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babypolis posted:Dark Souls has things like exploration and varied enemies and bosses and interesting poo poo to find and do, all important elements conspicuously missing from this game Isn't the entire conceit of the game that you explore planets, fight randomized monsters, beat bosses, and discover loads of dungeons and little microdungeons hidden around the place?
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Sep 15, 2014 20:38
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OwlFancier posted:Isn't the entire conceit of the game that you explore planets, fight randomized monsters, beat bosses, and discover loads of dungeons and little microdungeons hidden around the place? They are all boring because procedural content is garbage XboxPants posted:Maybe you're comparing it to Terraria too much. Sure, as far as we know your player character doesn't change as much as in Terraria. You don't get a crazy character upgrade that lets you explore a new type of environment. finding a hookshot, completely opening new avenues of exploration and movement: cool putting some ores and pressing a button so you can go to another boring planet with a different background: not cool
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Sep 15, 2014 20:40
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babypolis posted:They are all boring because procedural content is garbage Well, yeah, procedural content isn't as consistently good as handmade content, that's why we have developers to hand make content for games. But it's been consistently advertised as procedurally generated everything? Seems weird to get mad about that. I don't expect all the content to be great but the procedural generation will hopefully add replayability. You trade initial quality for hopefully more lasting quality.
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Sep 15, 2014 21:18
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OwlFancier posted:I also find it fairly cathartic to hit enemies with a sword and have them die, best example of that I could probably give is left 4 dead, where blowing away a dozen zombies with a shotgun blast is pretty fun from a sheer positive feedback standpoint. Unrelated to Starbound, but have you ever hear of Killing Floor, or it's upcoming sequel? Apparently in the Sequel Not Zombies as you increase the difficulty will not boost their health, but instead do things like crank up their AI aggression or unlock new attacks. Well that and "Now that we start you off with a class specific weapon instead of the same generic pistol, we can start off Wave 1 more crazy." EDIT: Wait, now that I reread the underlined part, it suddenly feels relevant. Though that would be a bit hard with traditional "Numbers go up" differences between one set of player gear and the next. Action games don't 100% translate to Exploration games, but still. Section Z fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 21:20
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Section Z posted:Unrelated to Starbound, but have you ever hear of Killing Floor, or it's upcoming sequel? Apparently in the Sequel Not Zombies as you increase the difficulty will not boost their health, but instead do things like crank up their AI aggression or unlock new attacks. Well that and "Now that we start you off with a class specific weapon instead of the same generic pistol, we can start off Wave 1 more crazy." Yes I played a fair bit of killing floor over the years. Popping the basic zombies in the head is a lot of fun in that. I'm looking forward to the sequel as long as they don't Red Orchestra 2 it up. Edit: Also yes that would be a pretty good option in starbound, more attacks per enemy and more aggressiveness for increased difficulty.
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Sep 15, 2014 21:25
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babypolis posted:They are all boring because procedural content is garbage What makes the new biomes & dungeons & microdungeons in Terraria inherently interesting & cool, but the new biomes, dungeons and microdungeons in Starbound are inherently boring and lame? I don't get it. Like, in Terraria, you find an underground house that has a cloud in a bottle in it, that then lets you move and explore in new ways and perhaps find new things, thus continuing the cycle. In Starbound, you find an underground challenge dungeon that has a bubble boost tech in it, that then lets you move and explore in new ways and perhaps find new things, thus continuing the cycle. It's exactly the same. Procedural is often lame & samey, true, but both games have a mix of procedural and hand-made content. And Starbound techs give you new abilities in the same way as Terraria accessories. Like, I sorta understand your complaint, I just don't understand why Terraria's design is any better. Section Z posted:Unrelated to Starbound, but have you ever hear of Killing Floor, or it's upcoming sequel? Apparently in the Sequel Not Zombies as you increase the difficulty will not boost their health, but instead do things like crank up their AI aggression or unlock new attacks. Well that and "Now that we start you off with a class specific weapon instead of the same generic pistol, we can start off Wave 1 more crazy." To bring it back around to relevancy, different monsters pieces in Starbound do have different types of attacks. And don't different biomes/planet types have different sets of monster pieces? In other words, as you get to new planet levels, the monsters would have new types of attacks? It's important to remember that "procedural" does not mean "completely random".
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Sep 15, 2014 21:41
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babypolis posted:Dark Souls has things like exploration and varied enemies, bosses, items and playstiles and interesting poo poo to find and do, all important elements conspicuously missing from this game . . .Are you sure you opened Starbound and not MSpaint? Because I have several different 'playstiles' based on what I manage to find. There are a big variety of creatures, and I've bumped into bosses before. I've found apex laboratories in need of exploration, as well as an alien temple of some sort. I've built myself back up from the stone age, using picks and then drills to gather what I need. I've explored asteroid fields and found pistols, laser rifles, blasters, crossbows, spears, swords, clubs, axes. . .the list goes on. babypolis posted:They are all boring because procedural content is garbage "Potentially unlimited content that can be tweaked and experimented with via the game designers or modders is garbage." ~Babypolis
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Sep 15, 2014 21:42
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What are the Missions mentioned in the last dev blog? Sidequests? Storyline?
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Sep 15, 2014 21:49
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That's actually what they have planned and I believe actually working in the Dailies. The different "parts" of the random monsters will give them different abilities, and some will be much more aggressive than others, especially as you travel away from the starting circle. Parts and colors will be tied to biomes so you won't often get the dudes who breathe ice or whatever in the magma zones. But then you run into the obvious problems of: 1. Dailies are garbo 2. There's a whole lot "planned" we're probably not going to see for a very long I support Chucklefish still and I'm still following the progress on the game, but I am kind of annoyed at how long it's taking them to push out another update. Not really annoyed even, just... I want to continue enjoying this game and I simply can't. It used to be that, whenever I was bored and waiting for the next update, I would work on my Race mod, but they're changing how mod compatibility works in the next update so unless I want to re-code almost everything I make I'm stuck waiting. There was a blog post detailing exactly how they're going to change it, but who knows if they're going to rework how that works before the next update, and also I can't test errors and bugs. E-Tank posted:"Potentially unlimited content that can be tweaked and experimented with via the game designers or modders is garbage." ~Babypolis lmao
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Sep 15, 2014 21:49
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Babe Magnet posted:lmao *shrug* Honestly I've gotten my money's worth from them. Everything else is just a bonus.
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Sep 15, 2014 21:55
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cool? that wasn't what I was laughing at but good job anyway, enjoying a thing E: the missions I think are what they're calling Quests. Unless they've moved on and are now calling Quests something different compared to Missions, in that case, ignore this E2: I'm trying to find where they referenced them before, but I'm pretty sure Missions are used with that hub thing to send you to like, "Pocket Universes", to make highly specialized Quests with a focus on atmosphere and exploration instead of collecting bear asses Babe Magnet fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 21:56
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XboxPants posted:What makes the new biomes & dungeons & microdungeons in Terraria inherently interesting & cool, but the new biomes, dungeons and microdungeons in Starbound are inherently boring and lame? I don't get it. I think the problem is the infinite worlds thing. There was more design involved with the biomes than with the different planets. Interesting enemies instead of just an infinite number of weird and boring mashups. Going into the corruption for the first time was kind of a big deal and the pace and enemies were completely different to anything you had seen before. In Starbound there isnt even a point to exploring a planet and fighting the enemies there because the best thing to do is just dig down for ore
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Sep 15, 2014 22:03
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Babe Magnet posted:cool? that wasn't what I was laughing at but good job anyway, enjoying a thing Bah, ignore me. Need more coffee. Sorry.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:03
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Babe Magnet posted:cool? that wasn't what I was laughing at but good job anyway, enjoying a thing Huh, neat, I never heard anything about any of this. I thought it was all like the stuff from the beta where you collect & craft stuff in the open world, like where you make the distress beacon to summon the UFO to get the computer chip spaceship core or whatever it was.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:03
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It could very well be that, or it could be a combo of both, I vaguely remember reading about it a while back and I'm digging around putting pieces together. I think it would be neat as hell if it was a combo of both. You collect stuff in the overworld by visiting themed dungeons (giving them an actual use) and then you put that stuff in your Stargate and that's what gives you missions.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:06
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However, we would need to see them implementing things beyond the nightlies before any of this matters. Or anything resembling an update.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:07
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I am 100% for that. I hate dealing with the Nightlies. There's a lot of cool stuff in there but man, I'm just going to read the wiki or whatever. I like changelogs for stuff I miss.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:09
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Update would be nice if possible, but I know readying a WIP for public release is a pain in the arse.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:12
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It has been over 6 months since the last update, time really is not an excuse at this point.
Afraid of Audio fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 22:14
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Starcitizenbound.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:16
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burying any sort of work behind two layers of experimental builds with no documentation whatsoever probably wasn't the greatest idea on their end, that much is sure
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Sep 15, 2014 22:16
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Afraid of Audio posted:It has been over 6 months since the last update, time really is not an excuse at this point. They work off of Valve time.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:18
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babypolis posted:I think the problem is the infinite worlds thing. There was more design involved with the biomes than with the different planets. Interesting enemies instead of just an infinite number of weird and boring mashups. Going into the corruption for the first time was kind of a big deal and the pace and enemies were completely different to anything you had seen before. In Starbound there isnt even a point to exploring a planet and fighting the enemies there because the best thing to do is just dig down for ore Oh, sure, if you're comparing where Starbound is at now, then Terraria is definitely streets ahead of it in these aspects. But I don't really feel like that comparison gives you any insight into the future of the game, or the strength of the design. Also - yeah, going straight for ore and ignoring everything else is the most efficient action, but if it's not a fun way to play the game then why are you making the choice to play like that? If you don't like rushing through games, then stop rushing through games. I'll never understand why people intentionally play games in a way that makes them unfun, yet you see it over and over again.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:18
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XboxPants posted:Oh, sure, if you're comparing where Starbound is at now, then Terraria is definitely streets ahead of it in these aspects. But I don't really feel like that comparison gives you any insight into the future of the game, or the strength of the design. Well, they DID mention they play to increase monster strength he deeper you go. But with spawn mechanics that would probably still be safer than traveling on the surface most of the time. Exploring and digging for or when monsters will kill you in less than three hits making you drop all your ore (which currently will despawn, last I read/heard regarding nightly), isn't a big leap from dying in three hits and dropping all your ore. Back when things simply murdered me fast while still having the 'proper' armor for an area (hello, projectile wildlife) but I got to keep my ore, I still tried to explore. Now that you drop everything relevant to progression on death in nightly though... Not really much rushing, it's more like slowly and carefully going a bit at a time because OOPS something touched me, hold on I need to stop eat 20 bandages (including waiting for them to heal me) or multiple banana breads because my Impervium armor Health pool only means an increase in downtime and resources to heal, not how long I can survive. EDIT: Evil Fluffy posted:Obsidian is not a made up fantasy metal and unless a recent update changed things, you can't mine it with the starting pickaxe. 
Section Z fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 22:27
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This game shoulda been cool, instead I've been played the fool. Fuckin' A, at least I get to have angry shits when I binge on fast food but ain't nothin good about dumpin $20 on this lovely poo poo pile. 21 cum gun salute in my eyes, every day that I click on this thread.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:28
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XboxPants posted:Also - yeah, going straight for ore and ignoring everything else is the most efficient action, but if it's not a fun way to play the game then why are you making the choice to play like that? Except that their new progression path keeps certain planets locked unless you progress to the next tier and those planets are generally the more interesting ones. The new garden world starter planets are, by all accounts, boring flat grassy plains with trees. And the only way to escape is to spend an hour tediously mining up the sparse copper, then making a pickaxe so you can go back and grab those deposits of iron you missed and make another pick out of that, then you have to mine to the center of your starting planet to get core fragments to fix your ship. Mining to the center of a planet in a game where mining is not only slow, but boring. Like, the tedium here isn't by my choice. It's being imposed entirely by the dev team and it kind of sucks. And I think that also undermines your point about the strength of the design, because there really isn't any. The game is built on a whole bunch of unfun sandbox game shibboleths and the nightly build just makes them more rigid and hard to ignore. That seems to be the story of nightly builds actually, taking an open world sandbox and making it more rigid and linear. NotALizardman fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 22:31
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Section Z posted:vvv We're comparing it to Terraria too much, because Terraria starts you off with a Pickaxe that can dig up everything but made up fantasy materials Obsidian is not a made up fantasy metal and unless a recent update changed things, you can't mine it with the starting pickaxe. 
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Sep 15, 2014 22:33
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Afraid of Audio posted:It has been over 6 months since the last update, time really is not an excuse at this point. I'm not sure that it benefits them to focus on Stable updates. I think they may actually be better off releasing main-branch updates in huge, meaningful chunks, like they're doing. Like, if it's going to be another six months before the game is really worth playing in a meaningful way, then it's better to just tell your players that, and let them take a break from the game. Otherwise, your entire playerbase is just grinding away at a jank-rear end beta that doesn't play very well and doesn't have much content. The players burn through the content real quick, and when they download the new update it's just six new monster pieces, tweaked armor values for the 35th time, and a bunch of behind-the-scenes changes. It's a cycle that very quickly leads to players getting bored of the game - just like what was happening before they went to the stable/nightlies cycle.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:34
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Also lets hope you don't die to some 1-tile poison pit deep below because when you die you drop your ore+bars and since there's no way to spawn anywhere but back on your ship you're not likely to be able to get back to your stuff before it despawns.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:36
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Seriously though, most of the complaints would go away if you could: 1) Mine twice (or three, or five times...) as fast as you currently do 2) Mine 4x4 instead of 3x3 since the character is four blocks tall 3) Have combat actually be balanced so it isn't rocket tag depending on which side outlevels the other I mean the game would still be sparse with a lot of unnecessarily tedious grindy bullshit, but the first two at least are completely trivial changes done by modders within the first week and there's really no excuse for things to be this awkward almost a year out from retail release.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:37
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Yes, instead of becoming bored they forget the game exists. Excellent.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:37
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NotALizardman posted:Except that their new progression path keeps certain planets locked unless you progress to the next tier and those planets are generally the more interesting ones. The new garden world starter planets are, by all accounts, boring flat grassy plains with trees. And the only way to escape is to spend an hour tediously mining up the sparse copper, then making a pickaxe so you can go back and grab those deposits of iron you missed and make another pick out of that, then you have to mine to the center of your starting planet to get core fragments to fix your ship. Mining to the center of a planet in a game where mining is not only slow, but boring. I haven't been checking out the nightlies but that does sound pretty tedious. Also the ore dropping thing is dumb and I hope they change it. XboxPants fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 22:37
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Afraid of Audio posted:Yes, instead of becoming bored they forget the game exists. Excellent. 
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Sep 15, 2014 22:39
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Afraid of Audio posted:Yes, instead of becoming bored they forget the game exists. Excellent. Actually, yes, I do think they'd be better off having fans that forgot about the game, rather than fans that got sick of the game and decided it sucks. That way, if Chucklefish ever gets a build they're confident in (if) and they want to do a PR campaign, they're just reminding lapsed fans, rather than trying to convince people that have come to hate it.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:43
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Asimo posted:Seriously though, most of the complaints would go away if you could:
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Sep 15, 2014 22:44
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The best mining tool was that one skull hammer that threw a bunch of bones, and for some reason it did a bunch of terrain damage that thing ruled
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Sep 15, 2014 22:46
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Babe Magnet posted:The best mining tool was that one skull hammer that threw a bunch of bones, and for some reason it did a bunch of terrain damage That's also why I have hope for the game. It is the dev team that brought us SKULLHAMMER. I am sure they can find some way to make the game fun.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:49
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Asimo posted:Seriously though, most of the complaints would go away if you could: I didn't even mind the mining speeds, I'm just Mad At Videogames over going from "This is the best open world digging I have ever heard of!" to "Whoa there buddy, you thought you could dig up iron for an ANVIL? You crazy. First you have to work your way up to copper and coal, THEN We'll talk about Iron and Gold." Only stuff that still felt tedious to me was "We're made 70% out of even harder than meteorite magma rocks" asteroid belts, even with a diamond drill. When asteroid belts were not spawnign me on the instant death border when I first arrive that is. I got real good, REAL fast with my grapple guns. Because I never did find flight techs, and enemies decided to learn wind gust spam when I went to asteroids. Rocket Tag in a big procedural exploration game seems questionable, but even Rocket Tag would be doable if you had any reasonable way to recover without dropping everything to heal up every time you get hit, and it only gets WORSE the better your armor is because your HP pool/Enemy damage outpaces even your high quality healing foods plantation home planet production. So many cool things and things done right. I obsess over the survivability/combat balance so much because it's really my only real 'issue' with the old stable and current development plan. Distaste for dragging out your digging progression aside. EDIT: Swapping between dual grappling hooks and my Huge Hammer while hurling myself through space with no saftey net but a double jump to smash space birds  ...Then finding 15 garbage guns before one "Well, this isn't WORSE than the one I currently use" gun in the copy/paste outposts  I obsess about the viability of crafted gear vs drop gear cause my luck is always atrocious when it comes to RNG equipment.
Section Z fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 22:51
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Isn't balancing numbers (how many hits a block takes to mine, how many hits a monster takes to kill, etc) often one of the later stages of game development? It just feels like that's not really what they're focusing on yet, based on their little daily dev updates. Like, they're still working on "threading issues with C++11 pointers" and creating new basic starter biome types, along with entire other systems like the player-owned stations, so it doesn't worry me that they're not working on tweaking numbers yet.
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Sep 15, 2014 23:11
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Perhaps we could speculate on this type of thing if they had an update.
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Sep 15, 2014 23:13
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