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Tres Burritos posted:"An investor is a person who allocates capital with the expectation of a financial return." Beat me to it, you bastard. Potsticker posted:I dunno, he seems pretty invested with both his time and feelings as well. I'm afraid the investment has to be measurable, or at least worth something. Can't imagine it even making it into Intangible accounts at this rate.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:11
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Arkanomen posted:The about face on the refunds policy was a pretty glaring example. Starbound development funds being used on other games is another violation of trust between investor/investee. Well here we are. By taking some of their profits and investing in their business by publishing other games, Chucklefish is directly violating the trust of their playerbase. That money wasn't for you to SPEND, Chucklefish! It was for you to give right back to us, through the game! You're not an investor. You're a customer. You bought a product in advance, and you'll get it. If you bought a hammer at the hardware store, would you expect the tool company to put your purchase money to work for you in addition to the product you receive? Or would you just expect a loving hammer?
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Aug 8, 2014 19:13
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Arkanomen posted:I got a game yes, but it could best be described as a "bait and switch". Based on promotional material, images, videos etc, the game delivered did not match these expectations nor was any clear reason given why things were so off base. It's clear now that issue lies with the, at best described,inexperience of the development team. What part of "this game is not finished" did you miss? Chucklefish is releasing nightly builds which means that somebody, somewhere, is working on the game.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:14
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Arkanomen posted:I got a game yes, but it could best be described as a "bait and switch".
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Aug 8, 2014 19:15
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WarpedNaba posted:I'm afraid the investment has to be measurable, or at least worth something. Can't imagine it even making it into Intangible accounts at this rate. WarpedNaba - "A person's time has no value." His time spent playing the product is measured by steam and we can measure his time invested whinging in this thread by post times.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:15
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Pro-tip: Add Arkanomen to your ignore list.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:15
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Arkanomen posted:I don't post there, but thanks for trying! You should though! Would fit right in! Edit: because you are an idiot
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Aug 8, 2014 19:16
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Potsticker posted:WarpedNaba - "A person's time has no value." I love playing games and making dumb posts about them on the internet, but if the time I spent doing either of those things was actually worth something tangible I'd never touch either activity again.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:18
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I think I actually preferred when we were talking about how few hours we have on Earth. I racked up 600 or so hours in Morrowind.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:18
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mollygos posted:I think I actually preferred when we were talking about how few hours we have on Earth. 600 hours that could have gone into Starbound development?! You...you n'wah
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Aug 8, 2014 19:19
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Tin Tim posted:So what you are saying is that every single cent and dollar has to be spent on Starbound, instead of spreading probably excess cash into another product so that the company can realize a long term business that goes beyond releasing this single game? I am no business man though, so I could be wrong on this. The money can be spent how they choose as long as it is spent in good faith towards the development of the game. The backer money wasn't given to Chucklefish for Chucklefish, it was given to develop starbound. Spending time and money on other projects with that small a team takes away resources from a lagging project. I am not ignorant to multi-tasking and investing profit into the business but for the amount given and produced work, it doesn't add up. Tres Burritos posted:"An investor is a person who allocates capital with the expectation of a financial return." Captain Oblivious posted:You're using a lot of words but not saying much. The phases don't tell us anything specific, that's correct. The game has been published, in early release form. What exactly is your complaint? That this is taking too long? Promotion material such as the roadmap, steam store images, early dev blog posts. Don't know what's easily about that. My main complaints are that what was delivered isn't what was advertised and that everything I'm seeing points to it never being delivered or at least anytime soon. I don't think the starbound that I backed will be the starbound that's being developed. That's fine but it would be nice to see the dev flowchart to know what it's going to be in the future. I didn't back a mystery box! There were advertised feature that are simply gone such as radiation and planet surveys. All of these had "screencaps" showing these as implemented features!
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Aug 8, 2014 19:20
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mollygos posted:I think I actually preferred when we were talking about how few hours we have on Earth. 972
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Aug 8, 2014 19:20
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Arkanomen posted:The money can be spent how they choose as long as it is spent in good faith towards the development of the game. The backer money wasn't given to Chucklefish for Chucklefish, it was given to develop starbound. Spending time and money on other projects with that small a team takes away resources from a lagging project. I am not ignorant to multi-tasking and investing profit into the business but for the amount given and produced work, it doesn't add up. I didn't read anything you wrote and nobody cares. Either talk about Starbound or shut the gently caress up. Nobody cares if you think you are an investor, you have been the victim of bait and switch, or anything.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:22
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 Such a bully, Tiy 
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Aug 8, 2014 19:22
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I'm tempted to re-sub to WoW and do a /played just because I'm a masochist. The hammer analogy falls a bit flat though Vib, it's like I've gone to buy a hammer and gotten a handle with the promise of an awesome hammer down the line. Yet a year later I'm still sat with the handle wondering when the gently caress the head is coming. However unlike Arkanomen, instead of barging in to the store and making a scene, I've quietly decided to buy a hammer elsewhere and not shop there again.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:23
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Magmarashi posted:I love playing games and making dumb posts about them on the internet, but if the time I spent doing either of those things was actually worth something tangible I'd never touch either activity again. Surprise, your time is worth something! Whether you're enjoying a hobby, earning a paycheque, or taking care of essential needs. If you feel your valuable time could be better spent enriching your life with additional funds, learning or entertainment, perhaps a little introspection is necessary and you can make a positive change in your life!
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Aug 8, 2014 19:24
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Arkanomen posted:Nightly builds are interesting as a way to show work, not progress or long term development. The dev doc would have been an excellent way to demonstrate that the game is not off track and development is not aimless. Wha? Why would a flow chart do more to allay your fears than any of the developers taking about their work, or the nightly builds showing what they'd finished each day?
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Aug 8, 2014 19:25
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AceClown posted:I'm tempted to re-sub to WoW and do a /played just because I'm a masochist. And then later when you DO get the head you'll be like 'oh yeah, I forgot about this hammer, I should hit stuff with it'. That's why I don't understand why people get so upset - I assume since you bought it its the kind of game you like, it's obviously still being worked on, and when it's done you'll still get to play it because you already bought it.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:26
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Ernie Muppari posted:Wha? It wouldn't, he would still find something to complain about. He has no idea what he is talking about or even what he really wants, put him on ignore and have a happier day.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:29
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dog kisser posted:And then later when you DO get the head you'll be like 'oh yeah, I forgot about this hammer, I should hit stuff with it'. That's why I don't understand why people get so upset - I assume since you bought it its the kind of game you like, it's obviously still being worked on, and when it's done you'll still get to play it because you already bought it. Because it's not done in their artificially-created timespan of when it would be "acceptable" for it to be finished, duh.  (You mean programmers aren't just robots you shove coins into and code comes out of?!)
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Aug 8, 2014 19:29
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Vib Rib posted:You guys remember the other day when we were talking about how some people expect all money that comes from an indie game to go back into it? That every dollar they get from customers ("INVESTORS") has to be somehow recycled into the product itself and returned to the player, as though the devs are bound to return all the money they make right back to the playerbase, often by means of "just hire more coders"? And that if the money goes into anything else -- personal profit, business investments with other games, rent for a studio, cars, meals, entertainment, anything -- people would get mad? I gave X amount of dollars with the expectation that it would go to producing a new hammer which I would receive in the future. I was also given a list of features that it currently had as well as some conditions. I accepted all of this. The first prototype came late and was missing many of the advertised features (Hoytl cities, water planets, planet survey, quests, stores). I am neither a customer nor investor and yes I accept the risks associated. I understand there are setbacks and changes but I also except the to be upfront about delays, missing features etc. I have seen none of this demonstrated. I didn't sign a contract yes but it still mean so can feel screwed and miffed when told to "deal with it" Leadthumb posted:Pro-tip: Add Arkanomen to your ignore list. Have I offended you personally or do you just dislike a dissenting opinion? goodness posted:+1 At least the other people in the thread have the decency to discuss with me. Have I personally offended you in some way?
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Aug 8, 2014 19:29
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Arkanomen posted:I also except the to be upfront about delays, missing features etc. I have seen none of this demonstrated.  So are you just... ignoring the Starbound website? Or did your mommy content block it because you wouldn't stop shrieking about those drat thieves at Chucklefish?
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Aug 8, 2014 19:31
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A hammer is also a crappy analogy because computer programs are dramatically different things from hammers. Hammers are also a technology we've basically perfected after thousands of years. There isn't much creativity in hammers, either. They're also not really meant for entertainment; they are a tool. Starbound is dramatically more complex than a hammer. If you must use the hammer analogy it's more like "hey we all know everybody already has toy hammers that wants them but we have a new idea for a hammer design and already started it. But we need money to finish the design so help fund us so we can make a totally unique toy hammer. We'll send everybody the finished hammer when it's done." There's also the difference in that sending hammers is more expensive then sending software. Seriously, comparing hammers and computer programs is pretty dumb.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:31
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mollygos posted:I think I actually preferred when we were talking about how few hours we have on Earth. I still go back to that game more than Oblivion or even Skyrim. The fact that the world's just one solid peice and you aren't zoning around towns just made it feel like such a better game. Plus that layout allowed for things like flight and freakishly strong jumping even without making various hilariously overpowered enchantments/spells, or abusing alchemy to put your stats in to the millions for tems of millions of minutes. I'm glad Dungeon Fighter Online isn't listed in Steam anymore. The last number I remember seeing listed for it was over 700 hours played, and that was only the time spent via Steam. And it's all gone now, because Nexon sucks and wiped all their data so even if Neople were to reopen it in the west we have to start over. 
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Aug 8, 2014 19:32
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Potsticker posted:
Not to devolve into semantics, but usually time is measured at the overhead rate (And it must be chosen as the driving overhead rate) via labour hours or otherwise billable hours, it doesn't really factor into anything other than Management Accounting. Which is not involved with investment/equity matters unless the company's Going Concern is in doubt. The main issue with this fellow is that what's over his head ain't overhead, it's business in general. Why am I doing this at 3 AM  Delaio posted:
Bully me harder pls :bigtran:
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Aug 8, 2014 19:32
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Arkanomen posted:Have I offended you personally or do you just dislike a dissenting opinion? I think part of the issue is this: what do you want us to do about it? We're not upset because we don't feel wronged, and you can't CONVINCE us that we've been wronged. So....?
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Aug 8, 2014 19:32
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Arkanomen posted:The money can be spent how they choose as long as it is spent in good faith towards the development of the game. The backer money wasn't given to Chucklefish for Chucklefish, it was given to develop starbound. Spending time and money on other projects with that small a team takes away resources from a lagging project. I am not ignorant to multi-tasking and investing profit into the business but for the amount given and produced work, it doesn't add up. I don't think this is how kickstarter works at all, bud.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:33
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Ernie Muppari posted:Wha? Nightlies show daily progress and active development. Yes! This is great! Development Plan would have shown what they are working towards long term and how the game will take shape. What will starbound be? What will quests be like, trade, professions. These are all things hinted at and briefly touched on by the devs in articles but something concrete would be very helpful. What is their vision? Eonwe posted:I didn't read anything you wrote and nobody cares. Either talk about Starbound or shut the gently caress up. Nobody cares if you think you are an investor, you have been the victim of bait and switch, or anything. So you did read my post, but had nothing to say. I am talking about starbound and expressing concern about where development is headed. Or ami I not allowed to care about the game? People asked why I felt stilted, so I explained. Relax.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:34
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Arkanomen posted:Or ami I not allowed to care about the game? You're certainly allowed to care. Hell, I care about the game - that's why I still follow Tiy and Molly and etc. on Twitter and follow this thread, and follow developer updates and stuff. Honestly, you're even allowed to make up imagined slights from nothing like you're so aptly demonstrating in this thread. Nothing any of us can do can stop that. However, we're also similarly allowed to call out your bullshit in whatever manner we see fit, be it derisive mocking or actual attempts at dialogue (which most people are tired of because past attempts at reasonable dialogue end up in howler monkey-level poo poo throwing by the person with the imagined slights).
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Aug 8, 2014 19:37
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Oh my god why are you people getting this upset and arguing this much about a 20 dollar spaceman lego video game.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:37
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Magmarashi posted:It wouldn't, he would still find something to complain about. He has no idea what he is talking about or even what he really wants, put him on ignore and have a happier day. Don't tell me how to play this game! Arkanomen posted:Nightlies show daily progress and active development. Yes! This is great! So it's not so much that you are hopes are dead because Chucklyfine lied as it is you want to know everything about what the game will eventually be right now?
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Aug 8, 2014 19:39
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Kyrosiris posted:
Devs mostly communicate through other outlets and have said this outright. dog kisser posted:I think part of the issue is this: what do you want us to do about it? We're not upset because we don't feel wronged, and you can't CONVINCE us that we've been wronged. So....? That is true. My main concern is that development is unfocused and somewhat off the rails. Nightlies show work, yes but to what end?
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Aug 8, 2014 19:39
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President Ark posted:Oh my god why are you people getting this upset and arguing this much about a 20 dollar spaceman lego video game. Because now... (*pumps shotgun) it's personal.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:39
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Arkanomen posted:Nightlies show daily progress and active development. Yes! This is great! Arkanoman, I do agree with you in a lot of points, I'm disappointed with the game so far too, but dude, you really have to chill over a $15 early access game. The problem with them showing a development plan is that when things don't go to plan or they hit a roadblock it gets screenshotted to hell and the internet cries foul. They have to look at the lesser of two evils.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:40
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President Ark posted:Oh my god why are you people getting this upset and arguing this much about a 20 dollar spaceman lego video game. We're not. We are getting upset at a manchild who is though.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:40
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This argument has been entertaining but I'm expecting some updates on how exactly it's going to improve within the next few posts. It's been several pages of posts without an improvement to this argument and I'm beginning to feel like I'm part of a "switch baiting" situation.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:40
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Ernie Muppari posted:Don't tell me how to play this game! Final draft may vary but right now I feel there is no vision and the whole project is a mess. The "design document" would have proved it either way. It doesn't take a genius to see that development up till now has been a poo poo show. PantsBandit posted:This argument has been entertaining but I'm expecting some updates on how exactly it's going to improve within the next few posts. It's been several pages of posts without an improvement to this argument and I'm beginning to feel like I'm part of a "switch baiting" situation. I would love to know how the game will improve but we don't have a design document so who the gently caress knows. Arkanomen fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Aug 8, 2014 |
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Aug 8, 2014 19:41
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PantsBandit posted:This argument has been entertaining but I'm expecting some updates on how exactly it's going to improve within the next few posts. It's been several pages of posts without an improvement to this argument and I'm beginning to feel like I'm part of a "switch baiting" situation. I invested in something awful, and now I have buyers remorse.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:42
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I bought this game for $15 after watching some gameplay videos. I played it for ~75 hours and got enjoyment out of it. Fun rate is $0.2/hr. I bought BF2 for $60 when it first came out. I played it for ~275 hours and got enjoyment out of it. Fun rate is $0.22/hr. Did I do something wrong by not considering my potential fun rate before buying? By my standards, it looks like Starbound was a cheaper thrill and a smart way to spend my money! DadWilly fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Aug 8, 2014 |
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Aug 8, 2014 19:42
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mollygos posted:I think I actually preferred when we were talking about how few hours we have on Earth. Haha half of that was modding, wasn't it. You have spent 0.12% of your feeble existence solely on Morrowind. Leadthumb posted:I invested in something awful, and now I have buyers remorse. GBS was a blatant bait and switch.
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Aug 8, 2014 19:43
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