2014 15:27
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paragon1 posted:This isn't true actually. Tax collection (at least on the federal level) is handled pretty much solely by the IRS, which has Special Agents (meaning a gun and arrest powers). Yeah, if anyone tells you that the sheriff is going to arrest you for unpaid taxes, they're trying to scam you. Local law enforcement doesn't do anything w/r/t to federal tax collection. They may get involved for state tax issues, I guess, but I haven't heard of anything like that before.
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Jun 29, 2014 15:38
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effectual posted:Holy And golf outings 
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Jun 29, 2014 15:52
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SedanChair posted:4) gently caress it, let's go ahead and do it. Replace every cop with a social worker. Sure, let's replace cops with people even less effective.
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Jun 29, 2014 16:01
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