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api call girl posted:Again some kind of willful misrepresentation of the actual text. Optimus doesn't fake any disaster, he recognizes the situation that there's an attack coming as soon as the Autobots are in one defenseless location so they never get on the ship. Starscream arrives and shoots it down. They get on the ship, bail out in a booster, then wait until the Decepticons have overrun Chicago in order to make a point. I don't think that's even an interpretation of the text, it's just...what happens. Optimus Prime says 'Your leaders will now understand: Decepticons will never leave your planet alone. And we needed them to believe we had gone.' I suppose you can read referent of 'we' in 'we needed them' as 'the Decepticons', but...why? What advantage do the Autobots gain by delaying until the pillars are nearly activated? It seems pretty parsimonious to read the referent of 'we' as 'your leaders'. I don't think it's willful misinterpretation to conclude that Optimus decided to make a demonstration of what would happen to Chicago without Autobot protection.
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Jul 23, 2014 21:48
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| # ? May 11, 2024 18:37 |
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Still, saying "Optimus Prime fakes an aviation disaster" isn't really accurate.
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Jul 23, 2014 21:49
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So he was supposed to do what exactly? Start another pitched fight in the middle of a populated city that the humans just told them not to do? The Autobots were told to leave. They knew what would happen and decided to stay to clean up after the fact anyways.
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Jul 23, 2014 22:21
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Excelsiortothemax posted:So he was supposed to do what exactly? Start another pitched fight in the middle of a populated city that the humans just told them not to do?
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Jul 23, 2014 22:24
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Arquinsiel posted:He did that. After the Decepticons broke their word and the city was devastated. Guess he should have just left and let all of humanity be enslaved.
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Jul 24, 2014 00:20
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Excelsiortothemax posted:After the Decepticons broke their word and the city was devastated. Guess he should have just left and let all of humanity be enslaved. He could've turned up and said 'This is really horrible, I wish we could've stopped it, if only we'd gotten here sooner  ' instead of 'All according to plan. Let's kill them all,' followed by his rejection of the enemy leadership's proposed truce in favor of two brutal executions. His actions help illuminate his motivations and beliefs!
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Jul 24, 2014 00:29
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Optimus is hugely insecure. As shown in the latest film, the easiest way to cut him down is to tell him he's not needed anymore. He wants humanity to be dependent upon him, and this obviously contradicts his rhetoric about freedom. Humanity is exactly as free under Cemetery Wind as it was under NEST. Again, this isn't even subtext. It's stated aloud by multiple different characters across all the films.
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Jul 24, 2014 00:57
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General Battuta posted:He could've turned up and said 'This is really horrible, I wish we could've stopped it, if only we'd gotten here sooner
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Jul 24, 2014 02:58
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So Optimus Prime could've publicly defied the general public and the governments of Earth to go around hunting Decepticons, the Decepticons could've killed a lot more people as per their threat, and then they would have gone to Chicago while Optimus Prime was stuck halfway around the world killing Shockwave in Bulgaria or something. What part of that sounds better as a strategy?
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Jul 24, 2014 03:58
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Optimus's systemic lies and deception from the previous 2.5 films undermines his credibility entirely.
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Jul 24, 2014 04:14
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api call girl posted:So Optimus Prime could've publicly defied the general public and the governments of Earth to go around hunting Decepticons, the Decepticons could've killed a lot more people as per their threat, and then they would have gone to Chicago while Optimus Prime was stuck halfway around the world killing Shockwave in Bulgaria or something. Again, he could have done exactly what he did in the movie but said something other than 'Excellent, now the humans will appreciate how valuable I am' and he would've come off a lot better.
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Jul 24, 2014 04:26
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what exactly is good about sitting around while chicago gets murdered to prove a lovely point. The entire thing turned out to bite them in the rear end when the humans decided "gently caress autobots" and took care of robot problem themselves
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Jul 24, 2014 04:30
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Rita Repulsa posted:The entire thing turned out to bite them in the rear end when the humans decided "gently caress autobots" and took care of robot problem themselves They sure did a bang up job of that when Megatron took over their robot problem solution so that he could detonate their robot problem solution bomb in a populated city then use the resulting organic matter->transformium conversion robot problem solution results to rebuild his own robot problem solution army. Backstabbing the Autobots as part of the robot problem solution deal to get the robot problem solution bomb was just robot problem solution icing, really. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 04:35
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Nobody in these movies does a bang-up job of anything, the Autobots have been driven to extinction, the Decepticons are effectively extinct, and the humans have gotten nothing out of the whole affair except an escalating series of new enemies and existential threats (and some weapons). The point is that Optimus Prime is as manipulative, ruthless, systematically deceptive, and megalomaniacal as everyone else. 'Let's fake our own deaths, then wait for Sentinel's end game so we can strike at the right moment, demonstrating to the humans that we're valuable and necessary' is a good strategy in that it achieves Optimus' goals, it's just not heroic or morally admirable. Optimus completes the strategy by refusing a truce and decapitating the Decepticon leadership. He then promises never to abandon Earth (after closing off an avenue to a negotiated peace). Between that event and TF4 someone apparently decides he's actually incredibly dangerous and decides to disassemble his power base. The people who make and carry out this decision are also fairly terrible, selfish, and manipulative, but it's not like they don't have a point. General Battuta fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 04:37
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General Battuta posted:He could've turned up and said 'This is really horrible, I wish we could've stopped it, if only we'd gotten here sooner No one believed the Autobots were really dead in DotM, so the big reveal was only going to be "how" they survived and the 'gently caress yeah!' moment of them popping up in Chicago to save the day. A more sympathetic reveal of the Autobots might have been actually seeing them emerging from the booster, some expository dialogue describing their successful escape to one another and justifying their distrust of the Decepticons, the world still immediately thinking them dead, and Optimus horrified with news from Chicago and grimly deciding need to keep the charade of their death alive so as stage a surprise attack. You can still have a bit of a diminished version of the "gently caress yeah!" Chicago arrival because they're racing the clock to get to Chicago before it's too late. General Battuta posted:Yeah, it's part of what sells me on the idea that Bay is trying to do everything he can to make his viewers realize the Autobots are monsters without actually coming out and saying 'Optimus Prime is EVIL'. He'll show you Optimus sacrificing Chicago to prove his political worth, he'll have Optimus tell the viewer he did it, he'll make the 'villains' of the next film a black ops unit that believes the Autobots are as much a threat as the Decepticons...but he'll have Optimus parrot a few lines about Freedom and Honor, and then I guess he'll laugh or weep or whatever he does when people keep rooting for the red truck of genocide. This might be a strange reading for me, but the old comics and cartoons, the Autobots and maybe even especially Optimus seemed to view combat, conflict and war as a burden. It wasn't something they casually chose to do, it was something that seemed almost at odds with their personal morality and ethics, but it was something they did because they believed that by fighting it would result in a future where they wouldn't need to, anymore. In the films, however, the Autobots seem to be happy and grateful for the chance to fight, they love an excuse for combat.
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Jul 24, 2014 04:53
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You could totally do that but I think the movies are only watchable if you get to cackle at Optimus' thinly veiled villainy. It's not like I want Bay to start presenting Optimus as a real hero. And yes I agree with your reading: the Autobots in these movies are incredibly bloodthirsty. The Decepticons sometimes seem that way too, but often they feel more instrumental and objective-driven (something I think Terry has touched on).
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Jul 24, 2014 04:58
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api call girl posted:They sure did a bang up job of that when Megatron took over their robot problem solution so that he could detonate their robot problem solution bomb in a populated city then use the resulting organic matter->transformium conversion robot problem solution results to rebuild his own robot problem solution army. That's Galvatron - a distinct character who combines traits from Megatron, Sentinel, and Optimus. Cemetery Wind are not good guys at all, but they undeniably represent Optimus getting a taste of his own medicine. They are literally clones of Optimus, Bee, etc. And their plan only goes awry because Galvatron escaped what is explicitly torture. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 08:21
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Cemetery Wind use the exact same tactics and strategies the Autobots themselves use to hunt Decepticons. They even use the same code-phrases ('Cracking steel!'). The scene where they hunt down Ratchet is basically exactly the same as the scene where the Decepticons are hunted down in the second film.
Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 09:50 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 08:48
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I don't think it is the filmmakers intent to make the autobots evil (though it's a decently valid reading) but I do try to show that the autobots are shady as gently caress at best. They are probably regarded be the "good guys" in these movies, but they sure as poo poo aren't portrayed as heroes.
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Jul 24, 2014 09:21
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Gatts posted:You also have the fat guy who thinks he is a badass and the Anime Japanophile. Wahlberg is the Jock. FrostedButts posted:Action films always tend to do better on a foreign scale because most require very little translation. Sometimes they don't even bother providing subtitles. There are Asian theaters where it is literally just one guy with a microphone doing his best to translate the dialogue in between explosions. Most watching won't really care much about the dialogue anyway seeing as how they only came for the CGI booms. I mean seriously  computer parts posted:Larger populations mean better chance for nut jobs. "Shanghai Daily is reporting that a 14-year-old from Yibin in Sichuan, China has been drinking Gasoline for the last five years to become a “valiant fighter” like Optimus Prime. The youngster first saw the animated Transformers tv series when he was nine years old, and was so impressed that be “that he began drinking fuel on a daily basis to “obtain energy” and become a mighty warrior like the Transformers.”" Assepoester fucked around with this message at 10:03 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 09:54
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SMG, what's your take on Lockdown's 'If you see my face your life is done!' comment, given how much faces, violence and disguises have fit into the Bay films? And given that Lockdown regularly shows his face to both Autobots and humans throughout the film.
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Jul 25, 2014 09:02
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Milky Moor posted:SMG, what's your take on Lockdown's 'If you see my face your life is done!' comment, given how much faces, violence and disguises have fit into the Bay films? And given that Lockdown regularly shows his face to both Autobots and humans throughout the film. "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see Me and live" - Exodus 33:20
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Jul 25, 2014 09:59
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:"Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see Me and live" - Exodus 33:20 Yeah, I'll play that.
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Jul 25, 2014 11:05
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This might be better for BSS, but Humble Bundle currently has a deal on Transformers comics. Any of these worth picking up? I think someone mentioned that More Than Meets The Eye was good. https://www.humblebundle.com/books
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Jul 30, 2014 20:05
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Yup, well worth getting. The "Classics" stuff is worth it just for cheese value alone.
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Jul 30, 2014 20:10
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Gatts posted:Bee? I dunmo. He seems like he could turnout ok. But for some reason I think of him being Dickeye. I don't know if I should be insulted or not.
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Jul 30, 2014 21:29
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Tomero_the_Great posted:This might be better for BSS, but Humble Bundle currently has a deal on Transformers comics. About 10 hours left for this. The MTMTE and RID comics actually echoes some of the things we discuss here. There are non-aligned robots decrying the Autobots as warmongers and want them to leave Cybertron and to control the crowd the Autobots use Decepticon POWs with explosives installed in them. I like the less-than-glowing depictions of familiar characters too like Prowl and Rodimus. If you are a total Transformers nerd, the comics also bring back some obscure characters like Metalhawk and Horri-Bull. In other news, those eager to take some screencaps will be happy to know that the movie will be on video on 30 September.
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Aug 6, 2014 08:53
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The MSJ posted:About 10 hours left for this. Crap, thanks for the heads up. I wanted to buy the comics but lost track of time. I saw the Age of Extinction last week. When I walked away from it, I thought it was the best of the four. But looking back and thinking more on it, I think it's about the same. Highlights for me were the humans. I greatly preferred them over the old cast. I also rather liked that Optimus was no longer the instant win button for the good guys, it really helps the tension. However at the same time the biggest downer on the movie for me was the lack of good bot on bot action. The Dinobots left me with a strong aftertaste like ROTF Devastator. Great idea, but (in the case of the Dinobots) bad introduction and completely non delivers.Seriously, things that stood out to me from the previous movies were stuff like in Transformers where Optimus transforms to take on Bonecrusher, in ROTF the fight in the forest and the Fallen losing face, in DOTM getting tangled in cables (still hilarious) and the fight with Sentinel. Lockdown was really menacing, but the fights with him aren't going to stick with me. I also kept hoping for a throwdown between Bee and Stinger, but nothing really happened. Still, the story, the different mood and the performance of the humans kept it entertaining for me.
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Aug 6, 2014 09:29
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Bay may not direct the next one (though hasn't he said that every time?): http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/movies/2014/08/07/michael-bay-transformers-teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles/13295115/ Michael goddamn Bay posted:"There's kind of a new chapter, a new direction in movies I want to make," says Bay, who is eyeing a passion project, a documentary on elephant poaching. "I have a lot of stories to tell. And it's about flexing new muscles." A Bay documentary sounds good, but this ruins my ideal situation where he makes one last film tying up the Optimus vs. God(s) plot with Damon Lindelof as co-writer.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:38
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Hey, good for him. I hope he does do something different.
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Aug 12, 2014 05:33
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I like the Transformers movies, I try not to read too much into what a director chooses to make a movie about, depiction isn't endorsement and so on, but the fact that Michael Bay is apparently really passionate about loving elephant poaching is straight-up disgusting.
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Aug 12, 2014 05:44
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Sir Kodiak posted:I like the Transformers movies, I try not to read too much into what a director chooses to make a movie about, depiction isn't endorsement and so on, but the fact that Michael Bay is apparently really passionate about loving elephant poaching is straight-up disgusting. Are you under the impression that Michael Bay likes elephant poaching? Because I'd assume that it's not going to be a glowing, feel-good documentary.
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Aug 12, 2014 05:48
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DoctorWhat posted:Are you under the impression that Michael Bay likes elephant poaching? Because I'd assume that it's not going to be a glowing, feel-good documentary. I think Kodiak was making fun of poo poo like this.
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Aug 12, 2014 05:52
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Hey, maybe he'll give some poacher group the Pain and Gain treatment.  "This is still a true story"
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Aug 12, 2014 06:14
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There's going to be a lot of beautiful scenes of nature, dead elephants, burning confiscated tusks and probably Rangers in firefights with poachers.
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Aug 12, 2014 07:11
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He's talked about the elephant poaching movie before and how it'd be about how terrible it is.
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Aug 12, 2014 13:12
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Lord Krangdar posted:I think Kodiak was making fun of poo poo like this. Yep.
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Aug 12, 2014 17:46
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Liking the Transformers movies can get you arrested.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:13
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That goes well beyond "liking", honestly.
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Aug 13, 2014 20:58
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How dumb was this dude to not know that this is illegal?
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Aug 13, 2014 21:28
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