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The Insect Court posted:edit: Out of curiosity, where did you stumble across that picture? I did an image search for it to try to find an article which put it in some actual context, and the other sites where I found it were: The first few pages on google are mostly twitter links, but no, the most likely source is a white supremacy site or a libertarian article from last year. That's a pretty rational thing to imply. Meanwhile: Holy poo poo
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Aug 10, 2014 00:03
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caution on the above link, it's exactly the sort of site you'd guess it was from the domain name
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senae posted:The first few pages on google are mostly twitter links, but no, the most likely source is a white supremacy site or a libertarian article from last year. That's a pretty rational thing to imply. He somehow has figured out that he can call people anti-semitic with impunity so long as he is "smart" about it in his own estimation.
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Aug 10, 2014 00:05
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emanresu tnuocca posted:
The sign is too small to be serious, so I'm guessing it's a troll. Tezzor posted:Israelis are racist belligerent scum. It's a factual statement based on the available evidence, there's nothing vile about it. Many of them are. Not all of them, though. There are moderates that can be negotiated with, and in any event, it's good to keep a diplomatic channel open so that future pressure can be leveraged productively.
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Aug 10, 2014 00:08
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emanresu tnuocca posted:
There is clearly something very wrong with the world right now. On the other hand, it hasn't collapsed on itself in a black hole of irony, so maybe it's just a troll.
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Aug 10, 2014 00:11
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Come on, you guys already heard of Knesset members talking about the need to put Palestinians in concentration camps. Some dude-bro thinking to himself "heh, this'll get the lefties riled up" and gluing a piece of paper to a popsicle stick isn't something new.
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Aug 10, 2014 00:15
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FRINGE posted:
No, he's a troll.
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Aug 10, 2014 00:20
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Absurd Alhazred posted:The sign is too small to be serious, so I'm guessing it's a troll. The vast majority of them are. The moderates are less numerous than people who believe we faked the moon landing and even less socially acceptable and politically relevant. Changing Israel will come from shaming it, severely damaging its economy, and breaking its capacity for aggressive force, not by relying on its tiny internal percentage of complicit, do-nothing liberals to change the majority's mind about their being monstrous via retweets. In addition to being the more likely successful tactic, it also has the added bonus of being what Israel and its people are long past deserving.
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Aug 10, 2014 00:20
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awesmoe posted:No, he's a troll.
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Aug 10, 2014 00:21
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awesmoe posted:No, he's a troll. At what point does the line between gimmick troll and serious poster blur i feel like it happens when they're still doing it 2 years later
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Aug 10, 2014 00:25
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senae posted:The first few pages on google are mostly twitter links, but no, the most likely source is a white supremacy site or a libertarian article from last year. That's a pretty rational thing to imply. On Bing image search, those were the results I got. If it's been making the rounds on Twitter then that's a more likely source for FRINGE, although it could have been avoided if he had sourced the image but perhaps that's too high a standard to hope for from a post where he also calls me a secret Jew subversive. Tezzor posted:The vast majority of them are. The moderates are less numerous than people who believe we faked the moon landing and even less socially acceptable and politically relevant. Changing Israel will come from shaming it, severely damaging its economy, and breaking its capacity for aggressive force, not by relying on its tiny internal percentage of complicit, do-nothing liberals to change the majority's mind about their being monstrous via retweets. In addition to being the more likely successful tactic, it also has the added bonus of being what Israel and its people are long past deserving. So they should be subject to collective punishment?
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Aug 10, 2014 00:34
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MrBims posted:Come on, you guys already heard of Knesset members talking about the need to put Palestinians in concentration camps. Some dude-bro thinking to himself "heh, this'll get the lefties riled up" and gluing a piece of paper to a popsicle stick isn't something new. #notalldudebros  But yeah, obviously. Being aware of the parallel and doing it out of spite to rile up the left is what people mean by troll. Doesn't make it OK, but it's less bad than the alternative explanation that someone, a Jewish someone at that, arrived at that particular wording independently and completely oblivious to its previous use.
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Aug 10, 2014 00:35
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Tezzor posted:The vast majority of them are. The moderates are less numerous than people who believe we faked the moon landing and even less socially acceptable and politically relevant. Changing Israel will come from shaming it, severely damaging its economy, and breaking its capacity for aggressive force, not by relying on its tiny internal percentage of complicit, do-nothing liberals to change the majority's mind about their being monstrous via retweets. In addition to being the more likely successful tactic, it also has the added bonus of being what Israel and its people are long past deserving. That's why I cited leveraging future pressure. In case you had forgotten, hi, I'm Absurd Alhazred, I'm an Israeli-American, I've been posting about the racism and insularity of the Israeli public, as well as criminal acts and policies that they have either condoned or actively supported since the first few pages of this thread, I think, and I am under no illusions about how liberals are going to be changing it from within if you just give them some room and time (and I had an argument with an Israeli liberal just a few years about that, when he complained about a letter to the editor in which I asked Americans to push Israel to stop the Occupation). But given the appropriate outside pressure, it's important to keep channels open to people who do have even a limited constituency inside of there so they can perhaps lead the response to this pressure. That doesn't happen if you're calling all of them (all of us?) racist belligerent scum.
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Aug 10, 2014 00:36
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The Insect Court posted:
That is how things work on a national level. Not all South Africans were apartheid supporters, but they had to be punished to or you wouldn't actually be accomplishing anything. Absurd Alhazred posted:That's why I cited leveraging future pressure. In case you had forgotten, hi, I'm Absurd Alhazred, I'm an Israeli-American, I've been posting about the racism and insularity of the Israeli public, as well as criminal acts and policies that they have either condoned or actively supported since the first few pages of this thread, I think, and I am under no illusions about how liberals are going to be changing it from within if you just give them some room and time (and I had an argument with an Israeli liberal just a few years about that, when he complained about a letter to the editor in which I asked Americans to push Israel to stop the Occupation). But given the appropriate outside pressure, it's important to keep channels open to people who do have even a limited constituency inside of there so they can perhaps lead the response to this pressure. That doesn't happen if you're calling all of them (all of us?) racist belligerent scum. I wouldn't take it that personally. Its no different then when the American south does something racist and they call them southern racists scum, it doesn't apply to everyone its just easier than typing out a disclaimer after every post. CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Aug 10, 2014 |
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Aug 10, 2014 00:37
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The Insect Court posted:On Bing image search, those were the results I got. If it's been making the rounds on Twitter then that's a more likely source for FRINGE, although it could have been avoided if he had sourced the image but perhaps that's too high a standard to hope for from a post where he also calls me a secret Jew subversive. That Hasbara thing was reported by Israeli newspapers. Hebrew, but maybe google translate will do the job: http://www.calcalist.co.il/internet/articles/0,7340,L-3319543,00.html
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Aug 10, 2014 00:38
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emanresu tnuocca posted:That Hasbara thing was reported by Israeli newspapers. The Insect Court posted:On Bing image search, those were the results I got. If it's been making the rounds on Twitter then that's a more likely source for FRINGE, although it could have been avoided if he had sourced the image but perhaps that's too high a standard to hope for from a post where he also calls me a secret Jew subversive. Since that image has been in the thread several times across hundreds of pages and you suddenly are interested in explaining how the person who re-posted it is crazy. The Insect Court posted:You are no doubt aware that classic anti-Semitic tropes involve secret or illicit Jewish control of world governments and the secret manipulation of world events, and that Jews are bloodthirsty, deceitful, and traitors to their countries. The Insect Court posted:So, according to you the Zionists in both America and in Israel proper are exercising near-total control over Washington The Insect Court posted:You do believe that Zionists control American policy The Insect Court posted:Irony is watching the exact same posters who wailed and beat their breasts over the death of innocent Gazans now scramble to justify The Insect Court posted:If you're hinting at some sort of conspiracy at play, then the help you need is not the sort I can provide. The Insect Court posted:pulling out of context quotations from some kind of evil_jew_quotes.doc file. The Insect Court posted:Before getting yourself worked up into a lather over this The Insect Court posted:I would disagree with your characterization of mainline Judaism as a fake religion that mainly exists to kill and steal poo poo. FRINGE posted:They are frequently aware, but repeating the same explanations of your misunderstanding and occasionally your crazy thinking is intended to have an effect on the audience.
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Aug 10, 2014 00:53
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Tezzor posted:Israelis are racist belligerent scum. It's a factual statement based on the available evidence, there's nothing vile about it. As soon as becomes acceptable to acknowledge this in respectable company, Israel is in trouble. I mean if you start to see "Isreali" used as the rear end in a top hat in jokes on mainstream TV in a similar way to white South Africans in the 80's, it will be embarrassing and horribly unsocial to publicly defend Israel's action. Polite people will roll their eyes and walk away at dinner parties. (These dinner parties are imaginary but it's how I image fancy people hang out together.) It then becomes a vote loser. Once that happens I really don't know what Israel might do.
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Aug 10, 2014 00:58
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Is there some list of every more tragic thing I have to care about before it's morally acceptable for me to care about Gaza?
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Aug 10, 2014 01:04
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Belome posted:Is there some list of every more tragic thing I have to care about before it's morally acceptable for me to care about Gaza? It starts with this poor kitty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpqiHchsbE0
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Aug 10, 2014 01:08
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bpower posted:As soon as becomes acceptable to acknowledge this in respectable company, Israel is in trouble. I mean if you start to see "Isreali" used as the rear end in a top hat in jokes on mainstream TV in a similar way to white South Africans in the 80's, it will be embarrassing and horribly unsocial to publicly defend Israel's action. Polite people will roll their eyes and walk away at dinner parties. (These dinner parties are imaginary but it's how I image fancy people hang out together.) It then becomes a vote loser. Yeah, but will that ever happen? South Africa never had the level of political influence that Israel could exert with its little finger
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Aug 10, 2014 01:08
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Absurd Alhazred posted:That's why I cited leveraging future pressure. In case you had forgotten, hi, I'm Absurd Alhazred, I'm an Israeli-American, I've been posting about the racism and insularity of the Israeli public, as well as criminal acts and policies that they have either condoned or actively supported since the first few pages of this thread, I think, and I am under no illusions about how liberals are going to be changing it from within if you just give them some room and time (and I had an argument with an Israeli liberal just a few years about that, when he complained about a letter to the editor in which I asked Americans to push Israel to stop the Occupation). But given the appropriate outside pressure, it's important to keep channels open to people who do have even a limited constituency inside of there so they can perhaps lead the response to this pressure. That doesn't happen if you're calling all of them (all of us?) racist belligerent scum. Of course it can. It doesn't "close any channels." If the existing Israeli left is really likely to choose to respond to international shame by whining #notallisraelis and cutting themselves off from the meanies then they are somehow even more self-aborbed and worthless than otherwise estimated and should be regarded as so irrelevant as to not be worth considering.
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Aug 10, 2014 01:13
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Tezzor posted:Of course it can. It doesn't "close any channels." If the existing Israeli left is really likely to choose to respond to international shame by whining #notallisraelis and cutting themselves off from the meanies then they are somehow even more self-aborbed and worthless than otherwise estimated and should be regarded as so irrelevant as to not be worth considering. Some people react poorly to being called racist shitheads despite their best efforts.  Also, this kind of blanket statement may mislead others into thinking there is absolutely nobody worth talking to, which I don't think makes for effective policy.
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Aug 10, 2014 01:15
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The Insect Court posted:So they should be subject to collective punishment? Don't feed the troll I know, but this is for the lurkers: If you get huffy at the idea of perfectly nice Israelis regrettably being inconvenienced by hypothetical sanctions aimed towards a volatile, hard-right violent Israeli government for its spasmodic, disproportionate lashing out in response to attacks from a hostage population, resulting in the deaths of one and a half thousand civilians, and possibly hundreds or even thousands more as the rest begin to starve and die from treatable injuries no longer able to be healed due to the collapse of the healthcare system because of IDF bombs-- Why haven't you gotten huffy about the very real and very brutal collective punishment visited upon the Gazans?
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Aug 10, 2014 01:17
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quote:The following infographic details members of families killed in 36 incidents where civilian homes were bombed or shelled. In these incidents, 251 people were killed, including 55 women, 114 minors, and 11 people over the age of 60. Roll the mouse over the houses for more details. http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/201407_families
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Aug 10, 2014 01:22
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murphyslaw posted:Don't feed the troll I know, but this is for the lurkers: Simple response: I have. Repeatedly. In this thread. You even quoted me doing it. Simple request: Will you unreservedly condemn indiscriminate acts of terrorist violence against Israel and Israelis? Because if you've done so I've not seen it.
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Aug 10, 2014 01:33
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I feel like generalizing all Israeli's ends up severing ties from Israeli Liberals who could provide a far more damning account of what Israel is doing than any other outsider. I'm all for getting pissed at the 90+% that support what the IDF is doing, but that 5-10% that don't can make excellent allies in the fight to publicize what Israel is and has been doing. It was rather apt when someone compared it to making blanket statements about the american south; there's a -lot- of racist assholes in tiny towns that care more about school football than human rights, but there's also a lot of minorities and liberals who didn't choose to be poor and southern.
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Aug 10, 2014 01:33
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The Insect Court posted:Simple response: I have. Repeatedly. In this thread. You even quoted me doing it. So you agree that the IDF's conduct in Gaza has been disproportionate and excessive, in a way that amounts to war crimes, and that the reasons for its periodic, indiscriminate attacks on Gaza must be dealt with so it does not happen again, and part of dealing with it is to end the occupation? The Insect Court posted:Simple request: Will you unreservedly condemn indiscriminate acts of terrorist violence against Israel and Israelis? Because if you've done so I've not seen it. I don't think you've paid attention to my posts because every other drat thing I've said about Hamas has been that they're a terrorist group that's committing war crimes and that is Bad, as a preface to some other thing. That's as close to unreserved condemnation of indiscriminate acts of terrorist violence as you're going to get. Now why don't you unreservedly condemn the IDF's indiscriminate acts of terrorist violence some more? Who knows, it might make some people take you seriously. You want that right?
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Aug 10, 2014 01:41
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The Insect Court posted:Simple request: Will you unreservedly condemn indiscriminate acts of terrorist violence against Israel and Israelis? Because if you've done so I've not seen it. Why would anybody do that? If you want an honest debate you'll need to define things more precisely. Your definition of "indiscriminate acts of terrorist violence against Israel and Israelis" might be different for others. I suspect it means to you "any and all armed resistance to the occupation".
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Aug 10, 2014 01:43
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Neurolimal posted:I feel like generalizing all Israeli's ends up severing ties from Israeli Liberals who could provide a far more damning account of what Israel is doing than any other outsider. I'm all for getting pissed at the 90+% that support what the IDF is doing, but that 5-10% that don't can make excellent allies in the fight to publicize what Israel is and has been doing. Its like saying Americas war-mongering foreign affairs and internal police/prison policies make it a lovely nation. This is simply true, and does not reflect on every American. On the other hand, Israel does currently have an additional PR problem wherein more people support genocide there than Germans did during the height of the Nazi Party. bpower posted:Why would anybody do that? The end argument is that the Palestinians should lay down and die, and once Israel is done with the killing any survivors they are "duty bound" to starve. Its the "crafty" way to defend racially motivated genocide. Well, as crafty as TIC can get.
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Aug 10, 2014 01:50
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A curious new development: residents of Nahal Oz and Ein HaShlosha, Kibbutzes right next to the Gaza strip, are refusing to go back because they do not feel safe there. --- Nahal Oz residents refuse to return home: 'It's too dangerous' Residents of the closest Israeli community to the Gaza border demand more bomb-shelters built, protection against tunnel and rocket threat. The residents of Nahal Oz are tired of being Hamas' hostages. They've been living as refugees for over a month, with some 25 families staying at the "Hadassah Neurim" youth aliyah village in the Nataniya area while others are staying in kibbutz Revivim and kibbutz Dorot, and won't return home until the rocket fire stops completely. "What did we go on Operation Protective Edge for, if nothing has changed? We won't go home like this," Yenina Barnea, one of Nahal Oz's residents, said. At the moment, only around 50 people out of 100 families remain in the kibbutz, all of which have jobs that require their presence. The rest, especially families with children, have left. Over the weekend, most of the Gaza border communities' residents returned to their homes, even though the Gaza operation was still ongoing as was the rocket fire. Dozens of rockets and mortar shells were fired during the day, at least one of them exploding in Eshkol. The kibbutz residents announced that they will not return to their homes until they receive the security measures they were promised. For now, they are staying at "Hadassah Neurim" and recently they even opened a makeshift kindergarten there, which houses 21 children every day with a volunteer teacher. The school-aged children stay in the youth village's rooms and take part in various activities. The kibbutz residents demand the government to provide them with full protection against both the tunnel and mortar threats. In addition, they demand that the state restores structures IDF soldiers used and stayed at during the ground operation to their previous condition, something that has not been done yet. The troops stayed in three kindergartens and the cleaning company that was hired to restore them to their original condition refuses to send its employees to Nahal Oz because of the security situation. This means the kindergartens in the kibbutz won't be able to take in the returning children. Another demand the residents raised was constructing more safe rooms and bomb shelters in the kibbutz, which is the closest Israeli community to the Gaza border. The three kindergartens, for example, are not fully bomb-protected and in the event of a rocket or mortar hit, shrapnel could penetrate into the educational facilities. The residents also want a better solution found to the short and insufficient warning time before a mortar falls. "There is a lot of uncertainty alongside frustration. We're a kibbutz close to the fence, and there's no way we could have a routine here (like that). If that is the case, we won't come back to the same reality we've been living in for 14 years," Nahal Oz resident Yenina Barnea said. "The education system (in the kibbutz) is not working. Hundreds of soldiers were staying there (in educational facilities), they hired a cleaning company and the manager of the company barred the workers from coming because it's dangerous. So the kindergartens are not clean. They're also not bomb-protected. We're waiting for the construction of a new bomb-protected kindergarten to which we could move the kids temporarily," she added. Barnea also noted that some of the teachers who work at the kindergartens, residents of the area, are away because "they're in the same situation as ours." "We have to prepare the kindergarten. The kids have been out of the house for a month. It's not a simple task," she added. Many of the families in kibbutz Ein HaShlosha, who have yet to return to their homes, have decided, after long consideration, not to return. And, following the continuous rocket fire, the kibbutz decided to send away those families who did return. "This is a hard decision made with mixed feelings and a lot of anger and frustration turned at the government, that appears to have forgotten us," Danny Cohen, an Ein HaShlosha resident, said. Now he's looking for a safe place for his wife and their four children. "The families that returned with their children stay indoors all the time. We decided it wasn't fair on our children. Until we feel safe that our children could play outside, we'll take them to a safer place," he added. Danny's wife Merav said: "When we came back there were still tanks in the kibbutz. We feel awful. We feel like we've been abandoned, that we have no rights in this country, that we have no meaning besides being here on the border. In the past two days I've been hearing Hamas threaten and does as it said, while the government doesn't hear us and won't give us answers. We're in a country that's supposed to protect us, rather than us hiding like rats in holes. Talk around the kibbutz is difficult. There's a feeling no one is taking care of us. Why did you bring us back?" The situation in Nahal Oz and Ein HaShlosha does not necessarily reflect on the situation in other communities in the area. According to estimates, some 85% of the residents in the area who left when Operation Protective Edge began have already returned. In many of the communities the education system will work as planned on Sunday. --- This could become a problem for Netanyahu's government, although Nahal Oz and Ein HaShlosha are more of a Labor/Meretz constituency. Still, this gives any hardliners plenty of ammunition. And remember, he can be deposed or his government can be replaced even without an election, just with the parties now in the Knesset.
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Aug 10, 2014 03:57
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That doesn't sound like 'a problem for Netanyahu', that sounds like exactly what he's looking for: another set of Israelis feeling 'unsafe' to create justification for continued intervention.
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Aug 10, 2014 05:03
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bpower posted:As soon as becomes acceptable to acknowledge this in respectable company, Israel is in trouble. I mean if you start to see "Isreali" used as the rear end in a top hat in jokes on mainstream TV in a similar way to white South Africans in the 80's, it will be embarrassing and horribly unsocial to publicly defend Israel's action. Polite people will roll their eyes and walk away at dinner parties. (These dinner parties are imaginary but it's how I image fancy people hang out together.) It then becomes a vote loser. How many Israelis does it take to change a lightbulb? Three. One to smash the old bulb to pieces, one to screw in his own bulb and one to shoot you for stealing the lamp of his ancestors. 
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Aug 10, 2014 05:06
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NLJP posted:That doesn't sound like 'a problem for Netanyahu', that sounds like exactly what he's looking for: another set of Israelis feeling 'unsafe' to create justification for continued intervention. Except he just withdrew ground troops. It makes him seem like a chump on security.
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Aug 10, 2014 05:07
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Except he just withdrew ground troops. It makes him seem like a chump on security. If there's anything we've learned over the years it's that they'll be back
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Aug 10, 2014 05:20
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http://www.idfblog.com/facts-figures/rocket-attacks-toward-israel/ is this accurate?
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Aug 10, 2014 05:38
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I LIKE COOKIE posted:http://www.idfblog.com/facts-figures/rocket-attacks-toward-israel/ Note that the only reference to casualties is when the IDF does an operation. Also note that the West Bank is completely filled in as "Israel".
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Aug 10, 2014 05:43
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5Gk6c9SmOU
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Aug 10, 2014 07:25
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So apparently a bunch of people were carrying those signs yesterday 
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Aug 10, 2014 08:17
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I seriously don't know how to process a right wing israeli rally literally using the most famous nazi slogan, in hebrew
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Aug 10, 2014 08:36
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Those loving people  They have to be trying to bait their opponents. Right? 
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Aug 10, 2014 08:39
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I can scarcely believe that people can be that ignorant of the history of the ethnic group they're so proud to belong to. This is some kind of warped Horseshoe Effect going on.
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Aug 10, 2014 08:58
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