California Politics: Madame Senator, this is a morgue

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > California Politics: Madame Senator, this is a morgue

«‹›957 »

withak: Jan 15, 2003; Fun Shoe

In my line of work we have to provide copies of up-to-date PE licenses when we say something like "150 engineers on staff".

# ? Jul 16, 2014 21:43

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 10, 2024 20:25

Family Values: Jun 26, 2007

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

Sure, so long as we can also stop referring to software developers as engineers.

This thread just keeps getting better and better.

# ? Jul 16, 2014 21:57

Leperflesh: May 17, 2007

It's a semantic argument and I bet 99% of programmers do not give a poo poo whether their title has the word "engineer" or not. In my own experience the majority are titled "developer" or "programmer" and that's fine.

Within my own employer's org, programmers are categorized as "Applications Developers" or "Software Developers" by the HR system, but the job titles themselves can be anything a manager allows, so there are a few people who are Application Developer 2s but are titled Application Engineer or something similar. It appears to be a matter of preference and there is no official policy that I can find.

I do not expect anyone they meet or talk to is somehow confused that as an Application Engineer, a given employee is probably a qualified and certified engineer. But I also can understand real engineers not wanting their special title eroded by association to non-accredited people.

# ? Jul 16, 2014 21:58

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Leperflesh posted:

It's a semantic argument and I bet 99% of programmers do not give a poo poo whether their title has the word "engineer" or not. In my own experience the majority are titled "developer" or "programmer" and that's fine.

Within my own employer's org, programmers are categorized as "Applications Developers" or "Software Developers" by the HR system, but the job titles themselves can be anything a manager allows, so there are a few people who are Application Developer 2s but are titled Application Engineer or something similar. It appears to be a matter of preference and there is no official policy that I can find.

I do not expect anyone they meet or talk to is somehow confused that as an Application Engineer, a given employee is probably a qualified and certified engineer. But I also can understand real engineers not wanting their special title eroded by association to non-accredited people.

In California its a license not an accreditation as it is issued by the State not a private group. You even get a stamp.

However, there isn't a software PE in California only a "Control Systems" PE so there isn't exactly a clear route for software developers to become a PE.

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:03

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

Just like all those jealous physicians whining about holistic doctors appropriating the term. Just roll with it doctors, naturopathy is the new hype!

if you think these are equivalent problems. Oh no, we thought that startup with that corgi social network I signed up for used licensed professional engineers to write its software, but they were just programmers all along!

I mean, I don't disagree that software engineering is nothing much like 'real' engineering*, the dispute over the name just seems silly to me.

* with possible exceptions for medical/military/transportation software

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:10

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

Family Values posted:

This thread just keeps getting better and better.

Why? It's true?

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:11

Leperflesh: May 17, 2007

Cicero posted:

if you think these are equivalent problems. Oh no, we thought that startup with that corgi social network I signed up for used licensed professional engineers to write its software, but they were just programmers all along!

I mean, I don't disagree that software engineering is nothing much like 'real' engineering*, the dispute over the name just seems silly to me.

* with possible exceptions for medical/military/transportation software

No it's more like "Oh you're an electrical engineer? My nephew is a software engineer, you guys must have so much in common! He got his bachelor's degree from Redwood Community College, where did you go to school?" *electrical engineer is incensed*

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:13

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

Leperflesh posted:

No it's more like "Oh you're an electrical engineer? My nephew is a software engineer, you guys must have so much in common! He got his bachelor's degree from Redwood Community College, where did you go to school?" *electrical engineer is incensed*

Yes, basically this. Although IIRC not all 'real' engineers who use the title engineer are professionally licensed either. My dad is a electrical engineer who designs integrated circuits, and I've never heard him mention getting licensed or passing an exam.

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:19

Family Values: Jun 26, 2007

Nonsense posted:

Why? It's true?

It's a tedious debate that's been hashed out numerous times before. No one cares. And it's off topic. I'd rather have food chat, at least it would be about California.

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:21

Jerry Manderbilt: May 31, 2012; No matter how much paperwork I process, it never goes away. It only increases.

On another note, would it be off the mark to say that a lot of people in the not-gonna-be-state of Jefferson who want to secede have been inundated with rhetoric saying that the Bay Area and L.A. mooch off of their Real American� tax dollars?

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:22

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Jerry Manderbilt posted:

On another note, would it be off the mark to say that a lot of people in the not-gonna-be-state of Jefferson who want to secede have been inundated with rhetoric saying that the Bay Area and L.A. mooch off of their Real American� tax dollars?

I'm going to be real pissed when I can't get to camping spots in the Sierra because the roads fall apart.

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:23

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

Family Values posted:

It's a tedious debate that's been hashed out numerous times before. No one cares. And it's off topic. I'd rather have food chat, at least it would be about California.

You don't care buckaroo everybody not an insufferable software developer does.

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:24

Jerry Manderbilt: May 31, 2012; No matter how much paperwork I process, it never goes away. It only increases.

Trabisnikof posted:

I'm going to be real pissed when I can't get to camping spots in the Sierra because the roads fall apart.

Well, if I-5 goes to poo poo because the federal government can't send enough tax dollars from Silicon Valley and New York and poo poo their way, we can always take 101 down south to LA and hope that they manage to keep their freeways in good enough condition...

Still, it'd be interesting to see just how much ag subsidies not-Central California gets every year.

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:25

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

Leperflesh posted:

No it's more like "Oh you're an electrical engineer? My nephew is a software engineer, you guys must have so much in common! He got his bachelor's degree from Redwood Community College, where did you go to school?" *electrical engineer is incensed*

Bingo. "Oh, NASA aerospace engineer! Just like my nephew - he's an engineer at Facebook."

And yes, it is broadly similar to the practice of medicine and how it's regulated: prospective engineers must acquire an accredited engineering degree, pass the Fundamentals of Engineering exam to get a license to practice as an intern, complete a multi-year internship under fully licensed professional engineers (typically 4 years - California is 6), then finally pass the Professional Engineering exam (pass rate ~50% just like the Bar) in order to use the title.

And in order to maintain the title you must complete Continuing Education requirements; this is typically 20 hours/year and also requires that you remain "of good character" meaning no felony convictions or things like DUIs or else your state board takes your license. Medical licenses are regulated in exactly the same way.

All of this is because the practice of engineering fundamentally impacts public safety - when engineers screw up, people die and engineers go to jail. It's a very big deal and while the younger engineers might laugh at these programmers calling themselves astronaut firemen or whatever, the older engineers who've actually been in court to defend their work tend to lose their goddamn mind about title misuse.

Even the AIA is starting to take notice with the misuse of the title "architect" for the exact same reasons. Sure, it's a pride thing, but it's also a major public safety issue, particularly in California.

H.P. Hovercraft fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Jul 16, 2014

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:26

Leperflesh: May 17, 2007

Nonsense posted:

You don't care buckaroo everybody not an insufferable software developer does.

Yes literally everyone gives a poo poo about this extremely important controversy about the official titles of programmers containing or not containing the word "engineer." Truly this is one of the most divisive topics of debate that face our country today.

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:28

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

Leperflesh posted:

Yes literally everyone gives a poo poo about this extremely important controversy about the official titles of programmers containing or not containing the word "engineer." Truly this is one of the most divisive topics of debate that face our country today.

Words matter and it will be brought up whenever a software developer brings it up. Nobody cares you don't want to talk about it Googler.

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:29

Family Values: Jun 26, 2007

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

Bingo. "Oh, NASA aerospace engineer! Just like my nephew - he's an engineer at Facebook."

And yes, it is broadly similar to the practice of medicine and how it's regulated: prospective engineers must acquire an accredited engineering degree, pass the Fundamentals of Engineering exam to get a license to practice as an intern, complete a multi-year internship under fully licensed professional engineers (typically 4 years - California is 6), then finally pass the Professional Engineering exam (pass rate ~50% just like the Bar) in order to use the title.

And in order to maintain the title you must complete Continuing Education requirements; this is typically 20 hours/year and also requires that you remain "of good character" meaning no felony convictions or things like DUIs or else your state board takes your license. Medical licenses are regulated in exactly the same way.

All of this is because the practice of engineering fundamentally impacts public safety - when engineers screw up, people die and engineers go to jail. It's a very big deal and while the younger engineers might laugh at these programmers calling themselves astronaut firemen or whatever, the older engineers who've actually been in court to defend their work tend to lose their goddamn mind about title misuse.

Even the AIA is starting to take notice with the misuse of the title "architect" for the exact same reasons. Sure, it's a pride thing, but it's also a major public safety issue, particularly in California.

That all sounds very impressive. Maybe your professional organization can trademark 'engineer' and then insist that everyone capitalize it, you know, like Realtors�.

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:31

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Family Values posted:

That all sounds very impressive. Maybe your professional organization can trademark 'engineer' and then insist that everyone capitalize it, you know, like Realtors�.

It's not a professional organization, its the California Board for Professional Engineers, Land Surveyors, and Geologists http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov

quote:

The Board also regulates the use of the following protected titles: Agricultural Engineer, Certified Engineering Geologist, Certified Hydrogeologist, Chemical Engineer, Civil Engineer, Consulting Engineer, Control Systems Engineer, Electrical Engineer, Fire Protection Engineer, Geodetic Engineer, Geomatics Engineer, Geometronic Engineer, Geotechnical Engineer, Industrial Engineer, Land Survey Engineer, Land Surveyor, Licensed Engineer, Licensed Land Surveyor, Mechanical Engineer, Metallurgical Engineer, Nuclear Engineer, Petroleum Engineer, Professional Corrosion Engineer, Professional Engineer, Professional Engineer - Retired, Professional Geologist, Professional Geophysicist, Professional Land Surveyor, Professional Land Surveyor - Retired, Professional Manufacturing Engineer, Professional Quality Engineer, Professional Safety Engineer, Registered Engineer, Soil Engineer, Soils Engineer, Structural Engineer, Survey Engineer, and Traffic Engineer, or any combination or abbreviation of those words and titles.

So you can legally call yourself a software engineer, you probably can't call yourself a professional software engineer and a Professional Engineer - Software would be illegal for sure.

California doesn't have a test for Software Engineer so technically its not illegal here, but in jurisdictions that offer the Soft. E PE it is probably illegal.

The page I'm quoting is for reporting complaints to California's regulator.
\/

Trabisnikof fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Jul 16, 2014

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:37

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

Family Values posted:

That all sounds very impressive. Maybe your professional organization can trademark 'engineer' and then insist that everyone capitalize it, you know, like Realtors�.

The Transportation Professional Certification Board did exactly that with the licenses for traffic operations engineering and transportation planning.

And in the states where it's better enforced, fines for engineering title misuse are typically around $3k/day for individuals and much much more for companies. It's a valuable title. California should really step up enforcement.

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:38

Family Values: Jun 26, 2007

Trabisnikof posted:

It's not a professional organization, its the California Board for Professional Engineers, Land Surveyors, and Geologists http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov

Yes and you need a state license to sell real estate, with tests and everything. It's still stupid when the NAR throws a hissy fit about usage of the term 'realtor' instead of Realtor�.

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:41

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Family Values posted:

Yes and you need a state license to sell real estate, with tests and everything. It's still stupid when the NAR throws a hissy fit about usage of the term 'realtor' instead of Realtor�.

There's a huge difference between Realtor and Professional Engineer, including one is a legally protected term that has vast liability implications for all those involved.

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:43

Family Values: Jun 26, 2007

Trabisnikof posted:

There's a huge difference between Realtor and Professional Engineer, including one is a legally protected term that has vast liability implications for all those involved.

Well I'm glad that we've finally found a D&D approved STEM degree. That's something at least.

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:45

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Family Values posted:

Well I'm glad that we've finally found a D&D approved STEM degree. That's something at least.

That's the point here, someone with a BS in Mechanical Engineering cannot legally call themselves a "Mechanical Engineer" without getting a PE license. There is no such equivalency in California for someone who graduates with a BS in Software Engineering.

# ? Jul 16, 2014 22:49

withak: Jan 15, 2003; Fun Shoe

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

And in order to maintain the title you must complete Continuing Education requirements; this is typically 20 hours/year and also requires that you remain "of good character" meaning no felony convictions or things like DUIs or else your state board takes your license. Medical licenses are regulated in exactly the same way.

California actually doesn't have any continuing education requirements for a PE. You only need to worry about it if you are registered in another state also.

# ? Jul 16, 2014 23:14

Papercut: Aug 24, 2005

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

Bingo. "Oh, NASA aerospace engineer! Just like my nephew - he's an engineer at Facebook."

And yes, it is broadly similar to the practice of medicine and how it's regulated: prospective engineers must acquire an accredited engineering degree, pass the Fundamentals of Engineering exam to get a license to practice as an intern, complete a multi-year internship under fully licensed professional engineers (typically 4 years - California is 6), then finally pass the Professional Engineering exam (pass rate ~50% just like the Bar) in order to use the title.

And in order to maintain the title you must complete Continuing Education requirements; this is typically 20 hours/year and also requires that you remain "of good character" meaning no felony convictions or things like DUIs or else your state board takes your license. Medical licenses are regulated in exactly the same way.

All of this is because the practice of engineering fundamentally impacts public safety - when engineers screw up, people die and engineers go to jail. It's a very big deal and while the younger engineers might laugh at these programmers calling themselves astronaut firemen or whatever, the older engineers who've actually been in court to defend their work tend to lose their goddamn mind about title misuse.

Even the AIA is starting to take notice with the misuse of the title "architect" for the exact same reasons. Sure, it's a pride thing, but it's also a major public safety issue, particularly in California.

So what about hardware engineers, do they get to count as engineers? I have a PE and if you compare what we studied in our engineering undergrad programs to what we're doing now, my friend who designs circuit boards is much more of an engineer than I am.

I understand the title difference in a professional sense, but getting mad that someone's job title includes engineer when you're talking about a field that doesn't even have a PE license is just silly.

# ? Jul 16, 2014 23:53

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Papercut posted:

I understand the title difference in a professional sense, but getting mad that someone's job title includes engineer when you're talking about a field that doesn't even have a PE license is just silly.

And with the tech industry's influence its unlikely California will accept the software PE test. I think we could probably use a software PE in California, especially as software code starts to have more and more lives in its hands (e.g. autonomous vehicles).

# ? Jul 17, 2014 00:00

Papercut: Aug 24, 2005

Trabisnikof posted:

And with the tech industry's influence its unlikely California will accept the software PE test. I think we could probably use a software PE in California, especially as software code starts to have more and more lives in its hands (e.g. autonomous vehicles).

The electrical PE exam is hilarious. Taking it makes you feel like you've timewarped back to the 1940s. Like what tiny tiny niche of PEs in California need to know the most obscure details about brushed DC motor design? Even if you're specifying motors and generators and such, they're designed and built outside of the state. By far the most useful resource for me when studying for the PE was a handbook of electrical calculations published in 1983.

# ? Jul 17, 2014 00:10

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Papercut posted:

The electrical PE exam is hilarious. Taking it makes you feel like you've timewarped back to the 1940s. Like what tiny tiny niche of PEs in California need to know the most obscure details about brushed DC motor design? Even if you're specifying motors and generators and such, they're designed and built outside of the state. By far the most useful resource for me when studying for the PE was a handbook of electrical calculations published in 1983.

True, but the test really isn't the big hurdle anyway, its the time employed on engineering work under a PE. Someone linked the new software PE test earlier and it seemed pretty sensible. I just think it would be useful to help smooth out liability concerns and provide a clear distinction in the marketplace.

# ? Jul 17, 2014 00:19

Slow News Day: Jul 4, 2007

My job title is Sales Engineer. I'll be expecting that cease-and-desist letter in the mail, goons.

# ? Jul 17, 2014 03:39

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

enraged_camel posted:

My job title is Sales Engineer. I'll be expecting that cease-and-desist letter in the mail, goons.

That's actually the most informative comment you've made yet.

# ? Jul 17, 2014 03:42

Slow News Day: Jul 4, 2007

Besides that, the whole "are they real engineers???" debate in this thread is another symptom of D&D's insane hatred and stereotyping of American society's upper-middle class and rich. Between Trabisnikof's crazy ramblings about how Silicon Valley is no different than Houston or Los Alamos ( :rolleyes:

), and Nonsense's... well, nonsense, it's difficult to make out any real arguments that are actually about the state's politics.

Here, let's talk about things that matter.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/16/california-death-penalty_n_5592448.html

quote:

A federal judge has ruled that California's death penalty system is unconstitutional.

U.S. District Judge Cormac J. Carney handed down an order Wednesday, finding that the system is arbitrary and in violation of the Constitution's 8th Amendment.

"California's death penalty system is so plagued by inordinate and unpredictable delay that the death sentence is actually carried out against only a trivial few of those sentenced to death," Carney writes. "For all practical purposes then, a sentence of death in California is a sentence of life imprisonment with the remote possibility of death -- a sentence no rational legislature or jury could ever impose."

Carney continues: "Inordinate and unpredictable delay... has resulted in a system in which arbitrary factors, rather than legitimate ones like the nature of the crime or the date of the death sentence, determine whether an individual will actually be executed. And it has resulted in a system that serves no penological purpose. Such a system is unconstitutional."

The ruling also vacated the death sentence of petitioner Ernest Dewayne Jones (whose middle name has also appeared in news reports as "Dwayne"). Jones was convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced to death in 1995.

Capital punishment was ruled unconstitutional by the state's Supreme Court in 1976, but was reinstated by the state legislature the following year. Since then, 13 inmates have been executed in California, most recently Clarence Ray Allen in 2006. An analysis by the Los Angeles Times found that the state spent $308 million on each execution.

# ? Jul 17, 2014 03:49

Zachack: Jun 1, 2000

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

\
And yes, it is broadly similar to the practice of medicine and how it's regulated: prospective engineers must acquire an accredited engineering degree, pass the Fundamentals of Engineering exam to get a license to practice as an intern, complete a multi-year internship under fully licensed professional engineers (typically 4 years - California is 6), then finally pass the Professional Engineering exam (pass rate ~50% just like the Bar) in order to use the title.

Not really. It's 6 years but 4 are waived if you got your degree from an accredited institution, which is basically a given for most engineers, so the "internship" is only two years. Most people take the FE during college.

quote:

And in order to maintain the title you must complete Continuing Education requirements; this is typically 20 hours/year and also requires that you remain "of good character" meaning no felony convictions or things like DUIs or else your state board takes your license. Medical licenses are regulated in exactly the same way.

I think this is completely untrue as the only evidence that PELS seems to give a poo poo about is the renewal fee I send in every couple years. A felony could be used to strip a license but I don't think it automatically does.

quote:

All of this is because the practice of engineering fundamentally impacts public safety - when engineers screw up, people die and engineers go to jail. It's a very big deal and while the younger engineers might laugh at these programmers calling themselves astronaut firemen or whatever, the older engineers who've actually been in court to defend their work tend to lose their goddamn mind about title misuse.

I guess, but I've never encountered title misuse, largely because that would require an invalid stamp. And unless the law changed everything not a civil/mechanical/electrical isn't even a license, it's just a title. I'm not even sure what my stamp does besides leave ink on things.

# ? Jul 17, 2014 04:23

Leperflesh: May 17, 2007

enraged_camel posted:

Besides that, the whole "are they real engineers???" debate in this thread is another symptom of D&D's insane hatred and stereotyping of American society's upper-middle class and rich. Between Trabisnikof's crazy ramblings about how Silicon Valley is no different than Houston or Los Alamos (), and Nonsense's... well, nonsense, it's difficult to make out any real arguments that are actually about the state's politics.

Here, let's talk about things that matter.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/16/california-death-penalty_n_5592448.html

loving thank you.

The death penalty is ineffective as a deterrent, barbaric as a form of revenge, nonsensical as a form of punishment (the dead cannot feel remorse), and as you also showed, ridiculously expensive. It does not provide "closure" (any more than a life sentence would) and the Innocence Project has proven (with DNA evidence) that courts and juries have repeatedly put innocent people to death; execution eliminates the possibility that an innocent person can be exonerated and released, which is a possibility that should always be left open as an explicit admission that no criminal justice system can ever be perfect.

The exact reason it's been struck down this time would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic. The state is so inept at actually following through on a death penalty that execution has become essentially a random chance after a conviction and sentence, and not a particularly likely one.

Let's use that three hundred million per executed person and spend it on fighting poverty, the #1 factor that leads to violent crime.

# ? Jul 17, 2014 06:08

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

enraged_camel posted:

Besides that, the whole "are they real engineers???" debate in this thread is another symptom of D&D's insane hatred and stereotyping of American society's upper-middle class and rich. Between Trabisnikof's crazy ramblings about how Silicon Valley is no different than Houston or Los Alamos (), and Nonsense's... well, nonsense, it's difficult to make out any real arguments that are actually about the state's politics.

Here, let's talk about things that matter.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/16/california-death-penalty_n_5592448.html

That ruling only applies to one case so we'll have to wait on the appeal to see if it has any meaningful effect.

# ? Jul 17, 2014 06:10

Leperflesh: May 17, 2007

Trabisnikof posted:

That ruling only applies to one case so we'll have to wait on the appeal to see if it has any meaningful effect.

The title of the article and the first paragraph both explicitly say that the ruling strikes down California's death penalty. Did you find a source contradicting that?

e. the title of the actual judgment is

quote:

ORDER DECLARING CALIFORNIA�S DEATH PENALTY SYSTEM UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND VACATING PETITIONER�S DEATH SENTENCE

Sounds pretty definitive to me. It will of course be appealed.

# ? Jul 17, 2014 06:22

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Leperflesh posted:

The title of the article and the first paragraph both explicitly say that the ruling strikes down California's death penalty. Did you find a source contradicting that?

e. the title of the actual judgment is

Sounds pretty definitive to me. It will of course be appealed.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Federal-judge-rules-California-s-death-penalty-5625926.php

quote:

The ruling by U.S. District Judge Cormac Carney of Santa Ana was limited to a single case and had no immediate impact on executions statewide, which have been halted by federal courts since 2006 because of multiple problems in lethal injection procedures.

So not only does this case not impact the death penalty statewide, but there has been a moratorium in California since 2006. So this case will be meaningful if upheld upon appeal. But as it stands it only helps the one man. But at least that's one life.

# ? Jul 17, 2014 06:26

My Q-Face: Jul 8, 2002; A dumb racist who need to kill themselves

Kobayashi posted:

Ask those poor, beleaguered rank and file about their economic views. There's plenty of "mah taxes are too damned high goddamn government bureaucracy" sentiment at the individual contributor level too. Their revulsion at GOP hate-mongering may outweigh their lolbertarian economics at the ballot box, sure, but that doesn't preclude their regressive economic views from contributing to the poisonous atmosphere developing in ~~Silicon Valley~~ the Bay Area.

That's because they are ignorant of how marginal tax rates actually work and how things like :siren:

The Death Tax :siren:

actually affect them, and also how they shouldn't leap to spend every penny on the most expensive house or apartment or car they can afford just because they have a preconceived notion about how somebody with their place in the social/professional scheme is expected to live.

# ? Jul 17, 2014 12:38

Family Values: Jun 26, 2007

Right, SV hates taxes. That's why Santa Clara voted against Prop 30, which increased taxes on high income earners. Oh wait, Santa Clara county actually passed it by a solid margin. Yeah but I bet those evil fucks in San Mateo rejected it, after all that's where the real richies form SV live. Nope, they passed it by double digit margins too. But mah taxes!

# ? Jul 17, 2014 15:45

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

Family Values posted:

Right, SV hates taxes. That's why Santa Clara voted against Prop 30, which increased taxes on high income earners. Oh wait, Santa Clara county actually passed it by a solid margin. Yeah but I bet those evil fucks in San Mateo rejected it, after all that's where the real richies form SV live. Nope, they passed it by double digit margins too. But mah taxes!

They also voted near evenly for Prop 31 though.

# ? Jul 17, 2014 16:24

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 10, 2024 20:25

Family Values: Jun 26, 2007

computer parts posted:

They also voted near evenly for Prop 31 though.

San Mateo rejected it by 20 points? And Santa Clara's 8 point margin isn't quite as emphatic, but still solid. They both also rejected the union funding prop by huge margins. Not seeing the den of libertarian villainy in these results.

# ? Jul 17, 2014 16:45

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > California Politics: Madame Senator, this is a morgue

«‹›957 »