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You guys are a super fun group to listen to and I'm glad your are doing another campaign I can follow! I was on the fence about D&D Next because of those jerks but now I'm not buying or playing anything with their names on it. The thing I always tell my players if they want to be Punchy Fist is to be a Swordsage. Shoot, I just tell any person that wants to use a weapon to be a Tome of Battle class since they are the best because they are the coolest.
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Sep 11, 2014 00:29
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Nihilarian posted:Let's be fair: Paladins can deal a heck of a lot of damage through charging, so they don't really have any problems with their role (which is dealing damage). There was a post here about Barbarians and this ubercharger build and that ubercharger build but...ugh, never mind. Forget it. I'm just gonna say that Wizards already have, like, three-and-a-half save-or-die spells just at level 1, and that number only grows. That's my real point. That's 3.5's real problem. From the very start primary caster classes already have the ability to just snap their fingers and potentially wreck an otherwise balanced encounter using a single mechanical ability. We can argue about the core martial classes' relative ability to deal damage, but the Wizard just put the entire enemy force to sleep. SweaterGear posted:You guys are a super fun group to listen to and I'm glad your are doing another campaign I can follow! The Tome of Battle is legitimately my favorite 3.5 book just for how much it helps anyone who ever wants to use a sword to hit things.
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Sep 11, 2014 00:56
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I am aware of some of the balance problems among classes in this game. I will be taking steps to mitigate this. Please do not worry.
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Sep 11, 2014 01:35
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TCat posted:In the Next Playtest packets Monks were actually pretty okay...if literally the only thing you judge the quality of a Monk on is the Flurry ability, which even in 13th Age despite the creators saying "It's more useful than the other options due to drawn out battles" is still not actually that great in the damage department. You are forgetting that Monk fist damage increases as they level and that they can use Monk Weapons while Still flurrying which pretty much adds bonus damage. Added on they get quite a few other things like the make your heart explode move.
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Sep 11, 2014 02:16
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MonsterEnvy posted:You are forgetting that Monk fist damage increases as they level and that they can use Monk Weapons while Still flurrying which pretty much adds bonus damage. Added on they get quite a few other things like the make your heart explode move. SOME monks get this, the two other monk subclasses just learn to cast spells.
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Sep 11, 2014 02:23
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medibot posted:I am aware of some of the balance problems among classes in this game. I will be taking steps to mitigate this. Please do not worry. I now read everything you write in Larry Larrycola's voice.
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Sep 11, 2014 02:33
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I read most of what he types as Miriam's voice, still. All of the cacophony of voices in Medibot's head are pretty cool, though.
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Sep 11, 2014 03:06
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As bad as 3.5's balance is, Next doesn't actually seem to be much better, so I really doubt we'd have to worry about the change suddenly breaking the game. It also doesn't seem like you guys are following Next that closely, and I expect the same level of ignoring the rules for fun in 3.5, so the change is pretty much a non issue to me.
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Sep 12, 2014 03:01
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MonsterEnvy posted:You are forgetting that Monk fist damage increases as they level and that they can use Monk Weapons while Still flurrying which pretty much adds bonus damage. Added on they get quite a few other things like the make your heart explode move. Yeah but the best Monk Weapons, at least in Pathfinder, do just as much damage as unarmed damage at level 1 (1d6). So it's not really worth bothering acknowledging them. I don't know if that's different in 3.5 Also that still doesn't make Flurry being a Full Round Action worth it. Loki_XLII posted:As bad as 3.5's balance is, Next doesn't actually seem to be much better, so I really doubt we'd have to worry about the change suddenly breaking the game. It also doesn't seem like you guys are following Next that closely, and I expect the same level of ignoring the rules for fun in 3.5, so the change is pretty much a non issue to me. No they were following Next, they were just using the final playtest rules because the Players Handbook wasn't out yet. Also with how different the final playtest and the product itself came out, Next has been deemed the name for the playtest, and 5e is the name of the actual edition. And yeah 5e's balance is essentially like 3.5s but they try to make up for this by using the Advantage/Disadvantage system. Which is essentially you roll 2 Dice if the DM thinks it fits, and if you have Advantage you take the Higher Number, and if you have Disadvantage you take the lower number. This gets rid of mechanics like Flanking so you don't end up with the 4e "Conga Line of Death" which is like a row of people flanking each other because why would you not do that. I never saw that actually happen with a longer line than 4 in the Something Awful let's play of 4e, but apparently people thought it was an issue. As for ignoring rules in 3.5 there's no reason to because there's so many splat books and supplements it makes up for problems in that department. Monks will always be shafted, but Tome of Battle made it easier for them to not get owned before they punch Wizards into mist (which is one of the few things they are strategically effective at).
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Sep 12, 2014 03:51
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TCat posted:
I kind of stopped paying attention to 5e a few playtests in, but what I meant by not following Next was that they seem to be doing a lot of ignoring rules here and there, or just going with what seems fun and easy instead of making sure, compared to the 13th Age LP where they seem to make more of an effort to actually follow the games rules.
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Sep 13, 2014 02:50
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TCat posted:Yeah but the best Monk Weapons, at least in Pathfinder, do just as much damage as unarmed damage at level 1 (1d6). So it's not really worth bothering acknowledging them. I was talking about 5e here. Though I did have quite possibly the most broken monk in a 3.5 game I ran. Partly my fault because I allowed him to become a half golem. Which jacked up his absurd AC to like 40 or so and gave him near total immunity to magic. Game ended soon after this happened. TCat posted:
My major regret is that they stopped with 5e before they actually got out of the playtest.
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Sep 13, 2014 03:31
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MonsterEnvy posted:Though I did have quite possibly the most broken monk in a 3.5 game I ran. Partly my fault because I allowed him to become a half golem. Which jacked up his absurd AC to like 40 or so and gave him near total immunity to magic. Game ended soon after this happened. Well we all read why they did it, no point crying over it now. ...What the hell is a half golem? Loki_XLII posted:I kind of stopped paying attention to 5e a few playtests in, but what I meant by not following Next was that they seem to be doing a lot of ignoring rules here and there, or just going with what seems fun and easy instead of making sure, compared to the 13th Age LP where they seem to make more of an effort to actually follow the games rules. Nah they weren't really doing that, but I guess I can see where you got that idea? As for 13th Age, with the exception of the Montage System they adopted like around the late 30s, the rules are pretty good. No reason not to dodge around them.
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Sep 13, 2014 04:56
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TCat posted:Well we all read why they did it, no point crying over it now. Half-Iron Golem can get you +11 natural armor, so if his monk got 40 AC he'd need magic items, spells to increase AC, or a +15 bonus between Dex and Wis (with a -2 Dex from the template).
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Sep 13, 2014 05:11
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TCat posted:Well we all read why they did it, no point crying over it now. Indeed just a bit sad it won't happen. The future vids should still be enjoyable to watch anyway. Half Golem comment answered by the post above me. To which my excuse is that I was a new DM at the time.
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Sep 13, 2014 06:50
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Just catching up now, but, guess the dream of seeing a monk that is not just a dip class for an unarmed druid is dead. Though, 3.5e was always a system I liked just for the massive amount of classes you could play. Now if only someone in the game can be convinced to play a Truenamer... 
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Sep 15, 2014 00:22
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Brassherald posted:Just catching up now, but, guess the dream of seeing a monk that is not just a dip class for an unarmed druid is dead. Though, 3.5e was always a system I liked just for the massive amount of classes you could play. I've been down that road, brother. It's a road paved with awesome fluff and flavor, and terrible, terrible disappointment in the crunch.
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Sep 15, 2014 01:04
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Night10194 posted:I've been down that road, brother. It's a road paved with awesome fluff and flavor, and terrible, terrible disappointment in the crunch. To be fair, if you were prepared to break the skill system in half over your knee (and it was not very hard to do so), you could actually make a truenamer fairly effective. They had some very nice buffs. Particularly when paired with casters. Also, that one prestige class that let you order meriliths around was amusing, given that they had at-will blade barrier.
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Sep 15, 2014 01:44
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I will note is that the True Namer calass works a lot better when given to villains. Mainly because there powers work much better against PC's then monsters.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:05
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 Session 3.5-1: The First Taste of 3.5 Dungeoning Our heroes have entered a beetle cave, joined by a snake woman a bunny princess, a cleric minotaur and a golem with an ultrahand and somehow the strangest thing they deal with is the 3.5 ruleset. [Character Profile Added To inventory]  PRAUSIA (Poorweather) Wizard of unfortunate constituation. She's a powerful Yuan-ti mage who travels the world helping those in need. Her kindness and generosity is only matched by her inability to take a hit.
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Sep 15, 2014 19:26
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Prausia is adorable.
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Sep 15, 2014 19:53
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Oh god, I'm only a few minutes in and already I'm getting 'nam flashbacks to my old 3.5 elfgame group. "Labyrinthine 3.5 nightmare roll rules" is basically accurate. I remember combat rounds that took literally a half hour.
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Sep 15, 2014 20:05
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Oh man, are Palla and Rockmeats Tome of Battle classes? I never did get around to reading that, they sound amazing. Also, MonsterEnvy posted:Prausia is adorable.
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Sep 15, 2014 20:19
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What almagamation of classes is Kit? Because I don't think it's working well for her.
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Sep 15, 2014 20:20
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Prausia is adorable, but it makes me wonder how she even managed to get to the cave in the first place. Are we really sure she's not a beetle in disguise? Or that she wasn't born/hatched in that cave?djw175 posted:What almagamation of classes is Kit? Because I don't think it's working well for her. Princess and bunny.
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Sep 15, 2014 20:26
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gnome7 posted:Oh man, are Palla and Rockmeats Tome of Battle classes? I never did get around to reading that, they sound amazing. Yes! Palla is a Swordsage now! The class is pretty neat and Gharbad is super good at helping me learn about it even though it's kind of complex for my level of tabletop experience. I will probably post a character sheet later? Please enjoy our adventures in Beetle Dungeon I had a very good time during this session.
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Sep 15, 2014 20:31
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I love how this LP is adorable characters, 13th age is picking rogues and now looking back, original LP DnD is psychopaths and bananaramawitz
lenoon fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 20:57
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What I've gather from this episode is that 3.5 is perhaps overly complex.
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Sep 15, 2014 21:42
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Prausia is the cutest Six Feats Under character yet. Nicely rounds out the usual tabletop cast of murderhobos. Not to say the established characters amount to nothing more than murderhobos. They just happen to all have predeliction toward killing people and being homeless.
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Sep 15, 2014 21:58
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Nothing says DnD party quite like dangling a bunny over an ankheg pit.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:00
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So yes. Rockmeats and Palla. Crusader and Swordsage. Tome of battle is pretty good. I could do a quick write-up of the crusader and swordsage, if y'all want, as well as what Rockmeats is doing in general. Because, of course, I have him planned to level 20.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:11
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A write up about each character would be nice. I found the mechanical aspects of this episode a bit overwhelming to be honest. Though the reason I enjoy this series (and the other SFU stuff is characters and story. Generally I couldn't care less about the actual system. Still it'd be nice to have a little crash course about how things work.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:18
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I'm not sure what class Kit is, but assuming it's a rogue of some sort, I think you multiplied her Sneak Attack damage on that crit. And yeah, 3.5 can get horribly complicated and fiddly, especially with a build like I imagine Kit has. You'd probably have more fun with a Martial Adept (like Palla and Rockmeats) or a mixed magic/martial class. Good luck, anyway. Dealing with LA sucks, poor Prausia. Did Yuan-ti have LA in 5e?
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Sep 15, 2014 22:24
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Nihilarian posted:I'm not sure what class Kit is, but assuming it's a rogue of some sort, I think you multiplied her Sneak Attack damage on that crit. Is LA even a thing in 5e?
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Sep 15, 2014 22:31
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djw175 posted:Is LA even a thing in 5e? The Monster Manual isn't out yet, so we don't really know. Was Prausia a Yuan-Ti before the edition switch?
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Sep 15, 2014 22:54
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D_W posted:What I've gather from this episode is that 3.5 is perhaps overly complex.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:58
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Want to very carefully pet that snake.
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Sep 15, 2014 23:00
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Before I get into what Palla and Rockmeats are, exactly, I think I want to do a little post about the best book in 3.5: The Tome of Battle. There are generally two camps when it comes to the ToB. 1) People who appreciate all the tools presented to make livelier, more interesting characters, with mechanical power to give martial classes the ability to meaningfully interact in combat in ways normally reserved for monsters and spellcasters. 2) goddamn idiots and loving grognards Those are the only two camps. If you don't like the ToB, you are wrong. To understand just how amazing the ToB is, we first need to understand part of why martial characters are so weak. Probably the best example of that is the 3.5 monk. Let's look over some of the monk's strengths: Monks are extremely fast Monks get an absurd number of hits Monks get up to 2d10 damage rolls. Monks get Wisdom and Dex to AC. Monks have really high touch AC. High Saving Throws Spell Resistance Can stun multiple times per day Now here's why most of that means nothing: First, you need to understand Monks are MAD as hell: Multiple Ability Dependent. They need strength for damage (and possibly attack), dexterity for AC (and possibly attack), wisdom for AC/stunning DC (and possibly attack), and constitution for being a front line fighter. That means everything they do, they do a little worse than a martial character or a spellcaster who is also attempting to do it. This isn't a jack-of-all-trades situation: if you're not able to focus on relatively few ability scores, your character simply won't succeed at much of anything. Rogues are more accurate, fighters will have higher AC AND be more accurate AND do more damage per hit, and you can forget them stunning as often as a wizard can. Monks are fast, and have an absurd number of hits. But: If you move, you can only do one attack as a standard action. Attacking more than once is a full round action! A monk cannot use both flurry of blows and move in the same round, without careful shenanigans. Every round, either their movement or their extra attacks are completely wasted. Monks get a lot of hits, but they have medium base-attack-bonus and, for a number of levels, take an attack penalty to use flurry of blows. Combine that with a middling str/dex/wis (whatever you're using for attack), and you're simply likely to miss a whole lot in one turn. Sure, monks get WIS and DEX to AC, but because they're MAD as hell, it won't give them the AC that just armor would. Monks start out with fairly low AC, and don't improve at the rate anyone else does. Their stun saves are based on Wisdom, which is probably starting on something like a 14-16 scale, and to use it they have to hit, first. Simply put, stunning with a monk is really unreliable. 2d10 Damage SOUNDS like a lot, but it’s nothing compared to someone using power attack with high strength, especially with a two-hander. Considering a monks strength is likely to be in the 14 range, we’re talking an average 11+2=13 base damage. A level 20 fighter is easily going to have 20 base strength (+5), which is multiplied by 1.5 with a two-hander (increase to +7), and can easily sacrifice more than 5 attack bonus for power attack (but we’ll assume 5) for a bonus 10 damage per hit. That’s already 17 damage, more than the monks average, and we haven’t taken into account weapon damage, stat increases from magic items (more efficient for a fighter), the higher strength of the fighter resulting in more power attacking (even more damage), and so on. The monk does very little damage when it hits compared to even the fighter. Just forget them coming close to a raging barbarian. So that leaves High Saves, Spell Resistances, High Touch AC, and High Movement Speed that aren’t at least mitigated. What does that result in? Now, sure, there are spells that can ignore saves, or ignore spell resistance, or don’t require a touch AC, but most spells require at least one of them, meaning: the monk’s greatest accomplishment is being the class most likely to survive a wizard’s opening salvo, other than a spellcaster. And then he can run the gently caress away. To be honest, there’s a lot more strikes against the monk than what I’ve said so far. A lot more. It’s entirely possible to have fun with a monk, but that usually involves heavy houseruling, silly templates, massive magic items, alternative rewards, or a combination of the above. The 3.5 swordsage, the Tome of Battle’s answer to the monk, works straight out of the box. Maneuvers, the abilities that allow the ToB classes to do what they do, will be covered more when I talk about Rockmeats and Palla proper. But, on a basic level, they are divided into Standard, Move and Swift actions, like 4e’s Standard/Move/Minor. Most of the attacks are Standard actions: this means that a swordsage can move and produce an effective attack in the same round! Movement maneuvers can create teleportation, flight, or burning ground, so you’re not as dependent on magic items. Maneuvers can counter or dispel magic! Many maneuvers are damaging, even if they’re just standard actions! They scale better, with more advanced maneuvers replacing older maneuvers! They give access to healing! They can force enemies to not get past them! They can do ability damage! They actually get access to abilities reserved for spell casters! Now, don’t get me wrong: Wizards, Clerics, Druids and Archivists are still in the top. But a Warblade, Crusader or Swordsage can definitely stand up with Beguilers, Bards, Duskblades and Psychic Warriors. Some builds can even stand with Sorcerers, Psions and Favored Souls. Simply put, you can interact with the game in meaningful ways past level six. Anyone who plays 3.5 should get Tome of Battle. It’s so chock full of good ideas, it’s crazy. Especially if you like 4e, because 4e built a lot from the ToB. Next Up: Rockmeats the Crusader, or how to do battlefield control as a 3.5 martial character.
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Sep 15, 2014 23:30
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It's weird: I love the ToB to bits and Swordsage is up there with Totemist (From Magic of Incarnum, another great book) for sheer number of 3.5 characters I created with it, but 4th edition just left me cold. I think the ToB style works better as an option amongst many, as with 3.5, than as the default for every type of character.
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Sep 16, 2014 00:03
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Tome of Battle is fantastic. It could have used some tighter editing in a few places, but it definitely deserved a Tome of Battle 2, and it's a shame we didn't get it. I also love Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum. Shame about the Truenamer and Soulborn, though.
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Sep 16, 2014 00:14
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djw175 posted:Is LA even a thing in 5e? It's not.
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Sep 16, 2014 00:40
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