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What is the best version of El? This poll is closed. |
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| Elminster |
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20 | 6.45% |
| Elmara |
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20 | 6.45% |
| Entwine |
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13 | 4.19% |
| GURPS |
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99 | 31.94% |
| El Kabong |
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153 | 49.35% |
| Elves |
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5 | 1.61% |
| Total: | 310 votes | ||
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Tollymain posted:what is the most absurd thing el-man's ever done? what's the most absurd thing that's ever been done to him? In 2nd Edition D&D, the Psionic's book they released basically had an entirely different rule set then magic, and the stated goal that Psionics and Mages are completely different and don't interact. Which meant a whole new set of saves, and Elminster got them. And a whole bunch of levels in Psioncist to support it. So at some point he got trained in the arts of the mind, but the levels were in his stat block at some point. And at one point he had an absurd number of contingency spells prepped. It was sport in the D&D Usenet group to try to figure out how to kill him. The closest anyone could think of was to swarm him with Psionists to keep him busy long enough for some Mages to maybe teleport him into a sphere of annihilation. It wasn't considered a good plan. But it was something to do when we weren't baiting SKR.
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Aug 4, 2014 18:16
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Thomamelas posted:In 2nd Edition D&D, the Psionic's book they released basically had an entirely different rule set then magic, and the stated goal that Psionics and Mages are completely different and don't interact. Which meant a whole new set of saves, and Elminster got them. And a whole bunch of levels in Psioncist to support it. So at some point he got trained in the arts of the mind, but the levels were in his stat block at some point. My plan is to kill Mystra (y'know... again) and then murder the sad old man.
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Aug 4, 2014 18:17
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RPZip posted:My plan is to kill Mystra (y'know... again) and then murder the sad old man. It's been decade and change but I think there was some issue with one of his contingencies being tied to attacking her. The idea of slowly murdering those around him was thrown around but getting away with it long enough to really break him seemed unfeasible.
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Aug 4, 2014 18:20
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Getting chopped in half sounds deadlier than getting shot in the torso unless its like by a RPG. Or a point blank shotgun. Or an anti-material rifle. Well, it's harder to patch up, sure. But sometimes you get a really lucky(?) shot that just kind of bounces around in your body and pulps the organs instead of coming out the other side cleanly. Or you get a shot that tears out the exit wound and everything even slightly near it.
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Aug 4, 2014 18:23
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Kai Tave posted:The various complaints about how Eberron should totally have guns aren't really any more creative though. As soon as a certain subset of nerd sees anything in a fantasy game that's even slightly more advanced than your standard Tolkienian pastiche they immediately leap straight to gunpowder and latch onto it singlemindedly. EDIT: Hell. I forgot the 3.5E underwater campaign setting that was mentioned in Fatal and Friends had a weird set of gun technology that should have been readily available in a setting that had access to air elementals. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Aug 4, 2014 |
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Aug 4, 2014 18:25
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Our party wizard was always upset that Elminster stayed ahead of him in levels despite El-man lounging around all day not adventuring. We hit on the idea he cast a spell to siphon off 1% of all experience gained in FR. That's my Elminster story.
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Aug 4, 2014 18:26
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MadScientistWorking posted:Who said anything about gunpowder? Just going by the central conceit of the setting you should be rocking technology comparable to modern day guns. That doesn't even remotely follow and I'm strongly beginning to suspect that your copy of Eberron is vastly different from everyone else's.
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Aug 4, 2014 18:28
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The only Elminster I've ever seen in practice was a neat one - it was from an old 2e box on the Dales and particularly Shadowdale and the caves underneath it, so you'd think Elminster would figure in largely, right? He doesn't. He is played as a senile old wizard who shows up in the adventure in the book exactly once - in a cave where the party is likely to wander in after having had to fight through a horse of mutant cave monsters, drow traps and some derro. He is using this cave to teach his new puppy, and every time he says the word 'heel' the wand in his pocket goes off and heals one of the party members. E: The book also pointed out that pretty much everyone in Shadowdale has class levels and is a retired adventurer. Shadowdale is like some kind of adventurer retirement community. They never do stuff except beat up shoplifters or whatever, though, not even explore the massive tunnel complex under the inn. E2: The book also noted that the draw spike traps had salt sprinkled over them, solely because drow are total dicks. Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Aug 4, 2014 |
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Aug 4, 2014 18:30
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M. Night Skymall posted:Unrelated to guns, how are you liking 4e Zeitgeist? I'm getting ready to run it and I'm curious how well the encounters work as written or if I'll end up having to re-balance stuff like I did with War of the Burning Sky. About my only points of concern are with solos, as always. Quite a few of them get extra turns as they get closer to dying, so they need some way to shrug off EoNT effects. WotBS had super lazy monster design. Zeitgeist was designed for 4e, using advice from people who know the game, and its production values are incredible.
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Aug 4, 2014 18:32
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Kai Tave posted:That doesn't even remotely follow and I'm strongly beginning to suspect that your copy of Eberron is vastly different from everyone else's. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Aug 4, 2014 |
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Aug 4, 2014 18:34
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Guns are almost always just "SUPER crossbows" but in the sense that they have both crossbow good points (high damage, simple) and bad points (loving everything else that makes crossbows worthless in almost every edition) only magnified.
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Aug 4, 2014 19:21
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So, how about Ghostwalk? Eh? Eh? 
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Aug 4, 2014 19:22
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I kind of liked the idea behind Ghostwalk, because trying to optimize your time as a g-g-g-g-g-g-ghost Scoob! versus getting poo poo done in the flesh is a good angle to explore. In practice it was 3.0 Edition.
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Aug 4, 2014 19:25
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zachol posted:The problem is there isn't really a good way to have a dedicated firearm user in a setting/game that's primarily focused on classic D&D tropes. Single shot backup weapons are one thing, and a great way to do it if you're doing some kind of Renaissance or high seas or other emerging firearms setting, but it's pretty weird to have someone who uses something like reliable six shooters that are at least somewhat generally available and everyone else is still also using bows and swords.
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Aug 4, 2014 19:25
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Mr. Maltose posted:I kind of liked the idea behind Ghostwalk, because trying to optimize your time as a g-g-g-g-g-g-ghost Scoob! versus getting poo poo done in the flesh is a good angle to explore. In practice it was 3.0 Edition. Yeah. It's a neat idea to have death open that up, though it's simultaneously the rear end-backwards solution to D&D's lethality. "How do we solve D&D's lethality? Well, reducing the lethality is out of the question because... uh... anyway, you get to play ghosts!" Then again, getting to play a ghost is rad in theory. In 3.0, considerably less so. I've kind of wanted to have a variant to some hardcore dungeoneering where characters that die get to be the guardian spirits of the survivors and take various actions to assist the survivors, to give folks something to do while they're waiting to get new PCs at the next settlement or beast's belly or whatever.
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Aug 4, 2014 19:31
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MadScientistWorking posted:It doesn't because you aren't really being all that creative. The technology needed to build a gun is inherent to the setting with the whole elemental binding aspect. ProfessorCirno posted:Guns are almost always just "SUPER crossbows" but in the sense that they have both crossbow good points (high damage, simple) and bad points (loving everything else that makes crossbows worthless in almost every edition) only magnified.
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Aug 4, 2014 19:35
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Comrade Gorbash posted:I've never understood why someone wouldn't just do it musketeer style. Or, like, more or less actual history style. That is, as a single shot, super high damage option, but one you can't really use more than once per fight, and carrying more than two or three just becomes too cumbersome. Basically, they're like a grenade or a rocket in other settings. Because that wasn't the actual history style, really. There were some guys who would line the inside of their greatcoats with holsters. I mean, yes, fire-and-forget was totally how people did it, but you carried more than one pistol, because they were small, easily concealed in a large coat and so on. E: You do still hit an upper limit, but I'd say it's around 6-8 guns. If you spring for the ones that had dual barrels and triggers so you get two shots per gun... Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Aug 4, 2014 |
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Aug 4, 2014 19:38
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Comrade Gorbash posted:I've never understood why someone wouldn't just do it musketeer style. Or, like, more or less actual history style. That is, as a single shot, super high damage option, but one you can't really use more than once per fight, and carrying more than two or three just becomes too cumbersome. Basically, they're like a grenade or a rocket in other settings. Fantasy + Cowboys > Fantasy (no cowboys)
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Aug 4, 2014 19:40
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Mors Rattus posted:Because that wasn't the actual history style, really. There were some guys who would line the inside of their greatcoats with holsters. I mean, yes, fire-and-forget was totally how people did it, but you carried more than one pistol, because they were small, easily concealed in a large coat and so on. The answer to that is, what period? There's a lot of variability as to whether that would be reasonable depending on specifically when it comes up. But it doesn't really matter. Balancing 6 or so high damage shots from a specialist is doable in game terms. Wizards, after all.
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Aug 4, 2014 19:42
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Mors Rattus posted:Because that wasn't the actual history style, really. There were some guys who would line the inside of their greatcoats with holsters. I mean, yes, fire-and-forget was totally how people did it, but you carried more than one pistol, because they were small, easily concealed in a large coat and so on. Playing a character that could fire disposable guns at about the same rounds/day as a Barbarian can rage would actually be really neat. Add some gun powers of some sort to build out a more customizable gun-wielding bad-rear end.
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Aug 4, 2014 19:43
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Granted so! (You just have to remember to take an hour and a half after the fight to reload all your guns.)
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Aug 4, 2014 19:44
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Comrade Gorbash posted:So your argument is that you have a detailed enough understanding of a completely made up magic process to make declarative statements about what is obviously possible with it. No man you don't get it, you just aren't creative enough to make up a bunch of assumptions unsupported by the text. Really, if you just stop and think about it the fact that Eberron has elemental airships and trains obviously implies that it should also have modern firearms, nuclear weapons, computers, cars, a space program, smartphones, and socialized health care too. Keith Baker's failure of imagination in this regard is one of the biggest strikes against Eberron, as well most truly imaginative roleplayers know, furthermore
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Aug 4, 2014 19:47
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I picture a row of adventurers, sitting at camp. The wizard mutters under his breath as he reviews his arcane incantations. The cleric silently prays to his god, holding the holy symbol to his chest with reverence. Meanwhile, clicking can be heard from the gunlugger as he disassembles, cleans, and reloads 10 guns with expert timing and precision.
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Aug 4, 2014 19:49
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Evil Sagan posted:I picture a row of adventurers, sitting at camp. The wizard mutters under his breath as he reviews his arcane incantations. The cleric silently prays to his god, holding the holy symbol to his chest with reverence. Meanwhile, clicking can be heard from the gunlugger as he disassembles, cleans, and reloads 10 guns with expert timing and precision. I have no problem with this scene. 
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Aug 4, 2014 19:54
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Evil Sagan posted:I picture a row of adventurers, sitting at camp. The wizard mutters under his breath as he reviews his arcane incantations. The cleric silently prays to his god, holding the holy symbol to his chest with reverence. Meanwhile, clicking can be heard from the gunlugger as he disassembles, cleans, and reloads 10 guns with expert timing and precision. Works for me
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Aug 4, 2014 19:57
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Evil Sagan posted:I picture a row of adventurers, sitting at camp. The wizard mutters under his breath as he reviews his arcane incantations. The cleric silently prays to his god, holding the holy symbol to his chest with reverence. Meanwhile, clicking can be heard from the gunlugger as he disassembles, cleans, and reloads 10 guns with expert timing and precision. Sounds pretty sweet for the gunlugger. Bonus points if he cheeses off the wizard by humming a tune while tuning his lovely guns.
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Aug 4, 2014 20:01
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I'd hate to meet the person that has a problem with that arrangement.
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Aug 4, 2014 20:20
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Evil Sagan posted:I picture a row of adventurers, sitting at camp. The wizard mutters under his breath as he reviews his arcane incantations. The cleric silently prays to his god, holding the holy symbol to his chest with reverence. Meanwhile, clicking can be heard from the gunlugger as he disassembles, cleans, and reloads 10 guns with expert timing and precision. Off to the side, the Fighter polishes his sword. "loving nerds," he scowls.
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Aug 4, 2014 20:24
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The gunslinger better stop after each one to dote on them like beloved daughters, calling each by name.
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Aug 4, 2014 20:27
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Evil Sagan posted:I'd hate to meet the person that has a problem with that arrangement. I'm the person that hates that arrangement because "10 times a day you can do slightly more damage" is a terrible way to sacrifice ability for flavor. Just let players call bows rifles, dang.
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Aug 4, 2014 20:31
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Mormon Star Wars posted:Just let players call bows rifles, dang.
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Aug 4, 2014 20:39
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The actual answer is that D&D mechanically punishes the poo poo out of that in two ways. 1) "Switch Hitting" starting at 3e (but also present in much of 2e) has been a starkly poor idea because of the way attributes and feats/weapon specializations work. D&D has always rewarded specializing, but with fighters it focuses with just such laser accuracy on one weapons that trying to use multiple weapons is almost always a poor idea. Even if you avoid the one weapon issue, you hit that you are still pushed into specializing in ranged or melee fighting, more or less never both. 2) Magic weapons. Having a brace of ten guns or your gun and rapier and dagger is pretty cool, except D&D since it's birth has mandated magical weapons. AD&D 1e and 2e had monsters you could not hit without magical weapons, 3e introduced mandatory magical weapons through poor math and the "Big 6," Pathfinder actually made that WORSE by tying DR to magical weapons, and unless you use inherent bonuses, 4e has all the same problems. 5e, for all it's claims of flat math and magic items being optional, has of course brought back enemies you need a magic weapon to hit, but who the gently caress expects anything not terrible from 5e anyways.
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Aug 4, 2014 20:41
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Mormon Star Wars posted:I'm the person that hates that arrangement because "10 times a day you can do slightly more damage" is a terrible way to sacrifice ability for flavor. I've gotten away from the original conversation. I think rifles that work as bows as fine. If you want to make a ranger or a fighter with a different name and description for their ranged weapon of choice, that's an excellent thing to be able to do. I just think it would be neat if you could add more options too. Whatever Pathfinder's faults are, the addition of Rage Powers to the Barbarian is not one of them.
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Aug 4, 2014 20:45
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Galaga Galaxian posted:The gunslinger better stop after each one to dote on them like beloved daughters, calling each by name. I'm now imagining Wonder Green as a DnD gunslinger.
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Aug 4, 2014 20:59
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Mormon Star Wars posted:I'm the person that hates that arrangement because "10 times a day you can do slightly more damage" is a terrible way to sacrifice ability for flavor. There's no reason we can't have it both ways. Re-skinning bows/crossbows is a lot of fun, but so is being able to blast someone in the face once in awhile and then wading in with my saber to finish things off.
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Aug 4, 2014 21:01
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Mors Rattus posted:The only Elminster I've ever seen in practice was a neat one - it was from an old 2e box on the Dales and particularly Shadowdale and the caves underneath it, so you'd think Elminster would figure in largely, right? You're thinking of the Shadowdale book that came in the 2E campaign box and the adventure in that book, "Beneath the Twisted Tower." That set is still the best introduction to the setting. As for guns, I like the exploding damage dice guns from 2E. I thought they had a good handle on the "unreliable but potentially devastating" angle, but they definitely didn't work well as a PC's main weapon.
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Aug 4, 2014 21:05
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Galaga Galaxian posted:The gunslinger better stop after each one to dote on them like beloved daughters, calling each by name. That's creepy
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Aug 4, 2014 21:50
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Captain Foo posted:That's creepy Weapon Proficiency (Samantha) Weapon Proficiency (Betty) Weapon Proficiency (Sarah) ...
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Aug 4, 2014 21:55
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Captain Foo posted:That's creepy Gun nuts tend to be creepy in media.
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Aug 4, 2014 22:06
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Evil Sagan posted:I'd hate to meet the person that has a problem with that arrangement. 
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Aug 4, 2014 22:17
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