|
No real need to guess, you can do a minimal amount of google-grade internet research and get some pretty useful and interesting basic information. Note that I knew next to nothing about ancient mining and was interested to see just how the Romans were doing it. Turns out they were using a lot of sophisticated hydraulic techniques to expose rich deposits, in areas that frequently had been mined more informally by locals for centuries if not longer, followed by a combination of thermal shocking and hydraulic pressure to shatter the stone, manual labor to further break it up, followed in turn by all the usual ancient smelting and basic chemical tricks for extracting the various metals. Two good wikipedia articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining#Ancient_Greek_and_Roman_Mining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Roman_Britain If you speak German, I also found a pretty decent (for the internet) article describing mining in ancient Rome that is pretty heavily rooted in descriptions from the period, in particular Diodor and "Plinius" (I'm guessing that's the non-anglicized form of Pliny?) http://rompedia.wikia.com/wiki/R%C3%B6mischer_Bergbau
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2014 18:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 15:14 |
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:I'm guessing that in the ancient world "crushing the ore" means back-breaking manual labor.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2014 18:13
|
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:Actually, they probably had waterwheels to automate most of of the crushing. But all that rock had to be carried out by hand through tiny tunnels--tons of it, to extract tiny amounts of gold. A lot of what I'm reading makes it look like the tiny tunnels was more of an exploratory thing to find the good veins of rock, or really small scale operations that didn't differ much from how local-scale mining was done from the bronze age on forward. Apparently there was a loving LOT of what we would consider open pit strip mining done by the Romans. They'd redirect local water sources to hydraulically wash away dirt etc. until they got down to the bedrock, then use thermal and hydraulic fracturing techniques to bust up the rock, then further break it down before going into more normal smelting and extraction operations. I haven't seen any specifics yet on how the big rocks -> little rocks step between the thermal cracking and smelting was done, though.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2014 18:20
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:A lot of what I'm reading makes it look like the tiny tunnels was more of an exploratory thing to find the good veins of rock, or really small scale operations that didn't differ much from how local-scale mining was done from the bronze age on forward. Yeah, if those tunnels are too small, it's going to impede the mining process more than it saves time.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2014 19:40
|
|
|
Did the miners at least have room to turn around?
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2014 19:44
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:A lot of what I'm reading makes it look like the tiny tunnels was more of an exploratory thing to find the good veins of rock, or really small scale operations that didn't differ much from how local-scale mining was done from the bronze age on forward. Apparently there was a loving LOT of what we would consider open pit strip mining done by the Romans. They'd redirect local water sources to hydraulically wash away dirt etc. until they got down to the bedrock, then use thermal and hydraulic fracturing techniques to bust up the rock, then further break it down before going into more normal smelting and extraction operations. I haven't seen any specifics yet on how the big rocks -> little rocks step between the thermal cracking and smelting was done, though. That would make a lot more sense to me (and sounds a lot more Roman) than running inefficient death camps. I mean I know the work was harsh and dangerous, but open pit mining would leverage all the engineering and logistic capabilities of Roman society - while 2'x2' tunnelling would basically be the opposite of that.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2014 20:10
|
|
|
From what I understand, the current mining techniques used in Pakistan, Afghanistan, et cetera, are pretty close to the traditional ones they've been using for centuries. With the small addition of dynamite. Here's a couple trip reports which might be kinda interesting.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2014 20:49
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:Seems like just a lovely desertish landscape in Spain, but is actually the remains of mountains that the Romans obliterated during mining operations. This was like the ancient equivalent of a superfund site. Birds would drop out of the air dead from fumes coming out of mines. Jesus, people have talked before about how people back then encountering the Legions for the first time must have felt like they had run into an army of murder-bots or something, but imagine seeing this. In short: Big Willy Style posted:Sounds like loving Mordor.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2014 22:18
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:Jesus, people have talked before about how people back then encountering the Legions for the first time must have felt like they had run into an army of murder-bots or something, but imagine seeing this. In short: Rome is so fascinating to me because its both a Sauron like evil empire that conquers and exploits land with its army of armored killers, and also spread roads, aqueducts, education, stability, law, etc. For the Gauls Rome's advance was basically an apocalypse. For Syria it was pretty much an upgrade in every way, same for the parts of Greece that never revolted.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2014 22:51
|
|
|
WoodrowSkillson posted:Rome is so fascinating to me because its both a Sauron like evil empire that conquers and exploits land with its army of armored killers, and also spread roads, aqueducts, education, stability, law, etc. For the Gauls Rome's advance was basically an apocalypse. For Syria it was pretty much an upgrade in every way, same for the parts of Greece that never revolted. I took a Roman History 101 class in undergrad, and she showed us this clip at the beginning of the first class to sum it up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2014 23:04
|
|
|
euphronius posted:Best people are those dudes who sold their kids to slave mines. I think you could do this. You still can. PM me for more details.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2014 23:37
|
|
|
WoodrowSkillson posted:Rome is so fascinating to me because its both a Sauron like evil empire that conquers and exploits land with its army of armored killers, and also spread roads, aqueducts, education, stability, law, etc. For the Gauls Rome's advance was basically an apocalypse. For Syria it was pretty much an upgrade in every way, same for the parts of Greece that never revolted. Yup, that's part of it for me too. Romans were brutal tyrants cutting a swath of destruction and mayhem across their whole known world, but were also civilized and philosophical and often improved the lives of people immensely once they'd finished killing them. They're an interesting bunch of contradictions.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2014 02:52
|
|
|
Today I got a pamphlet in the mail advertising an exhibit of "Egyptian Wonders That Stunned the World" which seemed to be a collection of lectures. Naturally, since I like old things, I opened it and read one of the lecture descriptions: "A fascinating look at Iraq's ancient city of Babylon and its powerful king, Nebuchadnezzar, along with their predecessors the Sumerians. You will explore what archaeology has discovered in the last 150 years and how such discoveries have fulfilled 2,500 prophecies from the books of Daniel, Isaiah, and Jeremiah." I was intrigued up until the bolded part. Then I noticed that the lectures were held at a series of churches and that the pamphlet was from something called the Bible Mailing Service, which holds, or at least advertises, a number of religious revivals and the-rapture-is-coming seminars. (The other lectures advertised were the aforementioned Egyptian Wonders That Stunned the World, which doesn't have an advertised Bible tie-in other than claiming that Hatshepsut was the adoptive mother of Moses, "The Greatest Discoveries in the Land of Israel", and "Living Rocks from the Apocalypse".) I suppose this is ultimately unremarkable, but I was surprised that archaeological lectures are being used as a tool to evangelize.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2014 02:59
|
|
|
Tao Jones posted:I suppose this is ultimately unremarkable, but I was surprised that archaeological lectures are being used as a tool to evangelize. It's very common. It's also a happier world if you don't know about this. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2014 03:01
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:Yup, that's part of it for me too. Romans were brutal tyrants cutting a swath of destruction and mayhem across their whole known world, but were also civilized and philosophical and often improved the lives of people immensely once they'd finished killing them. They're an interesting bunch of contradictions. I've also found the mixture of outright xenophobia AND being a meritocracy fascinating. Foreigners and rural yokels (and plebs!) are absolutely inferior to glorious patrician Romans who can date their families back to the Gods... but if you're a proven soldier or politician who gets things done then you get respect and admiration right up until the moment you're no longer the flavor of the month.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2014 03:19
|
|
|
I think the inclusiveness might've actually contributed to that when it came to the different ethnic groups. Anyone can become a citizen by serving their state, so why aren't you? Obviously everyone would want to be a citizen, you must be doing something untoward if you aren't serving to become one of us. loving leech.  The meritocracy I think reflects a general Roman trait of being very, very practical.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2014 03:29
|
|
|
Tao Jones posted:Today I got a pamphlet in the mail advertising an exhibit of "Egyptian Wonders That Stunned the World" which seemed to be a collection of lectures. Naturally, since I like old things, I opened it and read one of the lecture descriptions: "A fascinating look at Iraq's ancient city of Babylon and its powerful king, Nebuchadnezzar, along with their predecessors the Sumerians. You will explore what archaeology has discovered in the last 150 years and how such discoveries have fulfilled 2,500 prophecies from the books of Daniel, Isaiah, and Jeremiah." e: also really loving weird comments like on the "unmistakably Jewish cast of the features" of some figures in Assyrian sculpture. ee: something that Ihave found interesting in this book is a theory (maybe widely accepted now? Iunno) that in the story of Jonah and the Whale the whale was some later screw-up in recording the name of Nineveh, which name means "Fish" and was a place where Jonah (or some dude) when to proselytize to the locals. communism bitch fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Aug 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2014 07:39
|
|
|
Yeah, there was a huge revival of that poo poo when the Assyrians and Hittites were rediscovered, since other than some Biblical references they'd disappeared from the historical record. Lots of crazies used that as proof the Bible was true and all the usual jive.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2014 08:28
|
|
|
quote:Lavish tomb buried for 2,100 years with gold and treasure discovered in China http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...na-9648755.html
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2014 15:08
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:
Find a good crack in a rock and jam wood stakes in it. Soak the area with water then wait over night.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2014 20:45
|
|
|
quote:In reports after the saga, writers alleged Liu Jian had engaged in bizarre behaviour, including having an orgy with 10 women in a tent above his father’s tomb. 2000 year old daddy issues 
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2014 22:27
|
|
|
LingcodKilla posted:Find a good crack in a rock and jam wood stakes in it. Soak the area with water then wait over night. Nah, I was referring to the step AFTER that. I guess I should have said medium -> small rocks. It was in response to the guy who hypothesized that they probably had water-driven crushing mills. I didn't find any info as to whether those were a thing yet or an invention of the middle ages; basically whether they had mills to speed up turning the rocks into gravel prior to smelting or if it was just slaves beating on them with hammers.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2014 22:32
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:Nah, I was referring to the step AFTER that. I guess I should have said medium -> small rocks. It was in response to the guy who hypothesized that they probably had water-driven crushing mills. I didn't find any info as to whether those were a thing yet or an invention of the middle ages; basically whether they had mills to speed up turning the rocks into gravel prior to smelting or if it was just slaves beating on them with hammers. I'd say slaves beating on them with hammers, with other slaves beating on them with canes in order to beat faster.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2014 22:50
|
|
|
Wikipedia says they did use trip hammers for crushing ore. They also had some pretty impressive waterwheel systems for bringing water out of mines. The medieval world would end up really expanding on all of this technology as they didn't have slaves to fall back on.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2014 23:12
|
|
|
What happened to the Roman slave system after the empire? Like, why did it decline in medieval Europe?
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2014 23:26
|
|
|
I never want to read laws about breadmakers again.quote:We command that sons of breadmakers who are left at a tender age shall be protected from the duty of breadmaking up to the twentieth year of their age. Suitable breadmakers shall be chosen as substitutes, indeed, at the risk of the entire guild, in the place of such pupils, under the condition, of course, that after the pupils have completed the twentieth year of their age, they shall be forced to undertake the duties of their father's compulsory public service. Nevertheless, those persons who appear to have been chosen as substitutes in their place shall remain breadmakers. quote:No breadmaker shall be allowed by the presentation of a supplication to the Emperor to impetrate permission to escape his compulsory public service by subterfuge. quote:If any breadmaker should be made a Senator, he is granted the choice that he shall surrender either his desire for property or his membership in the Most Distinguished Order. But if such persons should be desirous of their high rank, they shall be forced to provide suitable substitutes from their own resources, to the same amount of property for breadmaking as they themselves furnished while they were breadmakers. Understanbly breadmaking was serious business back in the day.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2014 00:45
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:2000 year old daddy issues Keith Richards ain't got poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2014 00:54
|
|
|
karl fungus posted:What happened to the Roman slave system after the empire? Like, why did it decline in medieval Europe? I believe by the end there really wasn't all that much "slaves" left compared to the Principate days, but in general if you weren't in the city everyone just became serfs and peasants which is pretty much slavery in a different way. edit: in the west; the east just kept on truckin' owning humans like JC don't give a gently caress
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2014 02:14
|
|
|
Berke Negri posted:edit: in the west; the east just kept on truckin' owning humans like JC don't give a gently caress Well, the argument could be made that JC really didn't give a gently caress. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2014 02:28
|
|
|
Octy posted:I never want to read laws about breadmakers again. Behold the great method of my city to punish breadmakers who sell bread with the wrong weight in medieval times:  They'll get dipped into the water or into a cesspit.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2014 05:53
|
|
|
Is that even medieval? The fashion of the audience in the foreground is giving me a very 18th Century vibe, though I wouldn't be surprised if it's a recreation of an event that legend told them definitely happened.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2014 06:10
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
Jeoh posted:It's 251AD, let's talk about Persia since they're about to invade. Better Than the Ask Me About Ancient History Thread, Khosrau Posted This 
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2014 07:09
|
|
|
Berke Negri posted:I believe by the end there really wasn't all that much "slaves" left compared to the Principate days, but in general if you weren't in the city everyone just became serfs and peasants which is pretty much slavery in a different way. Slavery didn't go anywhere in the west either. According to the Domesday Book (1086), more than 10% of the people in England were slaves. Lewd Mangabey posted:Well, the argument could be made that JC really didn't give a gently caress. No need for the . Early Christianity didn't oppose slavery.PittTheElder posted:Is that even medieval? The fashion of the audience in the foreground is giving me a very 18th Century vibe, though I wouldn't be surprised if it's a recreation of an event that legend told them definitely happened. The picture isn't medieval, but punishment for wrong weights were common in Middle Ages. "Baker's dozen" came from bakers selling 13 loaves of bread instead of 12, because if for some reason some were light, the extra one would make up for it and the baker wouldn't be punished. Hogge Wild fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Aug 6, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2014 07:14
|
|
|
Hogge Wild posted:Slavery didn't go anywhere in the west either. According to the Domesday Book (1086), more than 10% of the people in England were slaves. That was more of a Germanic tradition. How about France, Italy, northern Spain etc.? Weren't the Normans shocked by the slavery in England actually? Implying that they had stopped in France due to Romanization. Party In My Diapee fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Aug 6, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2014 13:24
|
|
|
Back To 99 posted:That was more of a Germanic tradition. How about France, Italy, northern Spain etc.? I don't know about those places but I also would like to hear about them. William the Conqueror only banned overseas slave trade, but he didn't free the slaves.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2014 13:39
|
|
|
karl fungus posted:What happened to the Roman slave system after the empire? Like, why did it decline in medieval Europe? They became serfs in feudalism.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2014 13:45
|
|
|
Octy posted:Understanbly breadmaking was serious business back in the day. No pressure, Bakers' Guild. Egyptians were forbidden from joining the legions for the same reason. No one particularly wanted to be a mud flat farmer, but the grain supply demanded it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2014 13:46
|
|
|
euphronius posted:They became serfs in feudalism. Isn't serfdom distinct from Roman slavery, though?
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2014 14:23
|
|
|
Whatever you want to call it. They were peasants tied to their land (latifundia). And could not move or change careers.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2014 14:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 15:14 |
|
|
physeter posted:Egyptians were forbidden from joining the legions for the same reason. No one particularly wanted to be a mud flat farmer, but the grain supply demanded it. Did any significant grain farming continue in Italy after the establishment of Egypt as a province?
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2014 14:40
|
|