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GlyphGryph posted:Also, if anyone is a monster here, it's you. Dehumanizing children for systems problems is loving atrocious. They are products of their environment, and the fact that you seem to believe changing their environment through the application of disciplinary action would help curb them indicates you agree with that, so in reality you're just dehumanizing them for... shits and giggles I guess? We're talking about "people" who torment gay kids until they kill themselves, and then laugh about it. They pride themselves in it. They're monsters. It's bizarre to me that you'd defend them. If having no tolerance for bullying like these kids are receiving makes me a monster, then I'm happy to be one.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:08
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Talmonis posted:We're talking about "people" who torment gay kids until they kill themselves, and then laugh about it. They pride themselves in it. They're monsters. It's bizarre to me that you'd defend them. Congratulations on having zero idea of child cognitive development I guess.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:10
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twodot posted:Oh good, can you please go ahead and present the evidence telling you this is counterfactual? The entirety of psychological research governing human development? Just to be clear about what you're asking for here, you're asking for evidence that incentives and disincentives and adult expectations can modify the behaviour of children? Talmonis posted:We're talking about "people" who torment gay kids until they kill themselves, and then laugh about it. They pride themselves in it. They're monsters. It's bizarre to me that you'd defend them. Maybe you should find a couple 10-year-old bullies, and then you can torment them until they kill themselves. Will that make you happy? Because honestly, yeah, you seem like a pretty terrible human being! Next you'll be arguing we should just be straight up executing bullies, presumably because some kids were mean to you at school a long time ago (unless you're still in school? Actually, that might explain things too).
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Sep 11, 2014 18:10
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Stultus Maximus posted:Congratulations on having zero idea of child cognitive development I guess. I don't know about you, but I sure as hell didn't get my kicks growing up tormenting others until they kill themselves and being pleased with the result. I'd think behavior like that would be deemed aberrant. GlyphGryph posted:Maybe you should find a couple 10-year-old bullies, and then you can torment them until they kill themselves. Will that make you happy? Because honestly, yeah, you seem like a pretty terrible human being! Goodness, sounds like someone's special snowflake gets their rocks off by drowing cats and tormenting the small kid. Nowhere have I suggested that I want these kids harmed in any way (unless it's by their victims, in which case, good). They should simply be punished by the school system, or in the worst cases, by the juvinile court system. Also, listen to yourself. You're mocking the idea of bullying ("some kids were mean to you") when we're talking about kids being tormented into suicide. It's a big loving deal that needs to be handled. Talmonis fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Sep 11, 2014 |
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Sep 11, 2014 18:13
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DeusExMachinima posted:The ACLU: moral vacuum an-caps.. As an American I'd never seen hate speech laws defended in more detail because basically nobody here agrees with them, so it was a worthwhile discussion. Okay, here's a defense. I would argue that there is a qualitative difference between speech that attacks someone's beliefs - whether those beliefs are political, philosophical, ethical, moral, whatever - and speech that is clearly aimed at attacking someone for what they are, such as ethnicity, sexual preference, gender, sex, whatever. Speaking out against beliefs - such as your belief that it's fine and dandy that kids are driven to suicide by the latter type of speech - is an expression of political/philosophical disagreement, e.g. my opinion that holding the beliefs you do, makes you a moral vacuum. And I think we both agree that the former type of speech should be protected and inviolable. I should be free to disagree with you as to the state of your morals. And you should be free to call me an overly sensitive, opinion-policing runningdog of the tumblr-brigade if that takes your fancy. What should not be protected is the kind of speech you're defending here as perfectly okay, namely speech that attacks someone's very right to exist. Which hate-speech manifestly does. There is a difference between saying "I disagree with your opinion" ( no matter how crudely it's put ), and saying "I disagree with your very existence". It may well be that the person claiming all faggots are bound for hell/all kikes must be eradicated/white people are inherently superior/the poor should be enslaved or burned for fuel are sincerely holding those beliefs. It may well be that they are utterly convinced that they are doing their victims a favor in the long run. They may even be telling them this over and over and over out of a desire to help. That doesn't make their words anything less than an assault on the inherent humanity and dignity of their victims, and more importantly, it marks the victims out as acceptable targets. And this is where you do have a point. The preferred way to stop hate-speech, the ideal way, is with more and opposing speech. If someone steps up and shuts that poo poo down hard when it's just beginning, that can be the end of it. However, lovely as that ideal is, it almost never turns out that way in practice, does it? Minorities, whether ethnic or sexual, need better protections from the majority than simply the pious, naive hope that someone ( preferably someone else ) will be a decent human being and stand up for their rights. It's too easy to look the other way, to be grateful the baying, vicious bastards aren't focusing on you or on yours. Someone else will do the decent thing. Someone else will step up. Besides, you're not gay or black or part of whichever group is being targeted, so you don't have a dog in this fight. That is why minorities need protections enshrined in law, and why they to my mind absolutely do need an added protection from hate-speech; so that they have additional legal recourse in case someone doesn't do the decent thing and stand up for them. If someone does stand up and speak out, that's absolutely the preferable way to solve it. It just almost never loving happens until it's too late. TLM3101 fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Sep 11, 2014 |
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Sep 11, 2014 18:14
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The only way to prevent bullying is to homeschool so it becomes domestic violence instead.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:14
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GlyphGryph posted:Just to be clear about what you're asking for here, you're asking for evidence that incentives and disincentives and adult expectations can modify the behaviour of children? If you have some evidence that punishment reduces a reasonable proxy of bullying that seems ok too though. If you are going to assert your position is definitely true, I don't see the problem with asking you to produce even a single piece of evidence substantiating it.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:14
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I'm sorry that Kevin and his buddies stole poo poo from your locker and uploaded photos of you passed out with dicks drawn all over your face; it sure sucks to be you. What punish him? No you don't understand it's just child cognitive development.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:15
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Amergin posted:I don't think anyone's dehumanizing children He called them monsters and then put quotes around "people". In what world is that not an attempt to dehumanize?
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Sep 11, 2014 18:15
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Talmonis posted:I don't know about you, but I sure as hell didn't get my kicks growing up tormenting others until they kill themselves and being pleased with the result. I'd think behavior like that would be deemed aberrant. Further evidence that you have no idea how and why children think and act differently from adults. Ogmius815 posted:I'm sorry that Kevin and his buddies stole poo poo from your locker and uploaded photos of you passed out with dicks drawn all over your face; it sure sucks to be you. What punish him? No you don't understand it's just child cognitive development. Yes, that's definitely an argument someone made. You idiot. Just in case you forgot, Talmonis posted:Only terrible people are bullies. They're not products of their environment, they're not "misunderstood" and they're not "kids just being kids". They're monsters, and should be dealt with as such.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:19
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Talmonis posted:I don't know about you, but I sure as hell didn't get my kicks growing up tormenting others until they kill themselves and being pleased with the result. I'd think behavior like that would be deemed aberrant. Like so many things bullying is a symptom of underlying social ills that people are happy to ignore in favor of treating the symptoms.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:19
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JT Jag posted:Bullies become bullies for a reason. You didn't get your kicks tormenting others growing up, but then again you probably also didn't grow up with abusive parents, or in a broken home, or any other number of things children could be dealing with that they end up refocusing into bullying. Usually kids have *reasons* to bully others, perhaps to have something they control in their lives for once. There are few actual sociopaths who bully just for the fun of it. Unless they're black and then it's terrifying violence.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:21
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Samurai Sanders posted:I think for a lot of older people, bullying isn't even seen as a problem, societal or otherwise. It's just boys doing what boys do. Some of the worst bullying actually comes from and goes to girls, it just tends to be less physical and more emotional. But carry on assuming everything bad in the world comes from white males.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:25
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twodot posted:I'm asking for evidence that school punishment (punishment does not include incentives, expectations, or even many disincentives) reduces instances (behavior can be modified without reducing instances) of bullying (bullying is a specific form of behavior). https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/197436/DFE-RB098.pdf This study found sanctions (Defined as "Verbal reprimands", "serious talks" and "internal detention") to be "moderately effective". They did not have a large impact on their own, but were useful as part of a larger anti-bullying strategy. Most other processes required it as a backup to maintain effectiveness (obviously punishment is only as effective as the quality of the positive alternative being lost). Hardly proof, but certainly evidence. Psychologically speaking, operant conditioning has been shown to work on human beings in lots of different ways. The existence and feedback for Mavala Stop are evidence enough that punishment works to stop behaviour, in general, though obviously specific punishments can be entirely ineffective against specific behaviours (or in general) GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Sep 11, 2014 |
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Sep 11, 2014 18:26
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Amergin posted:Some of the worst bullying actually comes from and goes to girls, it just tends to be less physical and more emotional.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:27
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DemeaninDemon posted:The only way to prevent bullying is to homeschool so it becomes domestic violence instead. Makes it easier to score with the teacher at the very least.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:30
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The solution to bullying is obviously more seasons of Scared Straight.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:30
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Amergin posted:Some of the worst bullying actually comes from and goes to girls, it just tends to be less physical and more emotional.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:32
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JT Jag posted:My half-assed psychoanalysis of the root sources of bullying has this to say on female bullying: female bullies are generally more a result of parental neglect than full-on parental abuse. Female bullies tend to seek to get as much attention as they can, in order to gain something they never got at home. Once they develop a stable circle of friends they grow confident enough to openly reject anyone who they don't care for, even if it means being emotionally cruel. The kids I work with usually fall in the neglect or abuse categories of bully, but in other (richer, whiter) places there is also the "like parent, like child" aggression problem.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:42
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JT Jag posted:My half-assed psychoanalysis of the root sources of bullying has this to say on female bullying: female bullies are generally more a result of parental neglect than full-on parental abuse. Female bullies tend to seek to get as much attention as they can, in order to gain something they never got at home. Once they develop a stable circle of friends they grow confident enough to openly reject anyone who they don't care for, even if it means being emotionally cruel. Sure, but as I mentioned before a large portion of bullying is heavily influenced by child social hierarchy. You wear cheap clothes while I wear expensive clothes? You're obviously lower in the hierarchy and I will remind you and everyone around us of that. You're smart? I will make fun of you and call you "nerd" so I can maintain the hierarchy in the face of a mismatch in a skillset. You're gay? You're a weird outsider and I will remind you and everyone around us of that to maintain the current in-group/out-group status quo (partly to prevent the "weird" thing from being a "cool different" thing). Parents influence a child's values system, sure, but that value system bubbles up in social hierarchy and the resulting bullying within its own ecosystem in school. EDIT: I'm not saying it's one or the other, I'm just saying fixing the problems at home for a few key problem children won't necessarily change the system of bullying and its causes within the school. So as I mentioned before, throwing a child into detention for enforcing his/her hierarchy will likely just make them resent the authority and blame the victim rather than teach them that their hierarchy is bullshit because a child's brain isn't developed enough (in most cases) to connect the dots of consequences and change their own behavior. GlyphGryph posted:
Operant conditioning is useful only if it's consistent and long-lasting, neither of which are attributes of school punishment.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:43
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Amergin posted:But carry on assuming everything bad in the world comes from white males. Well it's a pretty safe assumption and hasn't steered us much wrong yet.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:45
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Amergin posted:Operant conditioning is useful only if it's consistent and long-lasting, neither of which are attributes of school punishment. It also really falls apart when used on conscious decision-making processes after a pretty young age since humans have the ability to reflect on events, causes, effects, and make decisions.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:46
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I remember my little brother was ostracized in 6th grade after some assholes spread rumors about how he starred in some porn videos. I remember picking him up from school once and seeing a bunch of girls from his class just glaring at him. He says that when he went to the principal about it, the first thing he was asked was "so is it true you were in porn videos?" and he took it as victim blaming.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:46
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I think we should all take a short break from the conversation to listen to Papa Roach and think about middle and high school. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yERDDbP53Sw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2Wwt6a5zjw
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Sep 11, 2014 18:50
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Swan Oat posted:I think we should all take a short break from the conversation to listen to Papa Roach and think about middle and high school. They would also like to remind you about 9/11.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:53
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Stultus Maximus posted:but in other (richer, whiter) places there is also the "like parent, like child" aggression problem. This one is more of a problem. At least it was to me and those I grew up with. Then you get to deal with them in the business world, as they don't really change much with age.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:57
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Swan Oat posted:I think we should all take a short break from the conversation to listen to Papa Roach and think about middle and high school. I'm glad I was in college before they were a thing I could hear on the radio.
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Sep 11, 2014 18:57
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Stultus Maximus posted:The kids I work with usually fall in the neglect or abuse categories of bully, but in other (richer, whiter) places there is also the "like parent, like child" aggression problem. This is fascinating to me, because I've often when I was younger perceived that the bullies at my school that were wealthier had good relationships with their parents seeing them being look about as normal as my own relationship with my parents, where as I know in one instance another person who bullied me early in schooling, and I've recently met again, but have made amends, says he had a very rough childhood as his parents had tried giving him up to several relatives. Am I off base there?
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Sep 11, 2014 19:00
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Nonsense posted:This is fascinating to me, because I've often when I was younger perceived that the bullies at my school that were wealthier had good relationships with their parents, where as I know in one instance another person who bullied me early in schooling, and I've recently met again, but have made amends, says he had a very rough childhood as his parents had tried giving him up to several relatives. Am I off base there? There are a lot of factors that cause bullying, a lot of combinations of factors. It's not something you can predict or pin on just one surface observation.
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Sep 11, 2014 19:02
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Stultus Maximus posted:There are a lot of factors that cause bullying, a lot of combinations of factors. It's not something you can predict or pin on just one surface observation.
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Sep 11, 2014 19:03
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The Senate just failed to invoke cloture on S.J. Res. 19, the Campaign Contribution Constitutional Amendment by a vote of 54-42.
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Sep 11, 2014 19:31
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Joementum posted:The Senate just failed to invoke cloture on S.J. Res. 19, the Campaign Contribution Constitutional Amendment by a vote of 54-42. Totally didn't see that one coming.
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Sep 11, 2014 19:37
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Joementum posted:The Senate just failed to invoke cloture on S.J. Res. 19, the Campaign Contribution Constitutional Amendment by a vote of 54-42. I thought the GOP plan was to allow a vote on it and then use it as "Democrats are against free speech and the 1st Amendment" campaign propaganda?
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Sep 11, 2014 19:39
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radical meme posted:I thought the GOP plan was to allow a vote on it and then use it as "Democrats are against free speech and the 1st Amendment" campaign propaganda? Didn't poll well enough. Easier to understand 'money out of politics' than 'money is freedom of speech in politics.'
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Sep 11, 2014 19:41
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radical meme posted:I thought the GOP plan was to allow a vote on it and then use it as "Democrats are against free speech and the 1st Amendment" campaign propaganda? The plan was to vote for the MTP so that three days of the Senate calendar got eaten up, then vote against cloture, and then use it as "Democrats are against free speech and the 1st Amendment" campaign fodder.
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Sep 11, 2014 19:41
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DeusExMachinima posted:"Hate speech has caused folks to kill themselves" and "don't respond to words with censorship" aren't mutually exclusive views. It does clarify what forms of harm you do or do not care about, however. That doesn't touch on the fact that hate speech laws are justified on the basis that third parties react to hate speech with violence against the targets of the hate speech in question.
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Sep 11, 2014 19:53
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Joementum posted:Ted Cruz and pops did not get a warm reception at the Middle Eastern Christian support gala last night. I don't know why this post didn't get more love from you guys but it deserves some. Ted, and apparently his daddy, got booed off the stage at a In Defense of Christians summit in D.C. Why, you ask? Because he intentionally incited the crowd which included Arab Christians. quote:Cruz declared that "Christians have no greater ally than Israel" during his keynote address at a summit in Washington, D.C. hosted by the nonprofit group In Defense of Christians, according to the Daily Star, a Lebanese English-language newspaper. He began by emphasizing the need to defend Christians in the Middle East against terrorism and unite Christians and Jews. Also on the Ted Cruz front. In a stunning departure from business as usual, Ted Cruz and Mike Lee have announced that, "they would vote against any unanimous consent agreements on nonemergency legislation after Election Day." radical meme fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Sep 11, 2014 |
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Sep 11, 2014 19:54
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Stultus Maximus posted:I'm glad I was in college before they were a thing I could hear on the radio. They didn't have radios at the college you went to?
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Sep 11, 2014 20:27
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comes along bort posted:They didn't have radios at the college you went to? Marconi followed up his first trans-Atlantic transmission of "S" shortly thereafter with "...uffocation, no breathing,"
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Sep 11, 2014 20:38
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comes along bort posted:They didn't have radios at the college you went to? Well I had college radio then.
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Sep 11, 2014 20:40
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