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My overall opinion on wrestling: still unpredictable and requires building your fighter around it--and your entire team, too, I would argue. Pretty good in a support role, but I wouldn't use it on a fighter for a 1v1, and I'm not entirely sure if it's worth giving up another highly-armed fighter. It is, however, extremely entertaining to watch! And yes, I'm looking forward to the next one! I'd like to become a commissioner for it if possible, Jazzimus.
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Sep 4, 2014 01:48
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If King had adamantine gauntlets and boots instead of the greaves, and if Onan had been taken out of the fight, this match would have had a very different result. The thing about armor is that you either have to go all in, on pray that Armok has mercy upon you, because the enemy team certainly won't.
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Sep 4, 2014 01:57
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King Cohort posted:My overall opinion on wrestling: still unpredictable and requires building your fighter around it--and your entire team, too, I would argue. Pretty good in a support role, but I wouldn't use it on a fighter for a 1v1, and I'm not entirely sure if it's worth giving up another highly-armed fighter. It is, however, extremely entertaining to watch! Also: if you are a big dude wrestling and striking are helpful. If you are little, it sucks balls. We did some testing and this is why the strangler on our team went with biting because we found biting to be far more effective for a little dude than wrestling/striking.
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Sep 4, 2014 02:02
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my dad posted:If King had adamantine gauntlets and boots instead of the greaves, and if Onan had been taken out of the fight, this match would have had a very different result. The thing about armor is that you either have to go all in, on pray that Armok has mercy upon you, because the enemy team certainly won't.  I thought what I had would let me hold them off long enough for Sunny and Willie to chop and stab them to bits, respectively. I feel that our loss was a team effort.Do you know what plain misses are caused by? Willie had 11 spear skill, so I'm not sure how they occur within the game logic as opposed to dodges or blocks or parries.
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Sep 4, 2014 02:21
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 That was an amazing writeup for an even more amazing fight, goddamn. For how much we swept and brutalized our way to the finals, I'm shocked at how badly we got brutalized in turn. It's reassuring, though, that at least King and Sunny did their jobs of taking most of the hits so Willie could try and do his thing, but alas, almost fittingly for his name, Willie's aim was way off this day. In honor of Treeloved, the elf who slew Willie, and in recognition of their tradition of consuming their enemies, I present to you an appropriate theme.
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Sep 4, 2014 02:41
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atomicthumbs posted:quick start the next one I have an idea for a yeti I want to finish coding a few more changes before we start the next test tournament. Hopefully it won't take more than a few days. Also, DF 40.11 was released today, which fixes the slow archery problem, so we'll be going with that version when we start the next one. Archers will be good again! King Cohort posted:I'd like to become a commissioner for it if possible, Jazzimus. I think we can accommodate that.
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Sep 4, 2014 03:24
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Going with an antperson, 4 bows, max fighting, death blossom.
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Sep 4, 2014 03:26
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Having higher weaponskill than your foe is, as far as I understand, a really big deal.
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Sep 4, 2014 03:29
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Personal theory: the doubled points of the test tournaments give smaller fighters an advantage over larger fighters, despite the lack of effective small guys seen in this tournament. The enormous amount of points anyone below average size gets now may entirely negate or even overpower the advantage big guys get from their size. Compost Day would not have had 14 sword skill and an adamantine sword in a regular tournament, for example, not without giving up all their other goodies. I feel like the "optimal" size is average (dwarf size) or slightly below average.
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Sep 4, 2014 03:35
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King Cohort posted:I feel like the "optimal" size is average (dwarf size) or slightly below average. I feel this is the case, at least for this tournament. I was shocked that I was able to cover my body with adamantine and still be an alright fighter otherwise as an Elf.
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Sep 4, 2014 04:12
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atomicthumbs posted:quick start the next one I have an idea for a yeti No you son of a bitch I'M the one with an idea for a yeti! Clearly this can only be settled by a fair, unbiased duel between our meat-mountains in the first round. This arena ain't big enough for the two us! Unless it's teams again in which case I demand we form an all-yeti team. We can be called them the, uh, Yeti Jetty. Or somethin'. We'll focus group it, it'll be fine.
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Sep 4, 2014 04:14
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I know it's never going to happen, but if two teams happen to bleed out at the same time and the match would otherwise be a draw, could the tiebreaker be the number of teeth knocked out?
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Sep 4, 2014 05:35
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Ninjavitis posted:I know it's never going to happen, but if two teams happen to bleed out at the same time and the match would otherwise be a draw, could the tiebreaker be the number of teeth knocked out? Most dismembered team loses.
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Sep 4, 2014 06:09
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Spermy Smurf posted:Also: if you are a big dude wrestling and striking are helpful. If you are little, it sucks balls. We did some testing and this is why the strangler on our team went with biting because we found biting to be far more effective for a little dude than wrestling/striking. Yeah, it's pretty hilarious how superior teeth are to using four arms.
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Sep 4, 2014 06:14
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SynthOrange posted:Going with an antperson, 4 bows, max fighting, death blossom. While I hate to rain on your parade, bows are a two-handed weapon, so you could only use two. Also fighters can only focus enough to use one at a time, I know through testing. The only value in having a second bow is if something makes you empty your quiver(s) or you get hurt and drop a weapon. Ninjavitis posted:I know it's never going to happen, but if two teams happen to bleed out at the same time and the match would otherwise be a draw, could the tiebreaker be the number of teeth knocked out? The combat log is completely linear, so we'd get a 'photo finish' that prevents that! I am full of bad news tonight. So in positive news... Maugrim, loved the fight write-up. e: And not to rush anything, but just for testing/general knowledge, any idea of when we might get an arena mod of the new release with fast archers? ZeeToo fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Sep 4, 2014 |
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Sep 4, 2014 06:41
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ZeeToo posted:e: And not to rush anything, but just for testing/general knowledge, any idea of when we might get an arena mod of the new release with fast archers? I can probably have that out tomorrow.
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Sep 4, 2014 07:34
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Awesome work on the finale, Maugrim! Quoting myself because this got lost in the excitement: Jack the Lad posted:Okay folks, I've put together an edited arena map with 64 rings for your testing pleasure. And also humbly requesting that the second test tournament be 1v1.
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Sep 4, 2014 09:14
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Maugrim, thanks for the awesome writeup, and thanks to everyone who's run a fight so far. For the record, Onan ended up like this: Platinum War Hammer Steel Helm Steel Mail Shirt Steel Breast Plate Steel Greaves Steel Gauntlets Steel High Boots He has the following skills. Level 5 Fighting (Proficient) Level 14 Hammer (Grand Master) Level 8 Dodging (Expert) Level 10 Armor (Accomplished) Onan started off with a maul, which seemed to be too slow or too heavy for him to really be effective, so I swapped it out for a war hammer for the last fight. The idea behind the build was to be a steel-clad damage soak with the biggest stick the game allowed, but downsizing the stick in the end worked out. We didn't have a team gimmick, as such, we just split our weapon types between piercing, slashing and bashing, and concentrated on weapon skill. Now I've built something sensible, time to move onto a something a bit more esoteric!
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Sep 4, 2014 12:50
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Afriscipio posted:We didn't have a team gimmick, as such, we just split our weapon types between piercing, slashing and bashing, and concentrated on weapon skill. This. Weaponskill is very important. With snake men having more points than humans/elves I was most concerned about Willy, expecting a 14-skill adamantine spear dude. Being at 11 probably explains why he had trouble landing shots, though it isn't clear in the logs so hard to be sure. The log doesn't seem to mention counterstrikes like it used to either. King was concerning mostly because we saw he had the adamantine mail from the previous fight so he could (and did) tie us up bringing him down. That was part of the reason we went adamantine in the last fight. Him being a striker at least meant that our steel armor wasn't rendered entirely obsolete by adamantine weapons. I was pretty concerned when Treeloved got grabbed and stabbed though. That elf was our most consistently deadly teammate through the magic of spears. I wasn't expecting Sunny to be able to afford a last-minute upgrade to an adamantine axe in the last round on moleman points, and figured he'd be stuck with a steel one giving us more milage out of our steel. Only having 9 axes was probably why Compost Day was able to attack him with relative impunity. I'm glad Compost Day ended up facing him, bashing or stabbing might not have been as quickly disabling as limb-hewing. Also I didn't notice until I read the log, but good job breaking King's spine, Onan! Also Compost Day apparently spent so long beating King with his buckler because his sword was stuck in One-Eyed Willie's hand.
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Sep 4, 2014 13:25
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Yesssss. Lost all my money on the finals. Perfect betting record achieved.
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Sep 4, 2014 13:29
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It's clear that we diversified too much and strayed from our team roles (Willie spent his last points on just-in-case adamantine mail [at my advice] when he should have been boosting spear skill, et cetera). All of us were arena newbies and never even thought about what sort of weapon skill we'd be facing, or that it would prove so crucial; we saw from the logs that nobody on Meat & Two Veg had adamantine anything and just went whole hog on that blue stuff. The lesson to be learned from our glorious downfall is that, if your team is heavily split into separate roles, play to those roles hard instead of trying to be everymen.
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Sep 4, 2014 14:23
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Another takeaway I had from the earlier rounds is that while being injured in the foot and grounded is bad, it doesn't seem to be as bad as it used to be (at least for a melee weapon build). Compost Day was able to contribute while legshot in most of the fights. It's why I opted to never fill the leg hole in my armor. The Wild Ones getting adamantine armor wasn't a bad idea, but I don't think I'd put armor ahead of lunging weapon skill because it is offense AND defense.
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Sep 4, 2014 17:23
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Thanks for the write-up, Maug! Brilliant commentating and I always love Upper-Class Twit of the Year references. On builds - I don't think it's ever worthwhile to change your overall plan. If your idea is maximum weapon skills you shouldn't ever go for full armour (at least beyond iron). Occasional pieces (Like Compost Day's mail) are good when you want a bit of survivability, but you shouldn't go from skills-focused to armour-focused between rounds. You'll end up middling in both, lacking both the killer edge and impenetrable defenses you need. Worth noting this is only based on my building medium and large fighters, and round one is always a bit of a crap shoot.
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Sep 4, 2014 18:00
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unwantedplatypus posted:Whip It Out May not have made it past the quarterfinals but at least I have my Monopoly money. Maybe you'll get a pair of platinum gloves next tournament for winning it all.
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Sep 4, 2014 18:03
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Do we get FABULOUS PRIZES for winning an unofficial test tour- oh. For the next one I was thinking of doing a striker. Is it recommend to focus striking OR wrestling, or is mixing both ideal?
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Sep 4, 2014 23:04
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ZeeToo posted:And not to rush anything, but just for testing/general knowledge, any idea of when we might get an arena mod of the new release with fast archers? I think I have the new mod ready now, for anyone who wants to get an early start on testing: http://arenachallenge.com/dwarffort/df_40_11_arena.zip I did make one new fix to the raws this time. Apparently Minotaurs still had their ridiculously strong semi-megabeast stats (Strength+++, Agility+++, Toughness+++, etc.), so I toned these down to what Vox had originally intended (Strength++, Agility-). Apparently Vox missed a few lines in the original raw files. iLonie posted:Also Jazz, it looks like there might be an error with the way the tournament brackets are worked out, as both Catholicism and Lucky Team 13 finished in second place, and I believe the idea was to reward the winners with easier matchups? Worked out well for us though. I just looked at this again, and the tiebreaker was actually working as designed, it's just that I spoke incorrectly when I first explained how tiebreakers work. (I wrote the code 4 years ago and hadn't looked at it in a while.) The first tiebreaker is actually head-to-head record, with points being used as the second tiebreaker. Since Catholicism defeated Little Guys Long Spears in their head-to-head matchup, Catholicism was awarded the first place seed for their division. The second tiebreaker could come into play when the official tournament finally happens, since teams will fight each team in their own division twice. Winning both head-to-head matches would give you the first tiebreaker, and points would give you the second if both teams win one head-to-head match. And in case you're wondering, third tiebreaker is another fight. Ramc posted:Do we get FABULOUS PRIZES for winning an unofficial test tour- oh. I'm debating whether to include little medals on players' profile pages, which would be kind of like Xbox Achievements or whatever, to indicate things like "Arena Champion", "Betting Champion", "Arena Semifinalist", and whatnot. It wouldn't really be that much work to do.
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Sep 5, 2014 01:25
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Jazzimus Prime posted:I'm debating whether to include little medals on players' profile pages, which would be kind of like Xbox Achievements or whatever, to indicate things like "Arena Champion", "Betting Champion", "Arena Semifinalist", and whatnot. It wouldn't really be that much work to do. There is nothing more important than meaningless internet bragging rights.
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Sep 5, 2014 01:35
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Ramc posted:There is nothing more important than meaningless internet bragging rights. Hear, hear!
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Sep 5, 2014 09:53
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I looked deeper into the tiebreaker code, and discovered that in some cases it would actually resolve incorrectly when there is a three-way tie that still has two teams remaining tied after the second tiebreaker... so I believe I've got that fixed now.Jack the Lad posted:And also humbly requesting that the second test tournament be 1v1. Well... since the official tournament was going to use teams, I'd kind of like to continue testing with teams for now.
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Sep 5, 2014 23:39
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Could you do a random team tournament? 3 vs 3 for a round, then shuffle and it's a different 3 vs 3 and shuffle for a different etc. Then after N rounds you take the most successful and put them in a battle royale.
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Sep 6, 2014 01:41
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goatface posted:Could you do a random team tournament? 3 vs 3 for a round, then shuffle and it's a different 3 vs 3 and shuffle for a different etc. Then after N rounds you take the most successful and put them in a battle royale. That's a pretty cool idea, but to have the site do that automatically would require a whole lot of coding that I'm not ready to do just yet. I've finished testing the run-fights-out-of-order code, and it appears to work in all cases (teams, 1v1 fighters, playoff-qualifier-battle-royales when there's a 3-way tie for second, etc.). Running fights out of order did confuse one of the betting pages, but I have that fixed as well now. Another thing I want to have in place for the new test tournament is to change some things with how betting funds work. - All players start betting with N dwarfbucks - At the conclusion of each round, if your fighter won a fight, you receive a bonus of X dwarfbucks - At the conclusion of each round, if your fighter lost a fight, you receive a bonus of Y dwarfbucks - At the conclusion of each round, if you don't have a fighter in the tournament but you placed any bets at all in the previous round, you receive a bonus of Z dwarfbucks The first, second, and third of these items are sort-of already in place, but they are currently hard-coded global values, and I'd rather have them be a per-league value instead. For the next test tournament, I'm thinking we'll stick with 1000 starting dwarfbucks, and a bonus of 500, 300, and 400 each round for the X, Y, and Z values respectively. No longer will players be locked out of betting for the rest of the tournament after a bad round of bets!
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Sep 6, 2014 17:23
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Yay for being able to bet after I lose all my money! Are you going to start the next tourney soon? Randomized teams of 3 again?
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Sep 6, 2014 17:29
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Spermy Smurf posted:Yay for being able to bet after I lose all my money! Yes, I think we'll be good to start again in three or four days, and we'll probably do the randomized teams of 3 again. A couple of other things I'd like to have in place before we start: - The betting interface can't currently handle Battle Royale matches, which are automatically generated by the site whenever there is a three-way tie after all tiebreakers are accounted for. I'd like to get this working, since a three-way tie is very much possible in the current tournament style (if one team wins all pool play matches by the same score, and the three remaining teams all have one win and one loss against each other with identical scores). - It would be nice if I could get Team Macros working as well -- so that an entire team could be created with a single macro.
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Sep 6, 2014 17:39
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For the hell of it, I tallied up the kills from the last tournament. pre:TreeLoved 10 Urist the Boring 8 One eyed Willie 7 Prancer III 6 Gorbash 5 King 4 Mikorin 4 Onan 4 snarfsnarf 4 Sunny 4 Whip It Out 4 American President 3 Aspenger 3 Compost Day 3 Johnny Bravo 3 Likely Shortlived 3 Mayor of Nilbog 3 Cat Stevens 2 Harold Bird 2 I'll strangle you 2 Moocules 2 Paper Machete 2 PedAnt gets 2 Spermy 2 Urist McTantrum 2 Van Winkle 2 Ant Agonist 1 Axel 1 Fast'n Loose 1 Gary Barlow 1 Grimdark the Smiley 1 IAMAWEREWOLFNOTATIGER 1 Jack 1 Knuckle Dragger 1 Love 1 Mammarian 1 Nibbles 1 Sister Abigail 1 The Pope 1 Willow Rawhide 1
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Sep 6, 2014 21:56
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That list isn't correct. Platinum Helms only add up to 7 kills, but we actually scored 10.
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Sep 6, 2014 21:59
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*methodology not guaranteed to be accurate
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Sep 6, 2014 22:11
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One question to Jazzimus: is it OK if commissioners use tilesets when running fights, for prettier screenshots?
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Sep 6, 2014 22:57
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Holy poo poo yes please
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Sep 6, 2014 23:29
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If ASCII was good enough for our fathers playing Nethack, it's good enough for everyone else forever. In the meantime, I suppose we have enough time to replay Team Tiny Arms vs Minotaur Mites now that archers have been unnerfed and quote:Strangler 1 strikes Minotaur 1 in the left lower arm with his adamantine pick, tearing apart the muscle through the large copper left gauntlet! Well... poo poo. Let's pretend I never tried that. quote:The flying {silver arrow} strikes Dwarf 1 in the right lower leg, tearing the muscle and bruising the bone through the small copper high boot! At least that's good. Archers are definitely looking better.
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Sep 7, 2014 01:55
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King Cohort posted:One question to Jazzimus: is it OK if commissioners use tilesets when running fights, for prettier screenshots? Absolutely, in fact I was going to try to include one by default in the next tournament. I was thinking of using the same Ironhand that was used in the DF2010 tournament unless someone has a better suggestion.
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Sep 7, 2014 02:00
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