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Renegret posted:I just started reading this series last week and I was going to post this: Come back and post your thoughts as you work your way through the series. This thread loves newbie reactions and speculations.
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Jun 29, 2014 21:39
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:
He's up there with Adam and Jamie off of Mythbusters.
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Jun 29, 2014 21:56
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I do think Butcher way overdoes it with the goony pseudo-chivalric stuff. It made some sense at the start of the series; Dresden was a twenty-something manchild who had a really hosed up childhood and who had never had a romantic relationship end well. Now, though, he's in his forties. He's had a whole lot of responsibility thrown at him over time and he's had to mature a lot. So the m'lady stuff just feels out of place. He's had to be a teacher, a father, and a leader; it really feels like he should have just grown the hell up about all of his weird womanfolk attitudes at some point.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:47
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Tulul posted:I do think Butcher way overdoes it with the goony pseudo-chivalric stuff. It made some sense at the start of the series; Dresden was a twenty-something manchild who had a really hosed up childhood and who had never had a romantic relationship end well. Now, though, he's in his forties. He's had a whole lot of responsibility thrown at him over time and he's had to mature a lot. So the m'lady stuff just feels out of place. He's had to be a teacher, a father, and a leader; it really feels like he should have just grown the hell up about all of his weird womanfolk attitudes at some point. Dresden never really had a chance to grow up. He might be in his 40s but it's the kind of 40s where he's still in a lot of ways a manchild and not prepared for responsibility. He's gradually accepting it though even if a lot of it is unintentional. (A bulk of the big responsibilities he has now he took on by accident, avoided as long as he could, or intended to weasel out of ASAP.) They made a point in Skin Game that he isn't doing the "he hurt a WOMAN?!" thing anymore at least. It'll be kind of weird if we get to the last books and Dresden has actually goddamn matured into a functional adult. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 02:02
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Weird? I'd consider that perfectly fine as a character arc. He hits adulthood just in time to die horribly!  Please dont do this Jim. 
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Jun 30, 2014 02:18
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Thyrork posted:Weird? I'd consider that perfectly fine as a character arc. I don't mean a bad character arc, I just mean it'll be weird to see the day Harry is able to restrain himself from talking poo poo to someone and making everything worse without the threat of instant painful death on the line.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:20
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Harry's matured a lot, but I consider it something of a shame that he's regressed so much emotionally since the end of Ghost Story. I know, Winter Mantle, base urges, blah blah blah... Still, I wish the winter crap was spread out across all base urges, not just I SEE WOMAN AND I MUST gently caress.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:21
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ConfusedUs posted:Harry's matured a lot, but I consider it something of a shame that he's regressed so much emotionally since the end of Ghost Story. Well, to be fair, in Skin Game he gets tremendously territorial any time Binder is brought up.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:23
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I wonder if the Mantle carries any residues of its last bearer? Like Lloyd Slate was a sleazoid and that rubs off on Harry some? It would tie in a lttle with the Ladies' mantles and Lily turning into Aurora 2.0. Although it bodes ill for Molly.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:26
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wheatpuppy posted:I wonder if the Mantle carries any residues of its last bearer? Like Lloyd Slate was a sleazoid and that rubs off on Harry some? It would tie in a lttle with the Ladies' mantles and Lily turning into Aurora 2.0. Although it bodes ill for Molly. Personally im of the inclination that the mantle simply influences you in subtle and fitting ways. Winter makes you logical, Summer makes you passionate. Winter makes you value your own, summer makes you consider everyone. Winter is concerned about the big picture of survival, Summer is concerned about the big picture of "fairness." Alittle bit of both would make you a well rounded person, but Winter and Summer have their appointed roles so such things could not be. On the other hand, with this idea in mind, our new summer lady might be a very interesting summer lady, considering her tutor and upbringing amongst the fae. Anyway, to my point. I think Dresden blames the mantle, but the source of it is him and hes becoming more aware of that. I suspect we shall see him come to terms with what the mantle is doing, exaggerating base urges, and if he wants to control it properly, he needs to accept the feelings are his, not the mantle, and that they do not rule him. I mean, come on, Dresden would have us think Winter is nothing but a court of hungry lone wolves who care nothing for each other and relish in their base hungers. That is not the case. They are pitiless, they are demanding and they are cruelly calculating but they are not above working together for the good of the pack.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:41
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Thyrork posted:Winter makes you logical, This is literally the opposite of how Winter works. Harry specifically battles it with logic.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:44
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I disagree. Mab seems to be a logical, calculating leader. Lea also shows similar traits, but hers are tempered in cruelty. In Harry, it makes him focused on his needs, logical ones, food, mates, territory, shelter. Its a very base, very ugly thing, and that is the weakness of Winter. It lacks Compassion, it is ugly, brutal and animalistic. Its also 02:50 and im possibly incoherent from lack of sleep.  E: Flip this on its head, Titania has enormous issues handling her emotions, and it takes eldest gruff calmly explaining it to her in a reasonable fashion to give her perspective. Mab kept herself reasonable by seeking out perspective, even if she didn't entirely understand it, Harry using Logic and numbers to calm the mantle down strikes me as being on the same page. This is the glaring flaw in Summer and Winter Fae, they cannot see the full picture. Literally. Thankfully Jim seems to have cleverly avoided turning this into another god-damned story about stoic logic vs uncontrolled emotion, to which i am very grateful. If i have to listen to another Jedi/Vulcan-loving nerd tell me that "emotions are dangerous" and you should learn to "feel nothing", i will beat them over the head with the first book i find on the dangers of emotional repression. 
Thyrork fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 02:50
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ConfusedUs posted:Harry's matured a lot, but I consider it something of a shame that he's regressed so much emotionally since the end of Ghost Story. It would help if he actually, you know, hosed a woman once in a while. I mean, it's a cliche but drat that dude needs to get laid.
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Jun 30, 2014 04:50
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Thyrork posted:I disagree. Except that is what it is. This is stated unarguably in the book. Harry is not making logical decisions he is making primal ones. He tempers them by being logical. Like, literally, in Skin Game, he argues down the Winter Mantel by explaining to it logical reasons why he can't act on the instinctive emotional urge to kill things. The urges Harry feels are not logical in the slightest. They are irrational animal desires and that is stated to be a big part of what Winter is. This also comes with the cold clarity to do something absolutely abhorrent or cruel but that isn't the same as being logical. Mab is insanely emotional. She literally had to have someone else talk for her because she got so angry she basically was out of control. She is good at keeping it under wraps but "not emotional" is the opposite of what she is. Skin Game was literally a long drawn out and dangerous gambit to get revenge on someone who slighted her. Mab is cold but she isn't unemotional. She is incredibly emotional and that is why she is terrifying. She is more like a barely-retrained force and there are a lot of times we've seen her slip and pretty much every time they do she is borderline animal. I am Zim posted:It would help if he actually, you know, hosed a woman once in a while. I mean, it's a cliche but drat that dude needs to get laid. To be fair, literally every time Harry has sex, something disastrous comes from it or it turns out to be a plot or scheme or betrayal. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 04:54
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ImpAtom posted:Except that is what it is. This is stated unarguably in the book. Harry is not making logical decisions he is making primal ones. He tempers them by being logical. Like, literally, in Skin Game, he argues down the Winter Mantel by explaining to it logical reasons why he can't act on the instinctive emotional urge to kill things. The urges Harry feels are not logical in the slightest. They are irrational animal desires and that is stated to be a big part of what Winter is. This also comes with the cold clarity to do something absolutely abhorrent or cruel but that isn't the same as being logical. It is also explicitly stated in Cold Days at the Gates scene that Winter is the cold brutal uncaring logic and Summer is the warm gentle caring emotions. It sets up the thematic contrast of gibbering madness held at bay by logic, and logic is tempered by compassion. quote:To be fair, literally every time Harry has sex, something disastrous comes from it or it turns out to be a plot or scheme or betrayal. 
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Jun 30, 2014 05:32
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Fried Chicken posted:It is also explicitly stated in Cold Days at the Gates scene that Winter is the cold brutal uncaring logic and Summer is the warm gentle caring emotions. Cold Day posted:Winter's nature was beautiful violence, stark clarity, the most feral needs, and animal desires and killer instinct pitted against the season of cold and death—the will and desire to fight, to live, even when there was no shelter, no warmth, no respite, no hope, and no help. Stark Clarity is about the only thing I can see there being close to "brutal uncaring logic" and it's shoehorned between beautiful violence and "the most feral needs." Logic is the counterpart to Winter, not the natural state of Winter, and what helps temper it. It isn't the natural state of Winter, which is pure animal instinct and desire unrestrained by morality or compassion. Mab would be much less scary if she were just a super-logical being ice cold being. The fact that she's emotional-as-gently caress means she'll do things that are illogical in order to satisfy her desires or slights against her. She is effective because she can usually control herself enough to do things illogical things in a beneficial and effective way but it's not portrayed very differently from how Harry's own Winter Mantel is. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 06:13
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The winter fae end up logical and ordered precisely because they are trying to maintain their identity in spite of the burden Winter places on them. One is a result of the other. So they are both primal and logical, because if they did not cling to logic like the vulcan/jedi, they'd be lost to whims of their base desires yada yada. Reciting multiplication tables to tell their mantles to shut up and sit down works, so all of the winter fae can recite multiplication tables. Intuitively this and the duality of the fae must mean that Summer is somehow the slow -erosion- of compassion, and the summer fae run around trying desperately to 'care' because the burden of Summer wears away at them in the same fashion. What we see and label as summer characteristics might just be what they've found works on their mantles. Hallmark greetings and false cheer, we're all going to die anyways. This neatly explains why aurora and lily were taken in by nemesis-lady, as it gives a lever to move the summer fae against their own interests. Explaining the futility of it all, etc. Essentially Summer are the Utwig. 
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Jun 30, 2014 07:22
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Anias posted:Intuitively this and the duality of the fae must mean that Summer is somehow the slow -erosion- of compassion, and the summer fae run around trying desperately to 'care' because the burden of Summer wears away at them in the same fashion. What we see and label as summer characteristics might just be what they've found works on their mantles. Hallmark greetings and false cheer, we're all going to die anyways. This neatly explains why aurora and lily were taken in by nemesis-lady, as it gives a lever to move the summer fae against their own interests. Explaining the futility of it all, etc. I think it's more likely that Summer is the time of bounty and carelessness, so the natural instincts are to give no fucks and make merry, now is great.
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Jun 30, 2014 12:01
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In Cold Days Maeve says that the Winter in Harry is Mab. I thought that the Winter Knight Mantle is the Winter Queens' primal urges wrapped up in a bundle and hung around mortal's neck made some degree of sense. Granted this theory basically build upon the word of someone with the ability to lie trying to manipulate Harry.
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Jun 30, 2014 12:01
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Post-sleep and catching up, ImpAtom, you make a good case. I take away from it that Winter is ruthless, Summer is encompassing and both need to be tempered in reason. Fun topic to discuss none the less. 
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Jun 30, 2014 12:10
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:
Nice dog 10/10 would pet. ImpAtom posted:To be fair, literally every time Harry has sex, something disastrous comes from it or it turns out to be a plot or scheme or betrayal. Seems to me like every time Harry breathes, something disastrous comes from it. Poor guy can't catch a break.
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Jun 30, 2014 13:04
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Renegret posted:Seems to me like every time Harry breathes, something disastrous comes from it. Poor guy can't catch a break. Nothing good came of trying to stop breathing, either.
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Jun 30, 2014 13:33
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Poopy Palpy posted:Nothing good came of trying to stop breathing, either. Yeah, he tried that once, and then look what happened to Chicago.
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Jun 30, 2014 15:26
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Fried Chicken posted:Maggie isn't that bad Yet
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Jun 30, 2014 16:23
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Dravs posted:Just finished the Codex Alera series after running out of other books. I enjoyed it quite a lot actually, was pretty satisfying. What are peoples issues with it? A bit late, but a few things come to mind. -Tavi never really suffering any kind of permanent loss or long-term defeat. -Isana being a horrible person and pretty much never being called out for it. -The Marat being painted as noble savages and Alerans as horrible slave-taking liars despite the former being literal cannibals. -The romances, nearly all of which are terrible. -The Vord long outstaying their welcome as villains. Ditto Invidia, who shouldn't have survived her first 'death'. -On a related note Kalarus Brencis being a shallower villain than Skeletor. -The idea of Furies as distinct Pokemon-like entities pretty much vanishing after the first book. -The literal women's rights organisation was also pretty jarring. Some of these are pretty subjective. But overall whilst I did enjoy the Codex Alera novels they are worse than the Dresden Files in a lot of ways.
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Jun 30, 2014 16:23
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Tulul posted:I do think Butcher way overdoes it with the goony pseudo-chivalric stuff. It made some sense at the start of the series; Dresden was a twenty-something manchild who had a really hosed up childhood and who had never had a romantic relationship end well. Now, though, he's in his forties. He's had a whole lot of responsibility thrown at him over time and he's had to mature a lot. So the m'lady stuff just feels out of place. He's had to be a teacher, a father, and a leader; it really feels like he should have just grown the hell up about all of his weird womanfolk attitudes at some point. He has grown up though.
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Jun 30, 2014 18:29
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Fried Chicken posted:Maggie isn't that bad Maggie herself isn't that bad but pretty much everything in Changes and afterwards is a side effect of her existing, so still not very good for Harry.
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Jun 30, 2014 18:36
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I'm on like chapter 18 of Storm Front. I hope it gets better, because Dresden is like a wannabe Philip Marlowe in this book. But it got me thinking of something. How come Dresden hasn't figured out that a staff is a bad idea because it's really, really cumbersome and it sticks out? I mean, why not enchant a collapsible baton as a wand? It's easy to wield, portable enough to hide, and you can easily bash someone in the face if you run out of power 
Benny the Snake fucked around with this message at 07:00 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 06:58
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IIRC it's mentioned in one of the books that a wand is more used for accuracy in targeting/controlling spells whereas a staff is a more generalized tool.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:13
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I do have to say that scene where he turns into a conductor in a lighting storm was badass.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:28
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Also Harry is in the phone book. Under W. For Wizard. Hiding isn't exactly his thing and a staff is a nice obvious way to declare "wizard coming through!"
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Jul 1, 2014 07:29
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Or "giant nerd coming through, don't make eye contact," which is arguably even better. e: A better result for him, I mean. It's an advantage for him. Because now no one will accidentally soulgaze him.
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Jul 1, 2014 09:13
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Benny the Snake posted:I'm on like chapter 18 of Storm Front. I hope it gets better, because Dresden is like a wannabe Philip Marlowe in this book.
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Jul 1, 2014 09:29
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Raygereio posted:It does get better, but not until the third book. You may want to just skip Fool Moon. I just finished Fool moon last night. It's still pretty good if you read it for the violence and not for people making good decisions that make sense. Ragnar34 posted:Or "giant nerd coming through, don't make eye contact," which is arguably even better. I liked how the first book started with the mail man mocking him and calling him a nerd.
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Jul 1, 2014 11:32
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Scintilla posted:A bit late, but a few things come to mind. Thanks for this. Yes, I pretty much agree with all of it, although it was still enjoyable. One of the things that really bugged me was after Tavi got his furies he had great trouble manifesting any, and grandpa Sextus was like "huh, that's weird". And then nothing was ever mentioned about it ever again. He still never manifested any furies by the end of the book, and as you said, the ability to do this at all seems to have just been conveniently forgotten about after the first book. Still, it has a happy ending and I love happy endings.
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Jul 1, 2014 11:39
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Dravs posted:Thanks for this. Yes, I pretty much agree with all of it, although it was still enjoyable. You're forgetting Alera itself, the ultimate fury manifestation. Also, Garados and whatever the other one's name was (though those were accidental/uncontrolled).
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Jul 1, 2014 12:05
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Ragnar34 posted:Or "giant nerd coming through, don't make eye contact," which is arguably even better. I'm not sure Harry is capable of soul gaze anymore. A friend noticed he met peoples' eyes fairly often during Skin Game and not a single soul gaze the whole time.
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Jul 1, 2014 12:26
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Scintilla posted:A bit late, but a few things come to mind. One thing that in retrospect disappoints me about the series is how few relatively "powerhouse" female crafters there are, when everything about the worldbuilding suggests that they should be present at a 50/50 proportion with the men. By this I mean the more "down to earth" elements, Earth, Metal, Wood, and Fire, as opposed to the more archetypically feminine speed/lightness/agility of Air or the healing and empathy of Water (Missed opportunity to have Isana bloodbend, er, craft a stroke into a cohort of Immortals? Probably.). The only female characters who apply are Lady Aria Placida (who is awesome), and Phrygiar Navaris and Lady Invidia (murderous sociopath with daddy issues and evil backstabber respectively). The thing is, the world as it's presented should have more, since if the Furies don't discriminate women should be just as likely to become a military-grade powerhouse as a man, plus the whole enfranchisement thing. And not to mention that an isolated force of 10,000 or so (one Legion, plus their auxiliaries and camp followers) dropped in the middle of a host of enemies would need every Knight-tier body it has to hold the line, male or female. And hey, fantasy literature could use more Lin Bei Fong type metal, er, crafters around.
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Jul 1, 2014 13:49
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Latest laundry book is out, I blew through it already. Pretty good, I'd say a step up from Apocalypse Codex, much tighter. Jesus Christ that's a huge body count of characters
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Jul 1, 2014 15:05
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Benny the Snake posted:I'm on like chapter 18 of Storm Front. I hope it gets better, because Dresden is like a wannabe Philip Marlowe in this book. But it got me thinking of something. How come Dresden hasn't figured out that a staff is a bad idea because it's really, really cumbersome and it sticks out? I mean, why not enchant a collapsible baton as a wand? It's easy to wield, portable enough to hide, and you can easily bash someone in the face if you run out of power In the TV show he used a drumstick for a wand and it was... kind of the dumbest looking thing ever? You just can't look like anything but a massive tool while waving a wand around. I kind of liked the hockey stick staff, though. I believe at some point he mentions that Elaine's foci seem a lot more practical than his.
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Jul 1, 2014 15:05
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