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Javid posted:The mountains on 97 are crossed by heavy haul trucks daily. If Portland gets THAT bad, the climbing will easily become the lesser evil. There's a big wal-mart facility out there anyway; for those guys it won't even be a change. Like I said, for some of the lighter vehicles it'll be preferable. But generally speaking it's faster and cheaper to go a few hundred miles out of your way to stay on flat roads than to try slow-poking it up and down hills at 25 miles per hour, hoping that your brakes don't burn up. Or so sayeth my owner-operator cousin at least, who incidentally crossed the Columbia at Umatilla the other day rather than crossing the Interstate Bridge (though of course he was on his way to North Carolina out of Portland so it makes sense regardless). Hopefully it won't come to all that though. Kaal fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Aug 14, 2014 |
# ? Aug 14, 2014 06:07 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 12:17 |
I spent a time on the Seattle - bend route doing heavy haul with trucks grossing 105k+ and it really only sucks in winter. If 97 became a bigger freight corridor they'd probably plow it better and alleviate that some, even. Creeping up a mountain at 15 mph is far less awful than inching along in traffic, since you can at least use the cruise mostly.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 07:53 |
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Javid posted:I spent a time on the Seattle - bend route doing heavy haul with trucks grossing 105k+ and it really only sucks in winter. If 97 became a bigger freight corridor they'd probably plow it better and alleviate that some, even. Creeping up a mountain at 15 mph is far less awful than inching along in traffic, since you can at least use the cruise mostly. That's a fair point, and I suppose that they could come up the I-5 as far as Highway 20 before cutting over the mountains to Highway 97, so they could avoid both Portland congestion and the most of the mountain range.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 08:12 |
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Kaal posted:Well Vancouver is not in Oregon, so of course they aren't part of the Oregonian political process. If Vancouver wants bridges into Portland, convince Washington to pony up their share of the money to replace the decaying bridges. Oregon taxpayers aren't going to spend $4 billion just so Vancouverites can go eat on Mississippi Street. Public opinion in Vancouver has to shift to seeing these bridges as something worth fighting for, or they'll just end up being ordered closed by the Oregon DOT due to liability concerns. Contrary to popular belief, 60,000+ Vancouverites are Oregon taxpayers**. The lack of representation and benefit from Oregon income tax is one reason I insist on remote work rather than in a Portland office. The antipathy cuts both ways. I believe the only additional tax exemption for out-of-state workers is for days not worked in Oregon, which is essentially no exemption at all. **I tried to find what this means in actual tax dollars but couldn't find the numbers. Commuters from Washington have a higher than average income though. Ardennes posted:Anyway the proposed toll solution would just toll southbound traffic which would be almost entirely Washington residents anyway. My point was that you can't put the lack of affect out-of-state consumers on Oregon's economy on the out-of-state consumer when it's Oregon tax law that determines it. It's a little mind boggling to hear complaints about out-of-state consumers feeding money into the local economy. I mean, I would love it for Portland consumers to flock into downtown Vancouver and revitalize it.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 14:21 |
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size1one posted:Contrary to popular belief, 60,000+ Vancouverites are Oregon taxpayers**. The lack of representation and benefit from Oregon income tax is one reason I insist on remote work rather than in a Portland office. The antipathy cuts both ways. And since Vancouverites like to make the argument "it's not fair that we pay Oregon taxes but get no say in where the money goes," conversely doesn't that mean it's not fair that they don't pay Washington taxes and do get say in where that money goes? So, shouldn't we be disenfranchising them, you know, out of "fairness?" size1one posted:My point was that you can't put the lack of affect out-of-state consumers on Oregon's economy on the out-of-state consumer when it's Oregon tax law that determines it. It's a little mind boggling to hear complaints about out-of-state consumers feeding money into the local economy. I mean, I would love it for Portland consumers to flock into downtown Vancouver and revitalize it.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 15:38 |
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If Vancouverites pay higher than average taxes, why not move to Oregon?
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 15:42 |
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It's been a hot button for this area since I was a kid, the Oregon taxation of Washington residents. I'm totally willing to support taxing WA license plates going South, as long as there is something in place recognizing the people that do pay OR taxes and we get a break of some sorts - since we help pay for the mythical bridge that will probably never get built! As for why people live over here, it's far less expensive to buy a house and the schools are significantly better.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 15:49 |
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size1one posted:Contrary to popular belief, 60,000+ Vancouverites are Oregon taxpayers That's great, and sometimes when I go to Washington I don't bother pulling out my ID for every purchase. Just because I'm a "Washington taxpayer" doesn't mean WA is going to give me political representation.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 16:08 |
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kensei posted:It's been a hot button for this area since I was a kid, the Oregon taxation of Washington residents. I'm totally willing to support taxing WA license plates going South, as long as there is something in place recognizing the people that do pay OR taxes and we get a break of some sorts - since we help pay for the mythical bridge that will probably never get built! Yeah, if Oregonians don't want people living in Vancouver and working in Portland, maybe they could try something crazy like building houses in/near Portland?
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 16:39 |
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/\/\/\/\ School districts are the reason many choose Vancouver. Portland's aren't that great except in a few very expensive places or far out in Hillsboro.Thanatosian posted:Yeah, I'm sure you don't see any benefit from the bridges, or the infrastructure that allows you to shop down there, or do any of the things associated with a big city, right? And I'm sure your working remotely has nothing to do with dodging the associated taxes, putting more money in your pocket, right? No, no, it's not the money; it's the principle. We don't benefit to the extent that an Oregon resident does. When we spend time in Oregon we're spending our money there. It does actually has more to do with principal. I don't have a problem with paying taxes if I benefit enough from it, or even taxes that benefit others when they aren't so full of contempt. Thank you for telling me what I really care about though, it really really makes me want to help fund your schools and such. Kaal posted:That's great, and sometimes when I go to Washington I don't bother pulling out my ID for every purchase. Just because I'm a "Washington taxpayer" doesn't mean WA is going to give me political representation. Sure, but there's quite a large difference between the sales tax you paid and income tax. And if there wasn't such a large difference, You'd be pulling out your ID every time. size1one fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Aug 14, 2014 |
# ? Aug 14, 2014 16:41 |
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size1one posted:We don't benefit to the extent that an Oregon resident does. When we spend time in Oregon we're spending our money there. And forgive me for thinking that I shouldn't have to show up at your doorstep begging hat-in-hand for you to actually contribute a little bit to all the loving services you benefit from. Honestly, we should just let Oregon annex Clark County. Win-win from Washington's perspective, and you'd get the representation you so desperately desire.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 16:49 |
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Mrit posted:Yeah, if Oregonians don't want people living in Vancouver and working in Portland, maybe they could try something crazy like building houses in/near Portland? Yeah, if Oregonians don't want to see urban sprawl in Vancouver, then I guess they'll just have to allow urban sprawl in Portland. Checkmate Oregon
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 16:54 |
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size1one posted:Sure, but there's quite a large difference between the sales tax you paid and income tax. And if there wasn't such a large difference, You'd be pulling out your ID every time. There's also a large difference between a Vancouverite that works in Oregon paying some income tax, and an Oregon resident that pays all the Oregon taxes, is subject to Oregon laws, and actually lives in the community. As long as there's such a disparity in tax and growth policies, Oregonians are never going to accept Vancouverites as anything but neighbors. Kaal fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Aug 14, 2014 |
# ? Aug 14, 2014 17:04 |
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Thanatosian posted:You and your welfare queen county don't pay for poo poo for me. It's my money that's paying for your schools, and roads, and other infrastructure that allows you to work remotely. Clark county residents who work in Oregon on average earn much more than the local average. Meaning they pay more in taxes than the average resident. Income taxes are by far the largest portion of taxes that Oregon collects from it's residents. Welfare queens. I'd be all for annexation if it means bridges.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 17:05 |
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kensei posted:As for why people live over here, it's far less expensive to buy a house and the schools are significantly better. Vancouver schools don't seem to really deserve that reputation. If anything, they rate lower than Portland schools. I'm sure there are good schools in both cities, but it seems to me that Vancouver's reputation for "significantly better schools" probably has more to do with Portland being unacceptably urban. I mean Portland has some of the best schools in Oregon: http://www.oregonlive.com/education/index.ssf/2013/10/washington_county_claims_outsi.html http://www.greatschools.org/oregon/portland/ http://www.greatschools.org/washington/vancouver/
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 17:36 |
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Kaal posted:Like I said, for some of the lighter vehicles it'll be preferable. But generally speaking it's faster and cheaper to go a few hundred miles out of your way to stay on flat roads than to try slow-poking it up and down hills at 25 miles per hour, hoping that your brakes don't burn up. Or so sayeth my owner-operator cousin at least, who incidentally crossed the Columbia at Umatilla the other day rather than crossing the Interstate Bridge (though of course he was on his way to North Carolina out of Portland so it makes sense regardless). Hopefully it won't come to all that though. Why would anybody going from Portland to NC need to go into WA at all? That's what I-84 is for. size1one posted:Clark county residents who work in Oregon on average earn much more than the local average. Meaning they pay more in taxes than the average resident. Income taxes are by far the largest portion of taxes that Oregon collects from it's residents. Welfare queens.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 17:40 |
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SyHopeful posted:Why would anybody going from Portland to NC need to go into WA at all? That's what I-84 is for. Well I assume he was taking I-90, but I couldn't say why exactly. Perhaps he has a stop along the way that he didn't mention, but probably it has more to do with avoiding city traffic or mountains. A truck can make fantastic time going across Montana, North Dakota, and Minnesota, since the road is so flat and uninterrupted. The route distance is pretty comparable, with I-90 being only about 80 miles longer than I-84, which is about a 3% change. I'll have to ask him about it when he gets back. Indeed I'm sure he's got some interesting/horrible ideas about the CRC, seeing as he's a owner-operator trucker as well as a Vancouver conservative. Presumably he's of the "30 lane freeway, no light rail or sidewalks, Oregon pays for everything and thanks Vancouverites for shopping at our Walmarts" variety. Kaal fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Aug 14, 2014 |
# ? Aug 14, 2014 17:51 |
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size1one posted:Clark county residents who work in Oregon on average earn much more than the local average. Meaning they pay more in taxes than the average resident. Income taxes are by far the largest portion of taxes that Oregon collects from it's residents. Welfare queens.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 17:52 |
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size1one posted:Clark county residents who work in Oregon on average earn much more than the local average. Meaning they pay more in taxes than the average resident. Income taxes are by far the largest portion of taxes that Oregon collects from it's residents. Welfare queens. Maybe if Vancouver stopped reveling in its mundanity and figured out how to make a city that isn't dull and boring as dirt (hint: the answer to new development isn't always strip malls, cookie cutter housing developments, and stoplights) it might attract the kind of people that makes Portland so neat. Added bonus of increase tax revenue from increased density. SyHopeful fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Aug 14, 2014 |
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Kaal posted:Vancouver schools don't seem to really deserve that reputation. If anything, they rate lower than Portland schools. I'm sure there are good schools in both cities, but it seems to me that Vancouver's reputation for "significantly better schools" probably has more to do with Portland being unacceptably urban. I mean Portland has some of the best schools in Oregon: http://www.oregonlive.com/education/index.ssf/2013/10/washington_county_claims_outsi.html My wife went to volunteer at two different highly touted Portland schools as part of a business leadership program from her job (she also works in Portland). At one school, a student was arrested for threatening another with a gun while she was there, and at the other, a kid was stabbed for cutting in line at lunch, again while she was there. Both grade schools. That poo poo has never happened at my kids' schools in Vancouver. You can have your rankings, I'll keep my opinions the way they are. size1one posted:I'd be all for annexation if it means bridges. Same.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 18:04 |
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kensei posted:My wife went to volunteer at two different highly touted Portland schools as part of a business leadership program from her job (she also works in Portland). At one school, a student was arrested for threatening another with a gun while she was there, and at the other, a kid was stabbed for cutting in line at lunch, again while she was there. Both grade schools. That poo poo has never happened at my kids' schools in Vancouver. You can have your rankings, I'll keep my opinions the way they are. quote:(CNN) -- A Washington state middle school boy was arrested after he brought 400 rounds of ammunition, multiple knives and a handgun to his school, intending to shoot another student who he thought was bullying his friend, police said. quote:VANCOUVER, Wash. A 13-year-old Hosanna Christian School student is suspected of reckless endangerment and was expelled for allegedly stabbing a classmate in the eye last week with the broken handle of a plastic spoon. quote:Vancouver, Wash., boy, 15, gets 10 days for school shooting threats quote:Bomb threat closes Vancouver WA high school quote:The arrest of a 19-year-old registered sex offender has parents upset about a Washington state law. quote:Police arrested a 13-year old Battle Ground student Wednesday afternoon in connection with threats made against a teacher at his middle school, police officials said. Vancouver Supports Terror Schools. Washington Crime Blight Threatens Portland Youth. Oregon Mom: This Doesn't Happen Where We Come From. Fair and Balanced, We Report, You Decide. Violence in schools is a fact of life in America. I'm sure that this list would be three times larger if Google wasn't filled with stories about shootings, stabbings, and attacks in Vancouver, BC. Kaal fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Aug 14, 2014 |
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poo poo happens everywhere, I don't disagree. Thanks for the
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 18:22 |
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Kaal posted:Vancouver Supports Terror Schools. Washington Crime Blight Threatens Portland Youth. Oregon Mom: This Doesn't Happen Where We Come From. Fair and Balanced, We Report, You Decide. But see, boys will be boys. This is just kids doing kid stuff that they will grow out of. But in Portland, you see, it is Thugs in Training.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 18:38 |
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Kaal posted:Vancouver schools don't seem to really deserve that reputation. If anything, they rate lower than Portland schools. I'm sure there are good schools in both cities, but it seems to me that Vancouver's reputation for "significantly better schools" probably has more to do with Portland being unacceptably urban. I mean Portland has some of the best schools in Oregon: http://www.oregonlive.com/education/index.ssf/2013/10/washington_county_claims_outsi.html Those school ratings have changed quite a bit since we moved to the area a few years ago. Portland looks better and Vancouver has gotten worse.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 18:45 |
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size1one posted:Those school ratings have changed quite a bit since we moved to the area a few years ago. Portland looks better and Vancouver has gotten worse. I've read that Washington school funding dropped precipitously following the recession, though it has since recovered to its previous levels. I'm sure we can both agree that schools in both Washington and Oregon could definitely use some improvement. School spending in both states is below the national average, which in concert with NCLB and Core Curriculum mandates have gutted public education in the Northwest. And of course Oregon has been annually shooting itself in the foot with Measure 5 since 1990. Kaal fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Aug 14, 2014 |
# ? Aug 14, 2014 18:52 |
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When I have driven through Vancouver I never felt it was the "richer" city, if anything Clark County just seemed pretty run down and downtown Vancouver was about as bad as the most rundown sections of Old town. As far as schools I have no idea, but as far as visible infrastructure Vancouver seemed like a town that has been ground down and I wonder it might actually be an issue of property taxes. (State income tax wouldn't matter in this context.) As far as Vancouver's existence, the big defense I hear from people living there it is cheaper and the tax load is lighter but ultimately it is their choice to get jobs in Portland or not. To be honest it balances out in this case compared to other suburbs because people from Washington, if they want to commute to the central city, have to contribute at some degree to help pay for the city they are benefiting from. By commuting here you are using our services for a portion of your day, so I don't see a problem contributing par of your income since that is how we tax. There is certainly a cost-benefit balance that Vancouver residents already figured out. However, you get one vote, and if your a Washington resident, your vote is in Washington state. That said, it does benefit Portland but it is up to us (Oregon voters overall) to decide if that is worth the costs or not and your income taxes are part of that equation but so are still the high costs. One other issue is that the CRC was going to probably end up costing twice the starting price through simple corruption and mismanagement. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Aug 14, 2014 |
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Ardennes posted:When I have driven through Vancouver I never felt it was the "richer" city, if anything Clark County just seemed pretty run down and downtown Vancouver was about as bad as the most rundown sections of Old town. All of the affluence being referenced is in the sprawling suburbs built up in the past 15-20 years.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 19:18 |
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highme posted:All of the affluence being referenced is in the sprawling suburbs built up in the past 15-20 years. I guess they must be way up there because everything along the freeway looked similarly rundown. I guess Charlie Hales had/has to live somewhere though.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 19:21 |
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Those Great Washington Schoolsquote:"We currently rank 45th in the nation in spending per student, says WEA President Mary Lindquist. The legislature has let the current crisis become an excuse to continue underfunding our schools.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 19:24 |
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More accurate to say the Senate. A couple of turncoat Democrats put the Senate into Republican hands so that they could be the Majority Leader and President Pro Tempore. At least one of them isn't running again, thank god.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 19:31 |
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Thanatosian posted:More accurate to say the Senate. A couple of turncoat Democrats put the Senate into Republican hands so that they could be the Majority Leader and President Pro Tempore. At least one of them isn't running again, thank god. I'm glad this lawsuit is an actual thing, hopefully it'll force the legislature to take some action. Also, really impressed by Spears' 20% pickup in the primaries.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 19:37 |
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Ardennes posted:When I have driven through Vancouver I never felt it was the "richer" city, if anything Clark County just seemed pretty run down and downtown Vancouver was about as bad as the most rundown sections of Old town. As far as schools I have no idea, but as far as visible infrastructure Vancouver seemed like a town that has been ground down and I wonder it might actually be an issue of property taxes. (State income tax wouldn't matter in this context.) People from Portland and Oregon often use "Vancouver" as a shorthand for Clark County. But even people in Clark County often don't know where Vancouver starts and stops, because past a certain point its borders kind of snake around. But Vancouver has also changed. This is especially funny for me because when I was growing up, the joke about Vancouver was always that it was kind of amusingly low-rent and unsophisticated. Lot of eating Jo-Jos outside the Minute Mart. The rise of bedroom communities in places like Ridgefield and Camas has really been the past 10-15 years. Camas used to be the town that smelled bad because of the paper mill. Now it is one of the top five richest suburbs in the Portland area. But just Vancouver itself is not just its stereotypes. Its a good cross-section of America. I could actually look at the figures on this...
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 19:42 |
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SyHopeful posted:I'm glad this lawsuit is an actual thing, hopefully it'll force the legislature to take some action. The McCleary Case has been rattling around the halls of Olympia for about seven years now. The WA Supreme Court has been pretty clear about siding in favor of funding the schools to a basic level, but the legislature has been resisting as much as it can. So far things are still up in the air. The last major development was back in May, where the State of Washington basically punted the issue into 2018, and dared the court to involve itself further. http://washingtonstatewire.com/blog/legislature-punts-education-funding-back-to-supreme-court/ http://www.courts.wa.gov/appellate_trial_courts/SupremeCourt/?fa=supremecourt.McCleary_Education Kaal fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Aug 14, 2014 |
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glowing-fish posted:Camas used to be the town that smelled bad because of the paper mill. Now it is one of the top five richest suburbs in the Portland area. And while "the schools are better" is the feel good reason those people give for moving there, even if they work in Oregon, no state income taxes on investment income is a significant discount for the wealthy.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 20:07 |
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Forget tax talk, Chick-fil-A is building a location in Seattle. I'm curious how that's gonna work.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 22:13 |
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seiferguy posted:Forget tax talk, Chick-fil-A is building a location in Seattle. I'm curious how that's gonna work. They could be capital-N Nazis and I'd still buy those spicy chickens.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 22:39 |
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Won't they be competing with Ezell's?
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 22:49 |
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Chantilly Say posted:Won't they be competing with Ezell's? I've never had Chick fil a but Ezell's isn't much to compete with.
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# ? Aug 14, 2014 23:58 |
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Chantilly Say posted:Won't they be competing with Ezell's?
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# ? Aug 15, 2014 00:03 |
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Are you goons seriously confusing chik-fil-a with fried chicken?
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# ? Aug 15, 2014 00:04 |