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sleepingbuddha posted:Has there ever been a university that refused to take money from anyone? There's actually a few small ones around where tuition is never charged, usually with a requirement that the students accepted spend a certain amount of time per week working for the school. There used to be a lot more around in the same areas where the few remaining ones are, which is mostly the border area between the South and Midwest.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:47
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GreyjoyBastard posted:...How many B/CS* goons do we have, anyway? There seems to be a fair amount on various boards. We all seem to congregate to TFF though for obvious reasons.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:50
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So, in a rare moment of people actually talking about relevant stuff on FB, I saw a friend's friend trying to convince him that a minimum wage hike to $15.00 would cause fast food prices to rise precipitously. This link was provided: http://dailysignal.com/2014/09/04/wage-hike-fast-food-prices-infographic/ And the infographic in question for those who don't want to click:  Note the Heritage Foundation attribution at the bottom. My friend responded by saying he doesn't trust anything out of the Heritage Foundation and that the math is specious at best. How much bullshit is this whole thing? How much bullshit is dailysignal.com, and what might I be able to add to show how full of poo poo the Heritage Foundation really is?
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Sep 5, 2014 17:50
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Even at that egregious overstatement of price increase, that seems like a small price to pay to give people a near living wage.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:52
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zxqv8 posted:So, in a rare moment of people actually talking about relevant stuff on FB, I saw a friend's friend trying to convince him that a minimum wage hike to $15.00 would cause fast food prices to rise precipitously. This link was provided: edit: but here in Honolulu a lot of those are close to how things are now anyway.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:53
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It's horseshit straight from the rear end of Ann Romney's dancing horse. Min Wage labor isn't even close to that amount of cost.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:54
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Either way McDonalds and other fast food chains continue to offer new products that are incredibly expensive because of their short runs on the menu, and it's nonsensical to believe they'd make their own base products more unpalatable to purchase with such price increases when they can offer "gourmet" marketing type burgers which are the rage right now, and make it all up on that crap. They may as well have used loving candy bars and stupid scary RED-Dripping font for the prices. Nonsense fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Sep 5, 2014 |
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Sep 5, 2014 17:56
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So a 40% rise after a more than doubling of the minimum wage? Isn't that a good thing? People at $11/hr or less automatically now have more buying power. People at $11+/hr should get paid more than $15/hr because they were higher senority / have better positions. There should be a bouy effect on wages and they won't necessarily get screwed. They only people that get truly "hurt" are the people making much higher than minimum wage where you won't have that bouying effect. And this is using the Heritage Foundation's numbers which, I would tend to guess, chose the most dire scenario.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:59
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Lote posted:So a 40% rise after a more than doubling of the minimum wage? Isn't that a good thing? People at $11/hr or less automatically now have more buying power. People at $11+/hr should get paid more than $15/hr because they were higher senority / have better positions. There should be a bouy effect on wages and they won't necessarily get screwed. They only people that get truly "hurt" are the people making much higher than minimum wage where you won't have that bouying effect. No sorry workers are paid more and then they don't spend their money because working class people are stingy and never spend, they horde it all and expect handouts! The rich support all of society even those who give nothing to anybody!
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Sep 5, 2014 18:00
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Wait, there is a link to the heritage foundation directly: http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/09/higher-fast-food-wages-higher-fast-food-prices I just don't have the mental fortitude to slog through that to find out more.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:02
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zxqv8 posted:So, in a rare moment of people actually talking about relevant stuff on FB, I saw a friend's friend trying to convince him that a minimum wage hike to $15.00 would cause fast food prices to rise precipitously. This link was provided: As others have pointed out there is no actual math presented to be analysed. Thus I'm going to make the (probably correct) assumption that the graphic maker made the same idiotic error most do on this topic and assumed labor makes up a huge or near total percentage of cost and that profit margins MUST remain the same as before the wage hike. e: lol and heritage's appendix says that their model is bullshit if managers accept a profit cut. Raskolnikov38 fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Sep 5, 2014 |
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Sep 5, 2014 18:05
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zxqv8 posted:
 Somehow fast food workers wouldn't be working like dogs, and will only be working like mules.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:06
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Raskolnikov38 posted:and that profit margins MUST remain the same as before the wage hike.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:07
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Nonsense posted:
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Sep 5, 2014 18:07
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Samurai Sanders posted:Owning a fast food franchise would become less profitable, fewer people would go into that business, the growth of fast food restaurants would slow and....huh? I am failing to see the problem. Growth of fast food is not going to slow in the United States bub.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:08
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zxqv8 posted:So, in a rare moment of people actually talking about relevant stuff on FB, I saw a friend's friend trying to convince him that a minimum wage hike to $15.00 would cause fast food prices to rise precipitously. This link was provided: I love it when these assholes use Big Macs. That makes it so much easier to refute. $16.88 minimum wage in Australia. Big Mac literally one cent more expensive
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Sep 5, 2014 18:09
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There's this paragraph right after that lovely bar chart:The heritage foundation posted:"The higher labor costs would initially force fast-food restaurants to raise their prices by 15 percent, which would drive down sales by 14 percent. This would force restaurants to raise prices again, pushing sales down further. In equilibrium the average fast-food restaurant would have to raise prices 38 percent.[10] Prices would rise roughly twice as much as the initial increase in labor costs.[11] Total sales and hours worked would both fall by 36 percent. Fast-food restaurant owners would also have to accept a 77 percent reduction in profits in order to stay in business—leaving them with an average profit of just $6,100 a year per store. Otherwise they would have to raise prices to an extent that would drive away their customer base." That seems like assuming a worst-case scenario all around. Am I misreading it?
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Sep 5, 2014 18:10
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Nonsense posted:
I like that this graphic indicates workers would make about 32% more money each week due to the reduction in hours being more than compensated by increase in wages.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:11
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Good Citizen posted:I love it when these assholes use Big Macs. That makes it so much easier to refute.  zxqv8 posted:There's this paragraph right after that lovely bar chart:
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Sep 5, 2014 18:12
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Good Citizen posted:I love it when these assholes use Big Macs. That makes it so much easier to refute. I remember a radio piece I heard about the $15 minimum wage in Portland. This pizza owner was crying about how he was going to have to raise the price of a pizza by one dollar in this tone like they were asking him to cut off limbs. I was like, that doesn't sound so bad?
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Sep 5, 2014 18:12
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zxqv8 posted:There's this paragraph right after that lovely bar chart: Its retarded because if you follow its logic all fast food restaurants should have closed down decades ago or whenever we last raised the minimum wage.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:13
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zoux posted:I remember a radio piece I heard about the $15 minimum wage in Portland. This pizza owner was crying about how he was going to have to raise the price of a pizza by one dollar in this tone like they were asking him to cut off limbs. I was like, that doesn't sound so bad?
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Sep 5, 2014 18:14
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zxqv8 posted:There's this paragraph right after that lovely bar chart: Tons of people make $9/hr! How would they be able to afford the increased prices? They can barely afford a Big Mac as it is.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:14
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computer parts posted:Nonfederal loans were ~12-13% of all loans around 2001 so that seems unlikely. Hmm, well, that settles an old question (that is e/n material rather than D&D, oddly enough). Thanks.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:14
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zxqv8 posted:There's this paragraph right after that lovely bar chart: Ah, yes, raising your prices as a response to decreased demand in a market with tons of alternative products. That is a smart thing to do and doesn't conflict at all with the most basic supply and demand graphs these people love to point at.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:17
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Good Citizen posted:Ah, yes, raising your prices as a response to decreased demand in a market with tons of alternative products. That is a smart thing to do and doesn't conflict at all with the most basic supply and demand graphs these people love to point at. I think the standard response to this would be that all fast food places would be raising their prices as well, so they would remain competitive in that sense. Sounds like a weak argument, but I'm not sure how to refute it.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:21
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zxqv8 posted:I think the standard response to this would be that all fast food places would be raising their prices as well, so they would remain competitive in that sense. Sounds like a weak argument, but I'm not sure how to refute it. One place doesn't raise prices and sucks in a shitton of business because of it. e: Basically its in the best interest of restaurant managers to hold prices as close to their original points as possible until an equilibrium is restored and then adjust as needed. Prices will eventually go up a tiny bit but no where near as the right likes to paint it.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:22
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The free market reigns supreme and is the only way to have any kind of innovation at all, but adding or changing the slightest restriction will bring it all crashing down like the Hindenburg. Something something Umberto Eco something something
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Sep 5, 2014 18:22
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zxqv8 posted:I think the standard response to this would be that all fast food places would be raising their prices as well, so they would remain competitive in that sense. Sounds like a weak argument, but I'm not sure how to refute it. Somehow I doubt a universal raising of prices (if it even happened) would change the demand for food very much. People tend to need it
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Sep 5, 2014 18:23
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The Heritage Foundation's obsession with burger prices has rightly earned the United States the term "burger-land" on the internet.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:23
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zxqv8 posted:I think the standard response to this would be that all fast food places would be raising their prices as well, so they would remain competitive in that sense. Sounds like a weak argument, but I'm not sure how to refute it. Look at them incredulously and say, "Really?". If that doesn't work, say, "Look, for the moment let's simplify this down to an Econ 101 problem. If one actor didn't raise their prices, then people would naturally flock to them since the products are so poorly differentiated. All things being equal, people will go with the cheaper option. The person who doesn't raise the prices would see a huge increase in their demand and through economies of scale would do better. Everybody knows this, so no one will expose themselves to that kind of risk and raise their prices. And it won't be the end of the world, since we have already seen this play out in places like Australia."
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Sep 5, 2014 18:27
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I just hate how the debate is framed as a big mystery. Like we haven't raised the minimum wage multiple times in the past, and every time the right's doomsday scenarios prove to be bullshit.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:29
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But America is different, you see. Europe can get away with a lot of that kind of stuff because it is smaller and more homogeneous.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:30
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Funny how none of you seem to be addressing the loss in hours worked. Have fun working half the hours with your new higher minimum wage, assuming you still kept your job.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:34
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Amergin posted:Funny how none of you seem to be addressing the loss in hours worked. Half the hours but more money! Works for me!
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Sep 5, 2014 18:35
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Is that just based on the assumption that the owners of these restaurants would just immediately decide to gently caress their employees six ways from sunday? I mean, I guess that's not that unreasonable an assumption, given how they're behaving right now, but it seems impossible to prove.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:35
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Amergin posted:Funny how none of you seem to be addressing the loss in hours worked. If those businesses could operate with less hours or less employees then they would already be doing so.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:36
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Amergin posted:Have fun working half the hours with your new higher minimum wage
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Sep 5, 2014 18:36
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hangedman1984 posted:I just hate how the debate is framed as a big mystery. Like we haven't raised the minimum wage multiple times in the past, and every time the right's doomsday scenarios prove to be bullshit.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:36
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The protests sparked a gigantic min. wage debate happening on my facebook wall. The arguments against raising the wage fall into these categories:
I've weighed in a couple times on it but it just doesn't end. The whole embarrassed-millionaire mentality of "I worked hard to get to where I am" with the implied "(and therefore every poor person either don't work hard or will bootstrap into success in due time anyway)" is so very destructive.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:37
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